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Unread 12-15-2008, 04:18 AM   #14
Rich_Ives
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Default Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstaylor View Post
Not by rule but certainly by practice. The purpose of the rule is to prevent a quick pitch by the pitcher. As long as the pitcher isn't acting like a pitcher off the rubber(coming set) or stepping on and pitching(quick pitch) then just use your catcher to correct it or use the BU.
The NFHS site has a 300+ thread that should have been about six posts. http://www.nfhs.org/cgi-bin/ultimate...;f=10;t=001547
Other than a don't do that you are grabbing an ugly end of a sztick.

FED and NCAA specify a penalty - OBR doesn't. I posted what Rodere says about it for OBR.

If you're gouing to debate - state a rules basis for your position.
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Unread 12-15-2008, 07:06 AM   #15
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Default Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

so wait. in HS its a ball or a balk depending on if runners are on and in NCAA its a ball?

Interesting.
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Unread 12-15-2008, 12:25 PM   #16
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Default Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

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Originally Posted by mstaylor View Post
He has an out because there was no balk so the pick-off is good. Rich, Please don't start the on the rubber/off the rubber argument here. It's 300+ posts on another board.
Mstaylor, I was hoping that newblue4co would have answered this. I wanted to know if he was calling the pick off an out or he was invoking another myth. But seeing as how you know what everyone is saying on every post, I withdraw my question. I shall sit and see what the "experts" have to say to this post.

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Unread 12-15-2008, 01:19 PM   #17
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Default Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

No, I was going to do the same thing until others stepped in. I like the idea of asking new guys to work threads without older guys correcting them until they make an obvious mistake. I thought he asnswered it correctly for the correct answer. When Rich brought in what I feel is a myth I tried to redirect the discussion. Try another newbe question and I will stand aside. I commend your efforts.
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Unread 12-15-2008, 02:29 PM   #18
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Default Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigUmp56 View Post
Lets see how some of our new to umpiring members would call this.


RHP straddles the rubber, with R3. F1 now leans toward the plate looking in to the catcher with his glove on his knee and the ball at his side. R3 takes a nice lead, and F1 stands straight up and picks him off.


Tim.
Ruling:

Balk

Rules to govern - 8.05(g) and 8.05 Comment

The INTENT on the part of F1 was to deceive R3 and he did it illegally.

F1 leaned in as to take his signs from F2 which is against the rules. Then he stood straight-up and picked off R3. This is similar to a quick pitch.

Balk under any of the 3 major rule-codes.

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Unread 12-15-2008, 02:40 PM   #19
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Default Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

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Originally Posted by mstaylor View Post
Not by rule but certainly by practice. The purpose of the rule is to prevent a quick pitch by the pitcher.
Really? Or is it to prevent F1 from picking off a runner who took a lead in the belief that F1 was on the rubber.

Consider RH F1 who slings the ball to first without taking a step. If he's off the rubber, then he needn't step, yet he's gained an advantage (a faster move, no step required). Is this the type of advantage intended to be allowed by rule?
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Unread 12-15-2008, 02:46 PM   #20
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Cool Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

I would concur with PeteBooth and his analysis.

It's not that the pitcher is taking signs while not engaged - in the general case, I agree with others who suggest "that's nothing". In this specific case, it's that he is pretending to be engaged with the intent of (illegally) deceiving the runner.

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Unread 12-15-2008, 03:41 PM   #21
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Default Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

Sorry guys,

I was duck hunting after I posted up and didn't check back on yesterday at all. I gave a quick answer without an explaination. I have r3 out on the pickoff. I didn't address a balk because I didn't think there was one. I have only been studying OBR until my FED rule book gets here.

Balks are another reason that I wanted to start at a lower level of baseball. I feel weak in my knowledge of them.
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Unread 12-15-2008, 03:51 PM   #22
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Default Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

okay maybe I am wrong, the OP does not say he was taking signs. I says that he was leaning toward the catcher. Agreed that as an umpire, you could make the assumption that he was taking signs, based on which position you are umpiring. What if the pitcher bent over to fake tying his shoe and threw out the runner? I think some deception is allowed in baseball. I know when I played my coach would of had me running laps at the next practice for not paying attention to the position of the F1's feet and got myself picked off.
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Unread 12-16-2008, 04:03 AM   #23
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Default Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobjenkins View Post
Really? Or is it to prevent F1 from picking off a runner who took a lead in the belief that F1 was on the rubber.

Consider RH F1 who slings the ball to first without taking a step. If he's off the rubber, then he needn't step, yet he's gained an advantage (a faster move, no step required). Is this the type of advantage intended to be allowed by rule?
Pretty much all runners are coached to not take their lead until F1 engages the rubber for this exact reason.
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Unread 12-16-2008, 04:54 AM   #24
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Default Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

I would say the runner needs to be aware whether the pitcher is engaged or not. You don't generally see this at better levels. At the lower levels the BU should say something to him. I'm not making a big deal out of it unless he is doing it consistantly.
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Unread 12-16-2008, 01:39 PM   #25
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Default Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

I'm in agreement with Mr. Booth. I have a balk for deceiving the runner.
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Unread 12-16-2008, 02:25 PM   #26
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Default Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

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Originally Posted by GoodCallBlue View Post
I'm in agreement with Mr. Booth. I have a balk for deceiving the runner.
And which part of 8.05 will you use?


Tim.
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