Time play with Abandonment

HoosierBlue · 06-19-2008, 05:34 AM

OBR. R1 and R2 ... two outs. Both runners break on the pitch.
Batter hits a hot grounder up the middle ... ball deflects off F1 then hits R1 in the leg. BU makes BIG safe mechanic (which goes unnoticed by a frustrated R1). F4 picks up the loose ball and has no play at 1st or 2nd.

R1 rounds 2nd (touches the bag), pulls up, peels off and starts walking to the dugout (off comes the helmet) thinking he's out. Meanwhile, R2 crosses the plate.

At what point do you have abandonment on R1 and possibly a very angry offensive coach when you tell him the run didn't count?

Three steps? Six steps? As soon as you are convinced R1 gave himself up?

I don't need a HTBT reply ... I am asking for a clear guideline on when you judge abandonment.

rcaverly · 06-19-2008, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoosierBlue

Three steps? Six steps? As soon as you are convinced R1 gave himself up?

I'll go with door number three, Monty.

bobjenkins · 06-19-2008, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoosierBlue

Three steps? Six steps? As soon as you are convinced R1 gave himself up?

I don't need a HTBT reply ... I am asking for a clear guideline on when you judge abandonment.

One of the "authoritative opinions" says it's when the runner crosses the foul line. I think that's too far in amateur ball.

I do agree that it's a "call of last resort".

A similar scenario exists when BR doesn't run after a dropped thrid strike -- might the same guideline be used?

Dano · 06-19-2008, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoosierBlue

OBR. R1 and R2 ... two outs. Both runners break on the pitch.
Batter hits a hot grounder up the middle ... ball deflects off F1 then hits R1 in the leg. BU makes BIG safe mechanic (which goes unnoticed by a frustrated R1). F4 picks up the loose ball and has no play at 1st or 2nd.

R1 rounds 2nd (touches the bag), pulls up, peels off and starts walking to the dugout (off comes the helmet) thinking he's out. Meanwhile, R2 crosses the plate.

At what point do you have abandonment on R1 and possibly a very angry offensive coach when you tell him the run didn't count?

Three steps? Six steps? As soon as you are convinced R1 gave himself up?

I don't need a HTBT reply ... I am asking for a clear guideline on when you judge abandonment.

I have a legit question here:

Which side is his dugout?

Rich_Ives · 06-19-2008, 03:11 PM

A similar scenario exists when BR doesn't run after a dropped thrid strike -- might the same guideline be used?

OBR has it covered. Out if he leaves the dirt circle.

Used to be out when he enters the dugout or DBT - some orgs may still be using this version (LL does for example).

Richard_Siegel · 06-19-2008, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoosierBlue

OBR. R1 and R2 ... two outs. Both runners break on the pitch.
Batter hits a hot grounder up the middle ... ball deflects off F1 then hits R1 in the leg. BU makes BIG safe mechanic (which goes unnoticed by a frustrated R1). F4 picks up the loose ball and has no play at 1st or 2nd.

R1 rounds 2nd (touches the bag), pulls up, peels off and starts walking to the dugout (off comes the helmet) thinking he's out. Meanwhile, R2 crosses the plate.

At what point do you have abandonment on R1 and possibly a very angry offensive coach when you tell him the run didn't count?

Three steps? Six steps? As soon as you are convinced R1 gave himself up?

I don't need a HTBT reply ... I am asking for a clear guideline on when you judge abandonment.

One comment, if the BU made a BIG safe mechanic which went unnoticed, I assume there was not voice. When the BU realized thet runner did not see him, it would have been better to repeat the mechanic with voice loud enough for the runners to hear: "That's nothing! Play it!" Had the BU done that then the manager would have no complaint, what else coulf the umpires do?

On the other hand I'm sure neither umpire called anybody out. So a smart runner will not assume he is out and occupy a base until the umpires tells him to get off the field. Where were the base coaches looking? It is there job to look at the umpires for the runners to determine the status of the runners, out or not. The base coaches should have been telling the runners to get back on the base until the umpires make their rulings.

As for abandonment, it is all in the runner's body language. Let him take a few steps, but once you read the runner's body language and you judge he no longer believes he is a live runner, call him out.

ump49 · 06-19-2008, 04:10 PM

Did you partner sell the call once again after the runner gave any signal that he thougth he was out? If not I would be inclined to wait until the runner has crossed the plate. Why grab the crappy end of the stick?

HoosierBlue · 06-19-2008, 07:32 PM

This was a hypothetical sitch ...

There was a play in the 2007 NLCS (Stephen Drew was the runner) who stood up thinking he was out on a double play ball at 2B and he just walked in toward the 3B dugout. Kaz Matsui had been pulled off the bag and the call was SAFE. The middle infielders then tagged him out before abandonment was even an issue.

So for Dano, assume the 1st base dugout.
I do see your point ... if he kept walking in the basepath toward 3B, it is arguable that he is "deeking" the defense.

06-19-2008, 05:34 AM	#1
HoosierBlue Banned Regular Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 132 Rep Power: 0	Time play with Abandonment OBR. R1 and R2 ... two outs. Both runners break on the pitch. Batter hits a hot grounder up the middle ... ball deflects off F1 then hits R1 in the leg. BU makes BIG safe mechanic (which goes unnoticed by a frustrated R1). F4 picks up the loose ball and has no play at 1st or 2nd. R1 rounds 2nd (touches the bag), pulls up, peels off and starts walking to the dugout (off comes the helmet) thinking he's out. Meanwhile, R2 crosses the plate. At what point do you have abandonment on R1 and possibly a very angry offensive coach when you tell him the run didn't count? Three steps? Six steps? As soon as you are convinced R1 gave himself up? I don't need a HTBT reply ... I am asking for a clear guideline on when you judge abandonment.

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06-19-2008, 03:11 PM	#5
Rich_Ives All-Star Crew Chief Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Owego NY LL Posts: 2,499 Rep Power: 143	A similar scenario exists when BR doesn't run after a dropped thrid strike -- might the same guideline be used? OBR has it covered. Out if he leaves the dirt circle. Used to be out when he enters the dugout or DBT - some orgs may still be using this version (LL does for example).

06-19-2008, 04:10 PM	#7
ump49 Regular Join Date: May 2004 Location: Ottawa, Ontario Posts: 105 Rep Power: 25	Did you partner sell the call once again after the runner gave any signal that he thougth he was out? If not I would be inclined to wait until the runner has crossed the plate. Why grab the crappy end of the stick?

06-19-2008, 07:32 PM	#8
HoosierBlue Banned Regular Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 132 Rep Power: 0	This was a hypothetical sitch ... There was a play in the 2007 NLCS (Stephen Drew was the runner) who stood up thinking he was out on a double play ball at 2B and he just walked in toward the 3B dugout. Kaz Matsui had been pulled off the bag and the call was SAFE. The middle infielders then tagged him out before abandonment was even an issue. So for Dano, assume the 1st base dugout. I do see your point ... if he kept walking in the basepath toward 3B, it is arguable that he is "deeking" the defense.