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Unread 06-23-2010, 02:35 PM   #1
Dean
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Default Had a first last night

Varsity HS. (Yes, Iowa plays Summer HS ball)
4A schools, (biggest in Iowa), I was base umpire, first inning player #1 was used as a pinch run for visitors.
Top of the 10th (yes 10th, Home let an 11 point lead slip away in the top of 5.)
Visitors put #1 in to CR for F2. Home team comes out and brings it to the PU attention.

PU calls me up and explains the situation, ask me what we got. So I tell him Illegal substitute as per CR 7. so we call #1 out and resrict to the dug out.

Visting coach doesn't beleive us....
After the game he asked the Game managament (Home Team AD) to talk to us about the rule - he of course said no....but we did send the rule book with the AD and showed him the rule - he STILL didn't beleive it, gotta love coaches, show 'em the rule in Black and white and they still claim it is wrong. (No real incident with the coach, just was inappropriate actions.)

First time I have ever had an illegal substitute in a game.
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Unread 06-23-2010, 03:44 PM   #2
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Default Re: Had a first last night

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean View Post
Varsity HS. (Yes, Iowa plays Summer HS ball)
4A schools, (biggest in Iowa), I was base umpire, first inning player #1 was used as a pinch run for visitors.
Top of the 10th (yes 10th, Home let an 11 point lead slip away in the top of 5.)
Visitors put #1 in to CR for F2. Home team comes out and brings it to the PU attention.

PU calls me up and explains the situation, ask me what we got. So I tell him Illegal substitute as per CR 7. so we call #1 out and resrict to the dug out.
At what point did you notice #1 as the Courtesy Runner?
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Unread 06-23-2010, 03:51 PM   #3
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Default Re: Had a first last night

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Originally Posted by yawetag View Post
At what point did you notice #1 as the Courtesy Runner?
Lkie the OP said: "Home team comes out and brings it to the PU attention."
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Unread 06-23-2010, 03:52 PM   #4
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Default Re: Had a first last night

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Home let an 11 point lead slip away in the top of 5.)
.
Points?
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Unread 06-23-2010, 04:13 PM   #5
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Default Re: Had a first last night

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Originally Posted by Rich_Ives View Post
Points?
Right -> "Run"
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Unread 06-23-2010, 04:56 PM   #6
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Default Re: Had a first last night

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean View Post
Varsity HS. (Yes, Iowa plays Summer HS ball)
4A schools, (biggest in Iowa), I was base umpire, first inning player #1 was used as a pinch run for visitors.
It's pretty rare to have a PR in the first inning (barrng injury).

So, it doesn't surprise me that the coach didn't know the rule.

And, shame on PU for allowing the illegal CR. (Once he did, however, you got the call right.)
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Unread 06-23-2010, 05:43 PM   #7
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Default Re: Had a first last night

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Originally Posted by Rich_Ives View Post
Points?
Football is very big in Iowa. Sometimes football terms slip into the baseball world out there.
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Unread 06-23-2010, 05:52 PM   #8
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Default Re: Had a first last night

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Originally Posted by bobjenkins View Post
It's pretty rare to have a PR in the first inning (barrng injury).

So, it doesn't surprise me that the coach didn't know the rule.

And, shame on PU for allowing the illegal CR. (Once he did, however, you got the call right.)
Perhaps the HC thought the fisrt inning use of #1 was as a CR and not a PR and he screwed up when reporting it. It is very common for coaches to confuse the two situations get these terms mixed up. Several times a season I'll have a coach come out and say something like, "Davis is going to pinch run for Leonard." I'll look at my card and see Leonard is the pitcher or catcher. Then I'll ask him, "Is he a pinch runner or a courtesy runner?" To which he says, "Oh yeah, I meant courtesy runner." I had a guy once say, "What difference does it make?"

When I report the change to the other team I always explicitly say "Davis is going in as a courtesy runner for Leonard." or "Davis is going in as a pinch runner for Leonard." Instead of, "Davis is running for Leonard."

Last edited by Richard_Siegel; 06-23-2010 at 06:15 PM. Reason: fixed typo mispelled word
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Unread 06-23-2010, 05:57 PM   #9
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Default Re: Had a first last night

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_Siegel View Post
Perhaps the HC thought the fisrt inning use of #1 was as a CR and not a PR and he screwed up when reporting it. It is very common for coaches to confuse the two situations get these terms mixed up. Several times a season I'll have a coach come out and say something like, "Davis is going to pitch run for Leonard." I'll look at my card and see Leonard is the pitcher or catcher. Then I'll ask him, "Is he a pitch runner or a courtesy runner?" To which he says, "Oh yeah, I meant courtesy runner." I had a guy once say, "What difference does it make?"

When I report the change to the other team I always explicitly say "Davis is going in as a courtesy runner for Leonard." or "Davis is going in as a pitch runner for Leonard." Instead of, "Davis is running for Leonard."
I know what a courtesy runner is, but what the heck is a 'pitch runner' ?
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Unread 06-23-2010, 06:14 PM   #10
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Default Re: Had a first last night

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Originally Posted by BrianC14 View Post
I know what a courtesy runner is, but what the heck is a 'pitch runner' ?
A pinch runner is a baseball player substituted for the specific purpose of replacing a player on base.

I must have mistakenly done a "correct all" and clicked on the wrong word when I did my spell check. Thanks for pointing out the typo. I will fix it.
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Unread 06-23-2010, 07:17 PM   #11
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Default Re: Had a first last night

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_Siegel View Post
Perhaps the HC thought the fisrt inning use of #1 was as a CR and not a PR and he screwed up when reporting it. It is very common for coaches to confuse the two situations get these terms mixed up. Several times a season I'll have a coach come out and say something like, "Davis is going to pinch run for Leonard." I'll look at my card and see Leonard is the pitcher or catcher. Then I'll ask him, "Is he a pinch runner or a courtesy runner?" To which he says, "Oh yeah, I meant courtesy runner." I had a guy once say, "What difference does it make?"

When I report the change to the other team I always explicitly say "Davis is going in as a courtesy runner for Leonard." or "Davis is going in as a pinch runner for Leonard." Instead of, "Davis is running for Leonard."

I know this is the High School section, but we have umpires, players, and some coaches who participate in Fed-rule games in the spring (Jr High and High school) and LL-rule games in the summer (Junior/Seniors). So I also run into this same problem, except the coach will report a "pinch runner" or a "courtesy runner" when he means a "special pinch-runner". Like Richard, I always ask them to clarify what kind of replacement runner is being used, and I run into coaches who don't know that there aren't any "courtesy runners" under LL rules.
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Unread 06-24-2010, 03:48 PM   #12
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Default Re: Had a first last night

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean View Post
Varsity HS.

(Yes, Iowa plays Summer HS ball)
4A schools, (biggest in Iowa), I was base umpire, first inning player #1 was used as a pinch run for visitors.
1. Since this is Summer ball do the umpires keep track of the line-ups?

2. If so how did the PU on his line-up card report the following

A. Player number 1 entering game. Did he report as a CR or as a sub?
B. If he reported No 1 as a sub did the player who was being
substitutued for - re-enter?

In other words on his line-up card when Player number 1 came into sub he should have a line or "something" on the player who was being subbed for. If the starter re-entered then the sub is done for the day since only starters can re-enter.


Quote:
Visitors put #1 in to CR for F2. Home team comes out and brings it to the PU attention.
When the VM put in #1 as a CR for F2 how did PU record?

RE: if the PU did his job in the beginning as soon as the VM said "Blue I want #1 as a CR for my F2" the PU would have seen that player No 1 was already Crossed off on his card and therefore, not allowed.

The rule you quoted is correct BUT IMO, the REAL answer lies with the record keeping. Did the HT have player number 1 as a Sub and the VT had player 1 as a CR in inning 1?

Who has the Official book in case of descrepencies be it a scoring issue, player eligability etc.?

In Summary: since this is summer ball perhaps the PU did NOT record any changes or keep a line-up card at all for that matter.

Pete Booth
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Unread 06-24-2010, 04:16 PM   #13
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Default Re: Had a first last night

[quote=Pete_Booth;110139]
Quote:

1. Since this is Summer ball do the umpires keep track of the line-ups?

2. If so how did the PU on his line-up card report the following

A. Player number 1 entering game. Did he report as a CR or as a sub?
B. If he reported No 1 as a sub did the player who was being
substitutued for - re-enter?

In other words on his line-up card when Player number 1 came into sub he should have a line or "something" on the player who was being subbed for. If the starter re-entered then the sub is done for the day since only starters can re-enter.




When the VM put in #1 as a CR for F2 how did PU record?

RE: if the PU did his job in the beginning as soon as the VM said "Blue I want #1 as a CR for my F2" the PU would have seen that player No 1 was already Crossed off on his card and therefore, not allowed.

The rule you quoted is correct BUT IMO, the REAL answer lies with the record keeping. Did the HT have player number 1 as a Sub and the VT had player 1 as a CR in inning 1?

Who has the Official book in case of descrepencies be it a scoring issue, player eligability etc.?

In Summary: since this is summer ball perhaps the PU did NOT record any changes or keep a line-up card at all for that matter.

Pete Booth
Pete this ISNT summer ball this is the HS season. So the PU does keep line ups, I didnt look at the Line up to see how he recorded either.

The PR in the first inning was not for F1 or F2, and the player reentered. This was all illegal sub, only learning point is maybe the preventative umpiring on the CR, but I dont think the Visting Manager would have beleived us anyway...heck he didnt beleive us when he was shown the rule!
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