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Unread 05-24-2009, 04:17 PM   #1
postman
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Default Is this a appealable play

Runner in rundown/pickle between 1st and 2nd. Runner is tagged with glove, BU declares him out. Coach wants to a appeal the play saying ball was in non-glove hand.

Can/Should the BU get help from the PU in this instance.

If BU refuses to allow appeal can/should the PU intervene (if it is an appealable play)?
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Unread 05-24-2009, 04:24 PM   #2
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Default Re: Is this a appealable play

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Originally Posted by postman View Post
Can/Should the BU get help from the PU in this instance.

If BU refuses to allow appeal can/should the PU intervene (if it is an appealable play)?
Yes the BU CAN get help from the PU if he decides he needs to. If he thinks he might have missed something. However he does not NEED to. As for the PU, there can be a "look" the PU gives the BU that says "dude, I have some info you might want in order to get this right" but in no way SHOULD the PU offer info that is not asked for.

The calling umpire should make the call and then decide, if asked, if they should get together with their partner.
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Unread 05-24-2009, 05:54 PM   #3
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Default Re: Is this a appealable play

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Originally Posted by postman View Post
Runner in rundown/pickle between 1st and 2nd. Runner is tagged with glove, BU declares him out. Coach wants to a appeal the play saying ball was in non-glove hand.

Can/Should the BU get help from the PU in this instance.

If BU refuses to allow appeal can/should the PU intervene (if it is an appealable play)?
1st: How does the BU NOT see that the ball is in the off [non-tagging] hand? If he doesn't [for reasons other than incompetence], how DOES the PU see this from his vantage of greater distance?

2d: If this happens to me [which G-d forefend] and I am somehow not 100% sure I know where the ball was, I am not "appealing", but I suppose that I would accede to the request that I go to my partner for more info; 'cause if Coach is right, this is one of those gross miss situations where I am the only person in the ball park who does not know I blew it - the ideal scenario for a get-it-right conference, complete w/ singing KumByYah, if necessary.
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Unread 05-24-2009, 06:17 PM   #4
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Default Re: Is this a appealable play

Postman... from past discussions about "getting help" there looks to be about three schools of thought:

School 1: If you have the position and angle that you're supposed to have, you shouldn't miss something like the ball not being in the glove. There are some umpires who simply don't ask others for help because it's THEIR call. Why ask another umpire to grab the dirty end of the stick?

School 2: Do everything you can to get the call right. This means asking for help if you have any doubt at all about the call, and intervening with your partner if you know that he is wrong. Getting the call right is the foremost objective.

Those two are at opposite ends of the spectrum. They both have arguable points. I think most umpires, however, fall into the last category:

School 3: If you are in the right position to make a call, and you saw the entire play, there's no reason to get help from another umpire. That umpire is usually much farther from the play with a worse angle and probably had other things to watch, anyway. However, if your positioning, angle, or inattentiveness may have caused you to miss something (i.e., pulled foot or swipe tag at 1b while you're in 'C', etc..), and you believe the other umpire may have had a better angle, go ahead and get his input. In the end though it's still YOUR call.

As far as intervening, this is the quickest way to become the pariah of your umpire group. If it's your partner's call, it's his call. If he doesn't ask you for help, you don't give it. And just as important...you support the call 100%. If a coach asks you to give the other umpire help, you don't say something like, "Hey, Bob, I wish I could, but it's his call." If your partner asks you for help, you tell him what you saw and let him decide whether his call stands or not.
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Unread 05-24-2009, 08:43 PM   #5
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Default Re: Is this a appealable play

Cbfould - I think BU missede it because Angle (or heck, maybe he didn't pay attention to the ball in the hand?!?). BU was RF side of play and closer to the foul line. And the other fielders in the run down probably got between him and the play. PU had clear angle to see the ball and ball was in right hand of fielder chasing him back down towards first. Just happened that way. And no other fielder's in way of PU as he was coming up the line to support the play as no other runners on base.

So, if coach asks BU and he says "i have a tag and runner out', and coach points out the ball in wrong hand. And BU says no, you can't appeal to PU because it my call, then PU can/should do nothing as well. If coach says not an appeal of judgement call, but appeal do to rule (ie, tagged with ball not glove), and BU still says "no, runner out", then PU still says essentially nothing, correct? Basically what I am understanding is PU's does not do anything unless BU actually asks for help - and in this case BU could have asked for help since it wasn't a 'judgement call. correct?
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Unread 05-25-2009, 04:50 AM   #6
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Default Re: Is this a appealable play

Yes, as the plate umpire in this scenario don't change anything unless the base umpire goes to you for help. If he is able to handle the situation with the coach and he ends up returning the dugout then leave it. Don't go changing an umpire’s call without him asking you for help.
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Unread 05-25-2009, 01:20 PM   #7
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Default Re: Is this a appealable play

Yes, the BU can, if he chooses, get help. No, by rule, the PU cannot overule the BU in this situation. Yes, I said "by rule" and here it is (emphasis mine):

Quote:
9.02(b) If there is reasonable doubt that any umpire’s decision may be in conflict with the rules, the manager may appeal the decision and ask that a correct ruling be made. Such appeal shall be made only to the umpire who made the protested decision.

9.02(c) If a decision is appealed, the umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision. No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it.

9.04(b) A field umpire may take any position on the playing field he thinks best suited to make impending decisions on the bases. His duties shall be to ... (3) Aid the umpire-in-chief in every manner in enforcing the rules, and excepting the power to forfeit the game, shall have equal authority with the umpire-in-chief in administering and enforcing the rules and maintaining discipline.
The only time the PU could "overule" the BU would be where two or more umpires made different decisions on the same play (a really big no-no, and the reason we have defined systems of responsibilities):

Quote:
9.04(c) If different decisions should be made on one play by different umpires, the umpire-in-chief shall call all the umpires into consultation, with no manager or player present. After consultation, the umpire-in-chief (unless another umpire may have been designated by the league president) shall determine which decision shall prevail, based on which umpire was in best position and which decision was most likely correct. Play shall proceed as if only the final decision had been made.
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Unread 05-25-2009, 02:01 PM   #8
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Default Re: Is this a appealable play

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbfoulds View Post
1st: how DOES the PU see this from his vantage of greater distance?
Depends upon the PU.

Assuming we only have the one runner in a "pcikle"

If I am the PU, I will go help my partner.

I will not say ANYTHING until I am in position. Once in position I will then let my partner KNOW he has help on the first base side. Something like "Richard I got the first base side" meaning we split the difference.

So it is possible for the PU to have a good angle on the "pickle" if he is helping out his partner.

As far as saying anything I would say NOTHING unless the BU asked me.

HOWEVER, if you do change the call it MIGHT not be the RIGHT call. How do we know the defense would not have recorded the out anyway meaning suppose the BU did signal safe No tag but the defense still made the play.

Once the BU said out the play stopped and the player headed back to the dugout. Now the BU does want to check with his partner who says NO the ball was in the other hand - NOW what.

If you put the runner back on base the DM is going to request TIME and plead his case.

That's why it is not a good idea to change calls.

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Unread 05-25-2009, 02:31 PM   #9
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Default Re: Is this a appealable play

I agree with Pete.

If I am PU, I am reluctant to advise the BU to change the call to "safe" in this situation, even if I clearly saw that the tag was made without the ball, if the defensive player relied upon the BU calling the out. If the defensive team could have continued pursuit in the run down and made the out, but stopped because of the "out" call, I do not think the call should be changed.
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Unread 05-26-2009, 04:35 AM   #10
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Default Re: Is this a appealable play

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Originally Posted by postman View Post
Cbfould - I think BU missede it because Angle (or heck, maybe he didn't pay attention to the ball in the hand?!?). BU was RF side of play and closer to the foul line. And the other fielders in the run down probably got between him and the play. PU had clear angle to see the ball and ball was in right hand of fielder chasing him back down towards first. Just happened that way. And no other fielder's in way of PU as he was coming up the line to support the play as no other runners on base.

So, if coach asks BU and he says "i have a tag and runner out', and coach points out the ball in wrong hand. And BU says no, you can't appeal to PU because it my call, then PU can/should do nothing as well. If coach says not an appeal of judgement call, but appeal do to rule (ie, tagged with ball not glove), and BU still says "no, runner out", then PU still says essentially nothing, correct? Basically what I am understanding is PU's does not do anything unless BU actually asks for help - and in this case BU could have asked for help since it wasn't a 'judgement call. correct?
This was NOT on a 90' field, right? Begins to get clearer-ish.

Nevertheless, the first problem was that the umpire HAS to know where the ball is. If he's "not paying attention" to that, he's not doing his job. I'm also having a problem with the concept of other players getting in the way - MOVE, dammit - if he saw a tag, he should be able to see the ball in the other hand; if'n he's not sure - "SHOW ME THE BALL" will solve that right away.

FWIW, I agree with those who have mentioned that the PU, if possible, is moving to take one end of the pickle, and on the small field, that'll give you the inside/outside coverage as well - wasn't clear [to me at least] from the OP that this was small-ball. Still, if both umps are working the pickle and one is blocked from seeing the tag [attempt], the other guy calls it, right? Can't call what you don't see.

OK, none of that is what actually happened; so in the end the real question is: BU screwed the pooch: what can be done about it?

1. If you are the O coach, by all means have a calm, reasonable talk with BU, along the lines of "Did you see that the ball was in the other hand: the one he DIDN'T tag the runner with?" Possible BU responses:
A. Yes, I did, it doesn't matter. [You protest, as this is a RULES error, not judgment]
B. No, I saw the ball in the glove. ["Are you sure? 'Cause I am 110 % sure it was in the other hand. Could you possibly see your way to asking your partner if he saw it?"]
C. Truthfully, I have no idea where the ball was. [A variation of YourResponse "B", potentially followed by "A"]
D. Sh!take mushrooms! Let me ask my partner what he saw.

2. And your real Q: as others have already posted, the PU cannot "overrule" BU, and PU should not "offer" information unasked except in VERY rare circumstances - so rare that those who said "never" are not wrong, just a bit conservative. If your BU is obstinate [won't talk to his partner under any circumstances [A thru D]] as well as incompetent, your screwed, sorry.
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Unread 05-30-2009, 04:20 AM   #11
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Default Re: Is this a appealable play

It was a 60/90 field, by the way since you asked. didn't say who I was in the OP, but will say I was not the BU. BU had bad angle by the time play was done and wouldn't agree to appeal to PU. Which is why the question - could PU step in or not if BU does not ask.

thanks for clarification - and it sounds like if BU does agree to ask for appeal, PU can do nothing. But the idea that PU can have a 'sign' worked out to say "hey, yea, you might want to ask me my opinion', is a good suggestion.
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Unread 05-30-2009, 05:09 AM   #12
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Default Re: Is this a appealable play

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Originally Posted by postman View Post
thanks for clarification - and it sounds like if BU does agree to ask for appeal, PU can do nothing. But the idea that PU can have a 'sign' worked out to say "hey, yea, you might want to ask me my opinion', is a good suggestion.
Wait, if the BU does agree to go for help from his partner then the PU can impart any info that will help the BU come to the correct call (what ever that may be). Otherwise PU does nothing.
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Unread 05-30-2009, 05:21 PM   #13
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Default Re: Is this a appealable play

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Originally Posted by postman View Post
...and it sounds like if BU does agree to ask for appeal, PU can do nothing.
I'm having a little problem with the use of the word 'appeal' when we're talking about a coach asking and umpire to get help from another umpire.

'Appeal' makes it sound like the person being appealed to is going to make a ruling or that he has the deciding opinion.

When an umpire goes for help, he's merely checking for any factors that he missed that would affect his call.

It's not really an 'appeal' in either the baseball sense or the judicial sense.
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