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Unread 07-10-2008, 03:31 PM   #1
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Default the latest variation

AmLg, OBR, RHP, leaning in taking signs. R1. Pitcher simply lifted his pivot foot up (kinda like a dog taking a leak), and spins on the heel of his free foot and throws to first. There was not a discernible step back with the pivot foot. Balk? No Balk? WTH was that? I did not call anything, caught me off guard. thanks ty
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Unread 07-10-2008, 03:37 PM   #2
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Default Re: the latest variation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ty
AmLg, OBR, RHP, leaning in taking signs. R1. Pitcher simply lifted his pivot foot up (kinda like a dog taking a leak), and spins on the heel of his free foot and throws to first. There was not a discernible step back with the pivot foot. Balk? No Balk? WTH was that? I did not call anything, caught me off guard. thanks ty
Balk. Right out of the book.
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Unread 07-10-2008, 03:44 PM   #3
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Default Re: the latest variation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ty
AmLg, OBR, RHP, leaning in taking signs. R1. Pitcher simply lifted his pivot foot up (kinda like a dog taking a leak), and spins on the heel of his free foot and throws to first. There was not a discernible step back with the pivot foot. Balk? No Balk? WTH was that? I did not call anything, caught me off guard. thanks ty

Hmmm...

So his pivot foot was still in the air when he threw it?
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Unread 07-10-2008, 03:48 PM   #4
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Default Re: the latest variation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ty
AmLg, OBR, RHP, leaning in taking signs. R1. Pitcher simply lifted his pivot foot up (kinda like a dog taking a leak), and spins on the heel of his free foot and throws to first. There was not a discernible step back with the pivot foot. Balk? No Balk? WTH was that? I did not call anything, caught me off guard. thanks ty
This is a balk for several reason. I will leave it to the other posters to tell you why.

You were caught off guard because the move was so unusual you have to process it it for a moment. When you finally decided it was a balk you felt that too much time had passed (even if it was 3 or 4 seconds) to call the balk. You felt it would have looked odd for you to call a balk in such a delayed fashision. Some coaches would come out and argue a call that was so delayed. So rather than look odd you let it go.

I have been there.

This goes for balks, interferences, obstruction, etc.... My suggestion to anyone who finds yourself in such a "freeze" only to realize that the call should have been made is to MAKE THE CALL anyway. It will look odd, yes that is true. And some coaches will harp on it. But it is much worse to let a violation go by unpenalized, then to call it a little late.

"Hey coach, I know I waited a few extra seconds to make the call. I had to think about it for a second to be sure. But it is the RIGHT call. It was a balk. Just because I didn't call it immediately does not mean we have to ignore it."

Once you get over the "freeze" on a situation you see for the first time, you will be able to call it in a more timely way the next time you see it. I know this works. I have "frozen" too. But I forced myself to make the call anyway, even thought it was a late call. It caused a little heat a few times but it made me better at recognizing the violation and calling it quicker the next time.
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Unread 07-10-2008, 03:50 PM   #5
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Thanks. My poor rationale of why i spaced this one out.
Last night's double header was a loonnngggg sumbit**. first game got started 45 minutes late. Team traveling from 3 hours away. Then the home team manager decides that yes we are going to play another full 7 inning game, (game 2) The visitors had to return home (another 3 hour drive), so they were pretty tired by inning 5 of game 2. I'd had spent 6 hours on my roof shingling, prior to my 90 minute drive over to the games, so i was whipped, plus i ended up with both plates (partner bailed on me), so at the end of 7 innings in game 2, score is tied, it is 10:45 pm, and I called it finished. Game ends in a tie. Got home at 12:30, got up this am at 5:30 to finish the roof. It is now nap time. : ) ty
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Unread 07-10-2008, 03:52 PM   #6
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Default Re: the latest variation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ty
AmLg, OBR, RHP, leaning in taking signs. R1. Pitcher simply lifted his pivot foot up (kinda like a dog taking a leak), and spins on the heel of his free foot and throws to first. There was not a discernible step back with the pivot foot. Balk? No Balk? WTH was that? I did not call anything, caught me off guard. thanks ty
In order to properly step off the rubber, the pivot foot must come to rest behind the rubber - that means some part of his foot has to be on the ground. If F1 is throwing from the rubber, the pivot foot must remain in contact with the rubber except for the last part of the 3rd to 1st move and the jump turn. In both cases, contact with the rubber is broken (permanent in the 3rd to 1st move and momentarily with the jump spin).
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Unread 07-10-2008, 03:57 PM   #7
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ty
Thanks. My poor rationale of why i spaced this one out.
Last night's double header was a loonnngggg sumbit**. first game got started 45 minutes late. Team traveling from 3 hours away. Then the home team manager decides that yes we are going to play another full 7 inning game, (game 2) The visitors had to return home (another 3 hour drive), so they were pretty tired by inning 5 of game 2. I'd had spent 6 hours on my roof shingling, prior to my 90 minute drive over to the games, so i was whipped, plus i ended up with both plates (partner bailed on me), so at the end of 7 innings in game 2, score is tied, it is 10:45 pm, and I called it finished. Game ends in a tie. Got home at 12:30, got up this am at 5:30 to finish the roof. It is now nap time. : ) ty
A perfect storm...
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Unread 07-10-2008, 08:46 PM   #8
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Default Re: the latest variation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzy
In order to properly step off the rubber, the pivot foot must come to rest behind the rubber - that means some part of his foot has to be on the ground. If F1 is throwing from the rubber, the pivot foot must remain in contact with the rubber except for the last part of the 3rd to 1st move and the jump turn. In both cases, contact with the rubber is broken (permanent in the 3rd to 1st move and momentarily with the jump spin).
Oz - interesting that you make the comment about coming to rest behind the rubber because I had a sitch in a 12U game last week that my partner and I may have kicked based upon that rule.

RHP, R3 & R1; I am BU and we have 12U playing on a high school field with shortened bases and pitching rubber - such that when I am in B, the rubber is so far in front of the HS mound, I can't see the rubber unless I am almost to the cutout or else practically standing next to the mound. In any case, the pitcher comes set, looks at R3 then apparently steps backwards with his pivot foot (toward 1st) to disengage the rubber, turns and fakes a throw over there. OC wanted a balk because the pitcher didn't step behind the rubber when disengaging.

I conferred with PU since I couldn't tell exactly what he did with his foot other than to see him pick it up and then pivot back. PU described the backwards (toward 1B) move but then said it was legal because when a 3rd to 1st move and fake is made, the pitcher doesn't step behind the rubber on that either. I bought it and so we ruled no balk.

Did we get it right or not? Would it make a difference if he had gone ahead and thrown to 1B?
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Unread 07-10-2008, 09:23 PM   #9
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Default Re: the latest variation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fritz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzy
In order to properly step off the rubber, the pivot foot must come to rest behind the rubber - that means some part of his foot has to be on the ground. If F1 is throwing from the rubber, the pivot foot must remain in contact with the rubber except for the last part of the 3rd to 1st move and the jump turn. In both cases, contact with the rubber is broken (permanent in the 3rd to 1st move and momentarily with the jump spin).
Oz - interesting that you make the comment about coming to rest behind the rubber because I had a sitch in a 12U game last week that my partner and I may have kicked based upon that rule.

RHP, R3 & R1; I am BU and we have 12U playing on a high school field with shortened bases and pitching rubber - such that when I am in B, the rubber is so far in front of the HS mound, I can't see the rubber unless I am almost to the cutout or else practically standing next to the mound. In any case, the pitcher comes set, looks at R3 then apparently steps backwards with his pivot foot (toward 1st) to disengage the rubber, turns and fakes a throw over there. OC wanted a balk because the pitcher didn't step behind the rubber when disengaging.

I conferred with PU since I couldn't tell exactly what he did with his foot other than to see him pick it up and then pivot back. PU described the backwards (toward 1B) move but then said it was legal because when a 3rd to 1st move and fake is made, the pitcher doesn't step behind the rubber on that either. I bought it and so we ruled no balk.

Did we get it right or not? Would it make a difference if he had gone ahead and thrown to 1B?
The pitcher can FAKE to any base but first from the rubber.
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Unread 07-10-2008, 09:23 PM   #10
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Default Re: the latest variation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dano
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fritz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzy
In order to properly step off the rubber, the pivot foot must come to rest behind the rubber - that means some part of his foot has to be on the ground. If F1 is throwing from the rubber, the pivot foot must remain in contact with the rubber except for the last part of the 3rd to 1st move and the jump turn. In both cases, contact with the rubber is broken (permanent in the 3rd to 1st move and momentarily with the jump spin).
Oz - interesting that you make the comment about coming to rest behind the rubber because I had a sitch in a 12U game last week that my partner and I may have kicked based upon that rule.

RHP, R3 & R1; I am BU and we have 12U playing on a high school field with shortened bases and pitching rubber - such that when I am in B, the rubber is so far in front of the HS mound, I can't see the rubber unless I am almost to the cutout or else practically standing next to the mound. In any case, the pitcher comes set, looks at R3 then apparently steps backwards with his pivot foot (toward 1st) to disengage the rubber, turns and fakes a throw over there. OC wanted a balk because the pitcher didn't step behind the rubber when disengaging.

I conferred with PU since I couldn't tell exactly what he did with his foot other than to see him pick it up and then pivot back. PU described the backwards (toward 1B) move but then said it was legal because when a 3rd to 1st move and fake is made, the pitcher doesn't step behind the rubber on that either. I bought it and so we ruled no balk.

Did we get it right or not? Would it make a difference if he had gone ahead and thrown to 1B?
The pitcher can FAKE to any base but first from the rubber.
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Unread 07-11-2008, 12:42 PM   #11
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Default Re: the latest variation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fritz
I conferred with PU since I couldn't tell exactly what he did with his foot other than to see him pick it up and then pivot back. PU described the backwards (toward 1B) move but then said it was legal because when a 3rd to 1st move and fake is made, the pitcher doesn't step behind the rubber on that either. I bought it and so we ruled no balk.

Did we get it right or not? Would it make a difference if he had gone ahead and thrown to 1B?
PU was wrong. The pivot foot moving toward first is not a legal disengagmenet.
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Unread 07-11-2008, 12:43 PM   #12
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Default Re: the latest variation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fritz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzy
In order to properly step off the rubber, the pivot foot must come to rest behind the rubber - that means some part of his foot has to be on the ground. If F1 is throwing from the rubber, the pivot foot must remain in contact with the rubber except for the last part of the 3rd to 1st move and the jump turn. In both cases, contact with the rubber is broken (permanent in the 3rd to 1st move and momentarily with the jump spin).
Oz - interesting that you make the comment about coming to rest behind the rubber because I had a sitch in a 12U game last week that my partner and I may have kicked based upon that rule.

RHP, R3 & R1; I am BU and we have 12U playing on a high school field with shortened bases and pitching rubber - such that when I am in B, the rubber is so far in front of the HS mound, I can't see the rubber unless I am almost to the cutout or else practically standing next to the mound. In any case, the pitcher comes set, looks at R3 then apparently steps backwards with his pivot foot (toward 1st) to disengage the rubber, turns and fakes a throw over there. OC wanted a balk because the pitcher didn't step behind the rubber when disengaging.

I conferred with PU since I couldn't tell exactly what he did with his foot other than to see him pick it up and then pivot back. PU described the backwards (toward 1B) move but then said it was legal because when a 3rd to 1st move and fake is made, the pitcher doesn't step behind the rubber on that either. I bought it and so we ruled no balk.

Did we get it right or not? Would it make a difference if he had gone ahead and thrown to 1B?
The explanation using the 3rd to 1st move is a moot point as this is the only move where F1 essentially is stepping of the front of the rubber to disengage. The rules are specific in that they use the words "backwards" and "back" when referring to stepping off the rubber to become an infielder. In your case, if you cannot see the rubber properly (?) you have to deal with the field's situation as best you can. Also, as stated by others, F1 cannot fake to 1st base from the rubber! So somehow, you are going to have to get a good look at F1's pivot foot on this move.
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Unread 07-11-2008, 12:55 PM   #13
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Bid F1 gain ground on his move to 1st?
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