Infield fly: Tag runner going back to 1st, touching the base is not enough?

This topic contains 14 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  garywill 2 years, 3 months ago.

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  • #171148

    joe0x7f
    Participant

    Infield fly situation.

    Runners take a large lead off 1st and 2nd bases. Ball is caught by 2nd baseman and thrown to first baseman before the runner on 1st gets back to 1st base.

    Does the 1st baseman have to tag the runner and not just the base to get the runner out?

    #368151

    typikon
    Participant

    Treat this like any other tag up appeal.

    #368152

    mturman
    Participant

    @joe0x7f 203723 wrote:

    Infield fly situation.

    Runners take a large lead off 1st and 2nd bases. Ball is caught by 2nd baseman and thrown to first baseman before the runner on 1st gets back to 1st base.

    Does the 1st baseman have to tag the runner and not just the base to get the runner out?

    What would remove the runners obligation to run the bases, or in your OP, tag legally?

    Aloha,
    Mike

    #368154

    Richard_Siegel
    Participant

    @joe0x7f 203723 wrote:

    Infield fly situation.

    Runners take a large lead off 1st and 2nd bases. Ball is caught by 2nd baseman and thrown to first baseman before the runner on 1st gets back to 1st base.

    Does the 1st baseman have to tag the runner and not just the base to get the runner out?

    The runner is out the moment the ball is received by the firstbaseman while he is in contact with the base, if it is before the runner can get back to the base. Be advised this is an appeal play and retiring a runner this way, even though it might look like one, it is NOT a force out.

    Of course, anytime a runner is tagged with a live ball while off his base he would be out.

    #368169

    mturman
    Participant

    @richard_siegel 203727 wrote:

    Of course, anytime a runner is tagged with a live ball while off his base he would be out.

    I beg to differ…

    Working a Legion game a few years back…R1 stole second base…bad throw with SS receiving it…Who, while attempting to catch the ball had contact with the runner who had safely and easily reached 2nd base…

    The momentum of the SS upon receiving the ball took him into the runner who staggered back 2-3 steps…where the SS promptly tagged him for an out.

    I ruled safe…HC came out…as he approached he asked the SS if he applied the tag…He said yes…HC looked at me…I responded, “Yes he did coach…But it was the SS momentum that pushed him from the base in the first place”…HC turned around and walked away without another word…

    Post game he came by and said he seen it but wanted to give me some shit and see what I would say…

    Aloha,
    Mike

    #368171

    Richard_Siegel
    Participant

    @mturman 203745 wrote:

    I beg to differ…

    Working a Legion game a few years back…R1 stole second base…bad throw with SS receiving it…Who, while attempting to catch the ball had contact with the runner who had safely and easily reached 2nd base…

    The momentum of the SS upon receiving the ball took him into the runner who staggered back 2-3 steps…where the SS promptly tagged him for an out.

    I ruled safe…HC came out…as he approached he asked the SS if he applied the tag…He said yes…HC looked at me…I responded, “Yes he did coach…But it was the SS momentum that pushed him from the base in the first place”…HC turned around and walked away without another word…

    Post game he came by and said he seen it but wanted to give me some shit and see what I would say…

    Aloha,
    Mike

    Perhaps I should have written: ” anytime a runner is LEGALLY tagged with a live ball while off his base he would be out.”

    It is illegal to push a runner off a base to tag him. Your suggested play was not a LEGAL tag. Thus, it was essentially not a tag at all.

    A better argument would be to suggest the situation where a BR has just hit safely and reached 1B. He overruns the bag, stops and then begins to return to the base (making no attempt to advance to second base). The defense believes he had made an attempt to advance to second base and an infielder puts a tag on him with the live ball before he can return to first base. That BR is not declared out. How do we explain that one?

    #368173

    kengibes
    Participant
    Richard_Siegel;203747 wrote:
    P
    A better argument would be to suggest the situation where a BR has just hit safely and reached 1B. He overruns the bag, stops and then begins to return to the base (making no attempt to advance to second base). The defense believes he had made an attempt to advance to second base and an infielder puts a tag on him with the live ball before he can return to first base. That BR is not declared out. How do we explain that one?

    How about, “Any runner who is in jeopardy of being put out is, in fact, out if he is tagged with the ball while not in contact with a base that he is entitled to occupy.”

    That covers legal tags and regular plays. It also covers appeal plays where the runner has not yet returned to the base where his base running infraction occurred, and it covers tags of runners who were obstructed and would be protected. It also covers runners who are advancing after a balk has been called but haven’t advanced beyond the base they would be awarded. It also addresses the runner who is not protected when two runners occupy the same base. Is there anything else?

    #368176

    mturman
    Participant

    @richard_siegel 203747 wrote:

    Perhaps I should have written: ” anytime a runner is LEGALLY tagged with a live ball while off his base he would be out.”

    It is illegal to push a runner off a base to tag him. Your suggested play was not a LEGAL tag. Thus, it was essentially not a tag at all.

    A better argument would be to suggest the situation where a BR has just hit safely and reached 1B. He overruns the bag, stops and then begins to return to the base (making no attempt to advance to second base). The defense believes he had made an attempt to advance to second base and an infielder puts a tag on him with the live ball before he can return to first base. That BR is not declared out. How do we explain that one?

    Gotta gas you once in a while Rich:p

    Aloha,
    Mike

    #368177

    Rich_Ives
    Participant

    @richard_siegel 203747 wrote:

    A better argument would be to suggest the situation where a BR has just hit safely and reached 1B. He overruns the bag, stops and then begins to return to the base (making no attempt to advance to second base). The defense believes he had made an attempt to advance to second base and an infielder puts a tag on him with the live ball before he can return to first base. That BR is not declared out. How do we explain that one?

    No attempt to advance coach.

    #368178

    Rich_Ives
    Participant

    @mturman 203745 wrote:

    I beg to differ…

    Working a Legion game a few years back…R1 stole second base…bad throw with SS receiving it…Who, while attempting to catch the ball had contact with the runner who had safely and easily reached 2nd base…

    The momentum of the SS upon receiving the ball took him into the runner who staggered back 2-3 steps…where the SS promptly tagged him for an out.

    I ruled safe…HC came out…as he approached he asked the SS if he applied the tag…He said yes…HC looked at me…I responded, “Yes he did coach…But it was the SS momentum that pushed him from the base in the first place”…HC turned around and walked away without another word…

    Post game he came by and said he seen it but wanted to give me some shit and see what I would say…

    Aloha,
    Mike

    Or ask Gant and Hrbek. 🙂

    #368180

    mturman
    Participant

    @rich_ives 203754 wrote:

    Or ask Gant and Hrbek. 🙂

    Good one!

    For those that don’t know…

    https://youtu.be/MiraekmCNv4

    Aloha,
    Mike

    #368380

    garywill
    Participant

    @richard_siegel 203727 wrote:

    Be advised this is an appeal play and retiring a runner this way, even though it might look like one, it is NOT a force out.

    I haven’t been here in a while.
    Please elaborate.

    #368381

    Richard_Siegel
    Participant

    @garywill 203986 wrote:

    I haven’t been here in a while.
    Please elaborate.

    A force out occurs when a runner loses his right to occupy his base when the batter becomes a runner. Since the batter is out this is not the case when a runner is returning to retouch a base he IS entitled to occupy.

    #368387

    bobjenkins
    Participant

    @garywill 203986 wrote:

    I haven’t been here in a while.
    Please elaborate.

    “tagging the base” and “force out” are NOT synonyms. You can get a force out by tagging the base; not all acts of tagging a base (to get an out) result in a force out

    #368405

    garywill
    Participant

    Thank you.

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