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Unread 04-05-2009, 01:14 AM   #1
DJohnBishop
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Default Bang Bang at 1B

I am in C with one out R1. Sharp hit ball to F6, he has not play at 2B, so he goes strong to first. Great throw, bang bang play. I take three or so quick steps towards first and get set to watch the play. I punch him out. I felt my timing was good. Not too quick, then the kid drops the ball. Literally, he shows no voluntary release. The ball basically just falls out of his mitt. So I eat the call, and change my call to safe.
HC makes a trip out to see me. Chirping that he dropped it while going to his glove. I said coach his other hand never even made a move to the glove. Coach was not happy but agreed and trotted back to his hole. I turned to jog back to my spot and thatís when I started thinking maybe I was too quick with my call. I have heard of many guys waiting until the first basemen goes to his glove to make a call. I specifically remember Richard Siegel describing his method for making calls and it was to watch the bag, hear the ball. Look up and see the voluntary release and make the call. Having said that, it seems like a long time. But I probably did rush the call based on what happened. Does everyone wait for the voluntary release at 1B before making a call?
Some guys will die with their original calls. But I am not that guy; I will take the heat and make it right. Our association has spoken about this a lot. Regardless what happens make it right. Did I do the right thing, and am I too fast based on the play description.
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Unread 04-05-2009, 02:24 AM   #2
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Default Re: Bang Bang at 1B

from your desciption dj,sounds like you were a little quick.richard is dead on for timing.it may seem like a long time,but it really is only a second or two
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Unread 04-05-2009, 02:35 AM   #3
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Default Re: Bang Bang at 1B

what were you doing in "c" with r1?
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Unread 04-05-2009, 05:33 AM   #4
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Default Re: Bang Bang at 1B

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Originally Posted by DJohnBishop View Post
I specifically remember Richard Siegel describing his method for making calls and it was to watch the bag, hear the ball. Look up and see the voluntary release and make the call. Having said that, it seems like a long time. But I probably did rush the call based on what happened. Does everyone wait for the voluntary release at 1B before making a call?
An easy way to rationalize slower calls on this play....

If you have a runner sliding into a tag at home, a crash, and then a cloud of dust, how long do you wait before making the call? As long as it takes to determine where the ball is.

On any play, you can't call an out until you are certain where the ball is. Safe calls are immediate on this play, but my out calls are only made after I verify F3 has secured the ball.
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Unread 04-05-2009, 08:38 PM   #5
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Default Re: Bang Bang at 1B

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Originally Posted by DJohnBishop View Post
I am in C with one out R1. Sharp hit ball to F6, he has not play at 2B, so he goes strong to first. Great throw, bang bang play. I take three or so quick steps towards first and get set to watch the play. I punch him out. I felt my timing was good. Not too quick, then the kid drops the ball. Literally, he shows no voluntary release. The ball basically just falls out of his mitt. So I eat the call, and change my call to safe.
HC makes a trip out to see me. Chirping that he dropped it while going to his glove. I said coach his other hand never even made a move to the glove. Coach was not happy but agreed and trotted back to his hole. I turned to jog back to my spot and thatís when I started thinking maybe I was too quick with my call. I have heard of many guys waiting until the first basemen goes to his glove to make a call. I specifically remember Richard Siegel describing his method for making calls and it was to watch the bag, hear the ball. Look up and see the voluntary release and make the call. Having said that, it seems like a long time. But I probably did rush the call based on what happened. Does everyone wait for the voluntary release at 1B before making a call?
Some guys will die with their original calls. But I am not that guy; I will take the heat and make it right. Our association has spoken about this a lot. Regardless what happens make it right. Did I do the right thing, and am I too fast based on the play description.

I think you know that voluntary release is NOT required for the fielder to complete the out. e has firm and secure possession of the ball while touching the base.

As you have mentioned, despite the fact that voluntary release is NOT required for a fielder to record an out on a force play when receiving a thrown ball, it is an excellent way to allow yourself to allow the whole play complete. Timing is proper use of the eyes. Proper use of the eyes is waiting see the WHOLE play, The whole play ends when there is no further possibility that the outcome of the play will change from what you have seen.

By waiting the fielder to pull the ball out of his mitt, you will have allowed the whole play to complete. However, the beauty of this mechanism comes when things go wrong or unexpected. If the fielder drops the ball while you are waiting for him to pull the ball out of his mitt, you will have waited long enough to judge whether it is a bobble (the runner is safe), a loss on the transfer (the runner is still out), or a clumsy drop that has happened well after the field showed firm and secure possession, which would have the runner still out.

I think you made the right call on this play: safe. What is troubling you is that you did not wait for the whole play to complete, so that you could have had the ability to make ONE call with more confidence.

Here is a great suggestion for anyone who has the problem. When you have a 100% routine play at 1B. i.e. the runner is out by 10 feet - no doubt about it, do this: Don't make a call. Everyone will know the BR is out, and nobody will wait for you call to be sure. Your call is basically pro-forma. Force yourself to wait for the BR to turn and head for his dugout AND wait for F3 to throw the ball to somebody. THEN make an "out" mechanic and a simple "He's out!" Then go back to your position. Doing this will feel very odd for a few times, but when you realize nobody is looking at you and nobody cares what you are saying, you will get over it. The repetition of learning to hold back your call so long will teach you to wait for the same cues on the close plays where you get excited and deliver a call too quickly. Try it.
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Unread 04-05-2009, 09:04 PM   #6
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Default Re: Bang Bang at 1B

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Originally Posted by TomClarke View Post
what were you doing in "c" with r1?

Wondering the same thing....
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Unread 04-05-2009, 09:56 PM   #7
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Default Re: Bang Bang at 1B

I agree with the others, tell us why you are in "C" with R1? I think this is why you had trouble with the call.
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Unread 04-05-2009, 10:32 PM   #8
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Default Re: Bang Bang at 1B

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_Siegel View Post
Here is a great suggestion for anyone who has the problem. When you have a 100% routine play at 1B. i.e. the runner is out by 10 feet - no doubt about it, do this: Don't make a call. Everyone will know the BR is out, and nobody will wait for you call to be sure. Your call is basically pro-forma. Force yourself to wait for the BR to turn and head for his dugout AND wait for F3 to throw the ball to somebody. THEN make an "out" mechanic and a simple "He's out!" Then go back to your position. Doing this will feel very odd for a few times, but when you realize nobody is looking at you and nobody cares what you are saying, you will get over it. The repetition of learning to hold back your call so long will teach you to wait for the same cues on the close plays where you get excited and deliver a call too quickly. Try it.
This is excellent advice - and it applies not only to a batter/runner going to first, but it also applies on virtually any calls on the bases, including pickoffs.
I only wish that Richard's post had had appeared sometime on Friday morning.... I was working the bases Friday afternoon with a RHP who had a VERY quick move to first base - and on several of them, I was allowing F1's quick tempo to induce my calls when he would throw over. Most were not close, but one happened that was close - and I (too) quickly called "Safe!" and sold the call - but the ball was on the ground. Sure, everyone knows he was safe, but I should have waited longer to make the signal. Had that call been an actual "Out!" - only after I'd made the call would the ball have been seen on the ground (so it cuts boths ways). Timing, timing, timing....
Thanks, Richard!
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Unread 04-05-2009, 10:44 PM   #9
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Default Re: Bang Bang at 1B

I am sorry. R1 and R3. The D was looking for a double play to get out of the inning. Having read all the posts.I guess I was too quick . I will work on this.

You guys are sharp. You picked up on that C thing real quick.NICE.

The only way I will get better is to listen to everyones advise. And give it a go.
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Unread 04-05-2009, 11:00 PM   #10
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Default Re: Bang Bang at 1B

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Originally Posted by DJohnBishop View Post
I am sorry. R1 and R3.
I'd still be in B in this sitch.
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Unread 04-06-2009, 12:00 AM   #11
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Default Re: Bang Bang at 1B

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I'd still be in B in this sitch.
me too
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Unread 04-06-2009, 01:19 AM   #12
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Default Re: Bang Bang at 1B

I believe I would be more comfortable in B, then in C with R1 & R3. But I was told C by our association, and thatís what I do. Are most of you in B for this?
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Unread 04-06-2009, 01:21 AM   #13
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Default Re: Bang Bang at 1B

Thank you Richard, I will give it a try.
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