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Unread 01-11-2009, 11:00 PM   #1
DJohnBishop
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Default Quiz question

Batter doubles but misses first base. "Time" is called. After the ball is put in play, the pitcher steps back off the rubber preparing to throw to first to make the appeal, R2 takes off for third on a steal. Instead of throwing to first, the pitcher throws to third attempting to retire R2, but R2 beats the throw. Can the defense now properly appeal at first base?
I got this one wrong on an umpire quiz I was taking. I thought if the offence initiated the play then the defense could react to that play without losing the right to appeal. Am I wrong on this? If so then a coach that is paying attention would really kind of mess you up. Per that logic, if a kid missed the plate and everyone in the park knows it. As soon as they start to appeal if you have a runner on any base you could tell him to just start running, so you give up the out on the base runner to keep the run that never touched the plate.
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Unread 01-11-2009, 11:10 PM   #2
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Cool Re: Quiz question

DJohnBishop,

Depends on the rule code.

OBR - the defense has lost its right to appeal because they attempted a "post continuous action" play prior to appealing.

NCAA - the defense has lost its right to appeal because, even though the offense initiated the play, a runner safely advanced. (I think - still pretty new to NCAA rules.)

FED - the defense has not lost its right to appeal because the offense initiated the play.

JM
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Unread 01-11-2009, 11:20 PM   #3
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Default Re: Quiz question

In Fed or NCAA you would be correct. In any OBR based system, you would be wrong. The way to avoid the runner taking off on you is either throw to second and tag the runner, announcing the appeal as you do. The other is to try and avoid having time called and live ball appeal it as the ball comes in from the outfield.
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Unread 01-11-2009, 11:59 PM   #4
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Default Re: Quiz question

Michael,

So under NCAA, the "runner advancing" exception in 8-6-b 5(b) doesn't apply because the defense never initiated an appeal? Is that correct?

JM
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Unread 01-12-2009, 02:34 AM   #5
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Default Re: Quiz question

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Michael,

So under NCAA, the "runner advancing" exception in 8-6-b 5(b) doesn't apply because the defense never initiated an appeal? Is that correct?

JM
In NCAA, the defense does not lose their right to appeal if the offense initiates a play. If the ball goes in DBT, then they lose their right. The runner being safe or out does not matter. If R2 is thrown out at third for out number three, the defense can still appeal his miss of first if it means taking a run or runs off of the board.
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Unread 01-12-2009, 03:47 AM   #6
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Default Re: Quiz question

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Originally Posted by CoachJM View Post
Michael,

So under NCAA, the "runner advancing" exception in 8-6-b 5(b) doesn't apply because the defense never initiated an appeal? Is that correct?

JM
The ball hast to remain in LBT
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Unread 01-12-2009, 04:49 AM   #7
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Default Re: Quiz question

In FED, can't the Head Coach simply ask for the appeal under a dead ball with no throw?
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Unread 01-12-2009, 12:17 PM   #8
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Default Re: Quiz question

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Originally Posted by HittingZone View Post
In FED, can't the Head Coach simply ask for the appeal under a dead ball with no throw?
Yes, the coach may appeal under dead ball in FED.
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Unread 01-12-2009, 07:07 PM   #9
KenGibes
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Default Re: Quiz question

In all three rules sets (OBR,FED,NCAA), the appealed runner can be retired by making the proper verbal appeal and then tagging the runner. So when the runner in the OP breaks for third, why does the umpire assume the pitcher is making an play on the baserunner rather than merely throwing the ball to F5 so he can apply the required appeal tag?

I admit that in the heat of the moment, the pitcher's intent is probably to retire the runner trying to advance. But this requires a bit of mind reading, right? So would it be improper to declare the runner out on the appeal? I mean, the verbal part of the appeal has already been made, so why can't I simply determine that the tag is the completion of the appeal?
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Unread 01-12-2009, 07:44 PM   #10
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Default Re: Quiz question

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenGibes View Post
In all three rules sets (OBR,FED,NCAA), the appealed runner can be retired by making the proper verbal appeal and then tagging the runner. So when the runner in the OP breaks for third, why does the umpire assume the pitcher is making an play on the baserunner rather than merely throwing the ball to F5 so he can apply the required appeal tag?

I admit that in the heat of the moment, the pitcher's intent is probably to retire the runner trying to advance. But this requires a bit of mind reading, right? So would it be improper to declare the runner out on the appeal? I mean, the verbal part of the appeal has already been made, so why can't I simply determine that the tag is the completion of the appeal?

I don't see in the OP where the "verbal part of the appeal has already been made" (in fact, the OP says just the opposit -- "to retire the runner"). In any event, an appeal must be unmistakeable (or something like that) -- and that's not likely given the scenario presented.
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Unread 01-12-2009, 08:22 PM   #11
KenGibes
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Default Re: Quiz question

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Originally Posted by bobjenkins View Post
I don't see in the OP where the "verbal part of the appeal has already been made" ...
After re-reading the OP, I agree. It says that the pitcher is preparing to make an appeal. If the appeal hasn't yet been verbalized, my point is moot.

However, if the pitcher had already voiced the verbal part of the appeal, then the runner takes off, I'd have to think a little bit if F5 ends up tagging the runner. Even if there's a run-down between 2nd and 3rd, who's to say the defense isn't attempting to tag the runner as the back-end of the appeal?
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Unread 01-12-2009, 10:04 PM   #12
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Default Re: Quiz question

If he threw to second and the runner breaks, then to make the appeal valid, he needs to then throw to first. If he throws to third or after the throw to second, they throw to third, then it is a play and the appeal is gone in OBR.
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Unread 01-13-2009, 01:30 AM   #13
KenGibes
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Default Re: Quiz question

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Originally Posted by mstaylor View Post
If he threw to second and the runner breaks, then to make the appeal valid, he needs to then throw to first. If he throws to third or after the throw to second, they throw to third, then it is a play and the appeal is gone in OBR.
I can see where it could be considered a "play", Michael, but tagging the player is absolutely valid when making an appeal so I don't think there's any restriction on what base you can or can't throw to. The umpire would have to divine the intent of the defense to make that call. If the verbal appeal has already been made, and the defense has to chase the runner down to tag him, that's part of the appeal, not a play. If the runner bolts when the defense goes to tag him, there's nothing that says that the defense has to abandon the attempt to tag the runner and, instead, tag the base the runner missed, is there?
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