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Unread 03-08-2012, 01:56 PM   #1
darronwlsn
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Default Tie goes to the runner?

FED RULES - I've read all the posts about how their is no such thing as tie goes to the runner and the runner must reach the next base BEFORE a fielder tags the runner or holds the ball while touching the base. But as I read the following there seems to be two different standards depending on if the runner is a batter-runner or a base runner:

Runner - Rule 8-4-2-J: Any runner is out when he fails to reach the next base before a field either tags the runner out or holds the ball while touching such base, after runner has been forced from the base he occupied.

No problem, the runner must reach prior to (so called tie goes to the defense).

However Rule 8-4-1-F :The batter-runner is out when after a dropped third strike or a fair hit, if the ball held by any fielder touches the batter before the batter touches first or if any fielder while holding the ball in his grasp, touches first or touches first base with the ball BEFORE the batter-runner touches first base.

These seems to have the burden on the defense (so called tie goes to the runner).

What am I missing? Besides speeding the game up and giving the call to the defense.
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Unread 03-08-2012, 02:07 PM   #2
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Default Re: Tie goes to the runner?

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Originally Posted by darronwlsn View Post
FED RULES - I've read all the posts about how their is no such thing as tie goes to the runner and the runner must reach the next base BEFORE a fielder tags the runner or holds the ball while touching the base. But as I read the following there seems to be two different standards depending on if the runner is a batter-runner or a base runner:

Runner - Rule 8-4-2-J: Any runner is out when he fails to reach the next base before a field either tags the runner out or holds the ball while touching such base, after runner has been forced from the base he occupied.

No problem, the runner must reach prior to (so called tie goes to the defense).

However Rule 8-4-1-F :The batter-runner is out when after a dropped third strike or a fair hit, if the ball held by any fielder touches the batter before the batter touches first or if any fielder while holding the ball in his grasp, touches first or touches first base with the ball BEFORE the batter-runner touches first base.

These seems to have the burden on the defense (so called tie goes to the runner).

What am I missing? Besides speeding the game up and giving the call to the defense.
I don't know what your missing!!!!!
There is no such thing as a tie.
Get that word out of your vocabulary.
The BR or runner must reach the base before he is tagged or forced out.
If you really think it is a tie, a tie is not beating the ball to the base.
When in doubt bang em out.
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Unread 03-08-2012, 02:20 PM   #3
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Default Re: Tie goes to the runner?

Semper - I shouldn't have used "tie" as the runner is either out or safe.

My question goes to R-8-4-1-F

The batter-runner is out when after a dropped third strike or a fair hit, if the ball held by any fielder touches the batter BEFORE the batter touches first or if any fielder while holding the ball in his grasp, touches first or touches first base with the ball BEFORE the batter-runner touches first base.

To me there appears to be two different standards used. One standard is for a batter-runner (R-8-4-1-r) and one is for a forced base runner (8-4-2-J)

Last edited by darronwlsn; 03-08-2012 at 02:38 PM.
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Unread 03-08-2012, 02:57 PM   #4
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Default Re: Tie goes to the runner?

@darronwlsn

It is a fair question. I will point you to a thread that will help with the disparity you have correctly identified in the rule.

http://umpire.org/vb/showthread.php?t=10145&page=1

This is what I learned.

Here is the TL;DR version:

1. Once upon a time, the OBR read one way for the BR and another way for a forced runner. The OBR recently fixed that and the two rules read the same.

2. NFHS has not made the same change.

3. None of that matters, because:

4. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principal says ties are impossible.

5. However, when two events occur within .04 seconds of each other, the human eye cannot discern which event occurred first. The Army study is cited in an article by Peter Osborne and exists behind the pay wall at Officiating.com.

6. So, there IS such a thing as a "perceived" tie, however proper game management dictates that the umpire acknowledge that even though 'perceived ties' are possible, real ties are not. If he fails to acknowledge this, he cannot maintain consistency in his calls.

7. Your partner, both coaches, the fat guy watching on his TV at home, all expect you to call the runner out. They may groan, but it certainly won't surprise them.


From Carl Chilress's outstanding Baseball Umpire's Encyclopedia ($17 @ Amazon)
Quote:
Editorial consultant for Referee magazine, Jay Miner, once argued convincingly that the biggest blunder
umpires make is failure to call outs at first. Blaine Gallant the former umpire-in-chief for the province of Nova
Scotia, once quoted on Officiating.com an MLB study that showed more than 90% of perceived ties are revealed
as "outs" when put under the microscope of the camera and computer.
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Last edited by sdix00; 03-08-2012 at 03:25 PM.
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Unread 03-08-2012, 03:06 PM   #5
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Default Re: Tie goes to the runner?

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Originally Posted by sdix00 View Post
@darronwlsn


7. both coaches, the fat guy watching on his TV at home, all expect you to call the runner out.
No they don't. That's why they yell "tie goes to the runner". DOH!
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Unread 03-08-2012, 03:15 PM   #6
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Default Re: Tie goes to the runner?

#8. HOPE, PRAY that Rich Ives is not the 1BC. If he is, say "Please refer to Heisenberg's Principle". If he is not the 1BC, say "Ball beat the runner."


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Unread 03-08-2012, 03:21 PM   #7
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Default Re: Tie goes to the runner?

SDIX - Thank you for the back round on OBR and how they fixed the discrepancy and hopefully FED will make the correction soon. I also googled H.U.P.

I just found this in Fed and this will close the book on my question:

There is a note at the very end of Rule 8-1 that states "NOTE - Unless awarded first base as above, a better-runner is entitled to first base only if he reaches it BEFORE being tagged out or thrown out."

This wording is in complete contradiction to 8-4-1-F but I'll take it.

Bottom line - if the Batter-Runner or Base Runner doesn't beat it - "He Gone!"
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Unread 03-08-2012, 03:47 PM   #8
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Default Re: Tie goes to the runner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by darronwlsn View Post
SDIX - Thank you for the back round on OBR and how they fixed the discrepancy and hopefully FED will make the correction soon. I also googled H.U.P.

I just found this in Fed and this will close the book on my question:

There is a note at the very end of Rule 8-1 that states "NOTE - Unless awarded first base as above, a better-runner is entitled to first base only if he reaches it BEFORE being tagged out or thrown out."

This wording is in complete contradiction to 8-4-1-F but I'll take it.

Bottom line - if the Batter-Runner or Base Runner doesn't beat it - "He Gone!"
Please read the following 3 instructions:
  1. There are no ties in base running.
  2. If there is a tie, the tie goes to the umpire.
  3. If the tie goes to the umpire, then the runner didn't prove to the umpire that he attained the base before the defense got him.
Add to this:
Never, never never listen to coaches when they try to tell you your job!
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Unread 03-08-2012, 07:05 PM   #9
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Default Re: Tie goes to the runner?

Any good propoganda guru will tell you that if a lie is told often enough people will believe it's the truth.

The "tie is a lie" thought has been propogated often enough.

It's been pounded in so well that, faced with irrefutable proof, the denial instinct starts devising a reason for it to be true even when it's not.

So you might want to step back and examine your thought process - not just on this subject but on other pearls of wisdom out there in the wild.
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Unread 03-08-2012, 09:15 PM   #10
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Default Re: Tie goes to the runner?

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Originally Posted by Rich_Ives View Post
Any good propoganda guru will tell you that if a lie is told often enough people will believe it's the truth.

The "tie is a lie" thought has been propogated often enough.

It's been pounded in so well that, faced with irrefutable proof, the denial instinct starts devising a reason for it to be true even when it's not.

So you might want to step back and examine your thought process - not just on this subject but on other pearls of wisdom out there in the wild.
I like that.... "a tie is a lie".
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Unread 03-08-2012, 10:36 PM   #11
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Default Re: Tie goes to the runner?

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Originally Posted by sdix00 View Post
4. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principal says ties are impossible.
Dude, major points for incorporating the HUP into a discussion about umpiring.

Well played, Mauer.
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Unread 03-09-2012, 02:00 AM   #12
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Default Re: Tie goes to the runner?

I believe the hands are apart of the bat too...
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Unread 03-09-2012, 02:49 AM   #13
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Default Re: Tie goes to the runner?

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I believe the hands are apart of the bat too...
Yes we all do not really but most fans and coaches think so just like hey "Mr Umpire" the tie goes to the runner yea right. Its either the runner has beaten the throw or the ball has been dropped or they have made or failed to make the tag and is safe or tagged out.


So I agree the tie goes to the umpire "You're out and your ugly too"

Good posted question.
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