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Unread 08-24-2009, 06:09 PM   #1
mario
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Default obstruction sign

I was looking at this one:
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=4850243
Is bringing the two fist to the legs a common sign for obstruction?
Is it used since a long time?

Thanks
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Unread 08-24-2009, 06:42 PM   #2
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Default Re: obstruction sign

Quote:
Originally Posted by mario View Post
I was looking at this one:
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=4850243
Is bringing the two fist to the legs a common sign for obstruction?
Is it used since a long time?

Thanks
It's not an infraction signal so much as it is that the umpire is indicating to the defensive player that he threw his hip(s) into the path of the runner.

You can briefly see him point at the player, and I'm guessing he called "That's obstruction!", and allows the play to continue. If the runner had been safe at home, they'd ignore the obstruction. Since he was called out, they enforce the obstruction penalty. You can see the plate umpire call "out", then immediately he points at the plate and calls the runner safe.
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Unread 08-24-2009, 07:08 PM   #3
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Default Re: obstruction sign

Whose impressed the announcers correctly identified it as obstruction? Unlike the moron who titled the video on the website.
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Unread 08-24-2009, 08:48 PM   #4
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Default Re: obstruction sign

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Originally Posted by ump_24 View Post
Whose impressed the announcers correctly identified it as obstruction? Unlike the moron who titled the video on the website.
*Raises hand*
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Unread 08-25-2009, 06:50 AM   #5
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Default Re: obstruction sign

As far as the signal goes, Tim Tschida (3B Umpire) is one of the most "showy" umpires in the Bigs. So who knows what the hell he was trying to signal when he started touching his hips or whatever? As far as the mechanics during the play, they nailed it, and appeared to be by the book. This is a pretty solid video on how to enforce type B obstruction.
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Unread 08-25-2009, 07:33 AM   #6
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Default Re: obstruction sign

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Originally Posted by scumpire View Post
So who knows what the hell he was trying to signal when he started touching his hips or whatever?


As far as the mechanics during the play, they appeared to be by the book. This is a pretty solid video on how to enforce type B obstruction.
The matching of these two points had surprised me.
Thanks for explanations


By the side.
If UIC has signalized so quickly the OUT and immediately enforced the penalty, this means that UIC had realized DURING the play the 3rd BU's obstruction call.
But shouldn't be the 3rd BU to call TIME and enforce the penalty?
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Unread 08-25-2009, 01:23 PM   #7
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Default Re: obstruction sign

Quote:
Originally Posted by mario View Post
By the side.
If UIC has signalized so quickly the OUT and immediately enforced the penalty, this means that UIC had realized DURING the play the 3rd BU's obstruction call.
But shouldn't be the 3rd BU to call TIME and enforce the penalty?
Interference is an immediate TIME, Obstruction is a DDB, if the runner had obtained home safely, the obstruction would have been ignored.
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Unread 08-25-2009, 02:51 PM   #8
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Default Re: obstruction sign

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Originally Posted by nopachunts View Post
Interference is an immediate TIME, Obstruction is a DDB,.
That's OK, but it's not the answer to my question, sorry.


My question is concerning not about WHAT, but WHO normally must enforce the rule after the end of the play:
  • BU that has called the obstruction
  • or UIC that has called R3 out?
Similarly:
  • If BU calls a balk, who will send R1 to 2nd? (either DB or DDB the case): BU or UIC?
  • Overthrow called by UIC. Who will send BR to 2nd: BU or UIC?

Is this matter for the pregame conference between fellow umpires, or doesn't really matter?

Just to order my thoughts
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Unread 08-25-2009, 03:00 PM   #9
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Default Re: obstruction sign

Quote:
Originally Posted by mario View Post
The matching of these two points had surprised me.
Thanks for explanations


By the side.
If UIC has signalized so quickly the OUT and immediately enforced the penalty, this means that UIC had realized DURING the play the 3rd BU's obstruction call.
But shouldn't be the 3rd BU to call TIME and enforce the penalty?
UIC didn't "enforce" the penalty. U3 made his call, (and I'm betting he verbalized it loudly enough so that anyone on the field could hear it). At this point, the UIC knows what's going on, but they (correctly) let the play continue. UIC calls "Out" on the play at the plate.

If you watch the video carefully, you'll see U3 coming down the line, signaling/saying something to UIC... U3 has already pointed the runner to home - e.g., he's "protecting" that runner via the base award. It's at this point that U3 has enforced the penalty. UIC simply points at the plate to let the official scorer know to count the run, then he makes a "Safe" call so that everybody knows.
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Unread 08-25-2009, 03:05 PM   #10
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Default Re: obstruction sign

Quote:
Originally Posted by mario View Post
That's OK, but it's not the answer to my question, sorry.


My question is concerning not about WHAT, but WHO normally must enforce the rule after the end of the play:
  • BU that has called the obstruction
  • or UIC that has called R3 out?
Base umpire will call the obstruction and he will also make the award (as was done in the video). UIC's job is to change the call at home from 'Out' to 'Safe'. Had the runner been safe at home, no enforcement of the obstruction is necessary; it's just ignored.

Quote:
Similarly:
  • If BU calls a balk, who will send R1 to 2nd? (either DB or DDB the case): BU or UIC?
  • Overthrow called by UIC. Who will send BR to 2nd: BU or UIC?
BU calls a balk, then base umpire moves the runners up.
UIC watches ball go into DBT - he calls 'Time', and announces the base awards. In that situation, the BU can 'assist' with the award by keeping his eye on where the runners were at either Time of Pitch or Time of Throw.

Quote:
Is this matter for the pregame conference between fellow umpires, or doesn't really matter?
Having a pregame of this gets into the minutiae - but if there is some extra time, talk it over. What I don't like is, when I'm working the bases, and I happen to call a balk - I'm about to move the runners over, and then I hear from behind me, the UIC, barking out 'You, go to 3rd! You, go to 2nd!'. Hey, Chief, I can handle it just fine out here.
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Unread 08-25-2009, 07:40 PM   #11
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Default Re: obstruction sign

Long answer, big thanks!
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Unread 08-25-2009, 07:52 PM   #12
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Default Re: obstruction sign

Quote:
Originally Posted by mario View Post
The matching of these two points had surprised me.
Thanks for explanations


By the side.
If UIC has signalized so quickly the OUT and immediately enforced the penalty, this means that UIC had realized DURING the play the 3rd BU's obstruction call.
But shouldn't be the 3rd BU to call TIME and enforce the penalty?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nopachunts View Post
Interference is an immediate TIME, Obstruction is a DDB, if the runner had obtained home safely, the obstruction would have been ignored.
There are two types of Obstruction under OBR:

Type A: Immediate dead ball when a play is being made on the obstructed runner. Call Time and make the award.

Type B: Delayed dead ball (no extended arm signal as in FED, however, just point and say, "that's obstruction!") when no immediate play is being made on the obstructed runner. At the end of all playing action, call Time and make the award.

You have to immediately assess the situation and make the appropriate call depending on which kind of obstruction you have.
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Unread 08-26-2009, 12:39 PM   #13
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Default Re: obstruction sign

Quote:
Originally Posted by mario View Post
That's OK, but it's not the answer to my question, sorry.


My question is concerning not about WHAT, but WHO normally must enforce the rule after the end of the play:
  • BU that has called the obstruction
  • or UIC that has called R3 out?
Here's how it is supposed to work.

The BU makes the call of obstruction (in this case, Type B). Now play continues under delayed TIME (Dead Ball). In this case, R3 is heading home so whatever happens at home plate has to be signaled by the PU. If the runner is safe, that is signaled. If the runner is out, that is signaled. Now, because of the delayed TIME, the PU has to point up to the BU that made the obstruction call, then signal the runner as safe at the plate.

What confuses lay people is that the PU must make an initial call of what happened at the plate regardless of what the BU was calling up the line. This call determines if the runner is safe on the play (obstruction ignored) or out on the play but now safe because of the obstruction. It's very simple if you understand the rules and are trained properly as an umpire. It is confusing as hell if you are not an umpire (or a poorly trained one).

The worst thing the PU can do here is not make the out call and say that the runner was simply safe on the obstruction. The end result is the same but the official scorekeeper would go nuts! Yet, I have seen this exact scenario happen in many an amateur game.
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