Right or Wrong Calls, Part 2

[adieste]

Hey everybody, thanks for all the advice and positive comments (but not the controversy) generated from my first post. Here comes set # 2 of questions:

Little League Majors (11-12 yrs. old):

Men on first and second, one out, grounder to F5 ...

BR goes to first. R1 goes to second. R2 starts to third, freezes (like a deer in the headlights) and head back to second base. We now have two men standing on second base. Third baseman, ball in hands, stands there looking equally as confused, then walks over and steps on third base.

Umpire calls force out at third. Discussion begins in the stands. There were two men standing on second base before force out at third. Is the lead runner properly out due to force, is the trailing runner out for occupying second base with R2, or is this a double play to end the inning?

I know, I know ... typical stuff for Little League ... or is it!?!

Second sitch:

Batter swings at a ridiculously inside pitch which hits him in the hand, ball rolls into the infield. Catcher fields ball and throws to first. Umpire rules that the batter was hit before the swing, and awards first base. Natives (fans) become a bit restless, and come running to me.

Third scenario:

After 90 minutes, and with plenty of sunlight left, it's a 1-1 tie after six innings. Both coaches want to play on, umpire calls game. Nobody (including me) has a rulebook handy.

Natives (fans) become restless, and come to me. As always I say ...

"I'm not the umpire, it's his call, and that's final."

I think I know the answers, but don't want to a) contradict my friend the umpire, and b) give bad information. Good enough for then, but I come home, and after the three-day weekend of festivities, I can't find MY rulebook.

It's not my game, but my kids (who are gaining valuable experience) are cussing and discussing their interpretations. Recall that I haven't done this in 25 years, and though I know the game very well, I don't pretend to be an expert. All I want to do is continue to enjoy learning more about the game.

Thanks again!

[Rich_Ives]

Originally Posted by adieste

Hey everybody, thanks for all the advice and positive comments (but not the controversy) generated from my first post. Here comes set # 2 of questions:

Little League Majors (11-12 yrs. old):

Men on first and second, one out, grounder to F5 ...

BR goes to first. R1 goes to second. R2 starts to third, freezes (like a deer in the headlights) and head back to second base. We now have two men standing on second base. Third baseman, ball in hands, stands there looking equally as confused, then walks over and steps on third base.

Umpire calls force out at third. Discussion begins in the stands. There were two men standing on second base before force out at third. Is the lead runner properly out due to force, is the trailing runner out for occupying second base with R2, or is this a double play to end the inning?

I know, I know ... typical stuff for Little League ... or is it!?!

Second sitch:

Batter swings at a ridiculously inside pitch which hits him in the hand, ball rolls into the infield. Catcher fields ball and throws to first. Umpire rules that the batter was hit before the swing, and awards first base. Natives (fans) become a bit restless, and come running to me.

Third scenario:

After 90 minutes, and with plenty of sunlight left, it's a 1-1 tie after six innings. Both coaches want to play on, umpire calls game. Nobody (including me) has a rulebook handy.

Natives (fans) become restless, and come to me. As always I say ...

"I'm not the umpire, it's his call, and that's final."

I think I know the answers, but don't want to a) contradict my friend the umpire, and b) give bad information. Good enough for then, but I come home, and after the three-day weekend of festivities, I can't find MY rulebook.

It's not my game, but my kids (who are gaining valuable experience) are cussing and discussing their interpretations. Recall that I haven't done this in 25 years, and though I know the game very well, I don't pretend to be an expert. All I want to do is continue to enjoy learning more about the game.

Thanks again!

Sitch 1: Yes the runner is out at third on a force. As ti two runners on 2B: No one is ever out when two runners are touching the same base until they are properly tagged. Then the lead runner is out if it's a force situation and he's tagged, otherwise the trail runner is out if he's tagged. But you gotta tag someone - tag both and let the umpire sort it out. Protest if he gets it wrong.

Second: ANY TIME a batter is hit by a pitch it is a dead ball. ALWAYS. NO EXCEPTIONS. After that as he was attempting to hit the ball it's a strike and he's either out if it was strike three or still at bat. There are also other situations the govern whether he goes to 1B, is out, or remains at bat. Protest if he gets it wrong.


Third: Does your league have a 1.5 hour time limit on the game? They're not supposed to, but if they do it's suspended, not over - continue on another date. If not then it's umpire's judgment as to whether there is enough light to continue - votes by managers and fans matter not a whit. But it is still suspended and you continue at a later date. Not protestable.

[mtlion55]

I am a rookie umpire but I would say this
Sit#1 Force out at third as runner was forced, two men on same base only applies when not a force issue
Sit#2 For a HBP to apply the pitch 1)has to be a ball 2)the batter has to try to get out of the way and 3) the BR must be hit by the pitch. Since he did not try to get out of the way and also swung at it I would have to say it's a strike
Sit#3 I cannot comment as I'm not familiar with time rules the youth ball you umpire

[Rich_Ives]

Originally Posted by mtlion55

I am a rookie umpire but I would say this
Sit#1 Force out at third as runner was forced, two men on same base only applies when not a force issue
Sit#2 For a HBP to apply the pitch 1)has to be a ball 2)the batter has to try to get out of the way and 3) the BR must be hit by the pitch. Since he did not try to get out of the way and also swung at it I would have to say it's a strike
Sit#3 I cannot comment as I'm not familiar with time rules the youth ball you umpire

You have more studying to do. Being here shows you are trying so keep it up.

[mtlion55]

What situation did I have wrong (other than the third one that I didn't know) just for my own knowledge? Thanks for the positive feedback!

[bobjenkins]

Originally Posted by mtlion55

What situation did I have wrong (other than the third one that I didn't know) just for my own knowledge? Thanks for the positive feedback!

1 and 2. Other than that you got them right.

(And, you are on the right track on both of them, with probably the correct final ruling. Just some errors in the details of how you got there.)

[celebur]

Originally Posted by mtlion55

Sit#1 Force out at third as runner was forced, two men on same base only applies when not a force issue

There is no rule about two men on the same base (i.e. nobody's out yet regardless of whether there is a force). Whenever this happens, let the play continue and hope someone figures out what to do. In the OP Sit #1, F5 figured out to touch his base to get the force out.

Sit#2 For a HBP to apply the pitch 1)has to be a ball 2)the batter has to try to get out of the way and 3) the BR must be hit by the pitch. Since he did not try to get out of the way and also swung at it I would have to say it's a strike

Whenever a batter is hit by a pitch, he is hit by a pitch (HBP). Even if the pitch was in the strike zone. It's always a dead ball, but the result depends upon the circumstances. In the OP Sit #2, it's a swinging strike, dead ball, do not award the batter 1B.

[typikon]

Originally Posted by celebur

There is no rule about two men on the same base (i.e. nobody's out yet regardless of whether there is a force). Whenever this happens, let the play continue and hope someone figures out what to do. In the OP Sit #1, F5 figured out to touch his base to get the force out.

Whenever a batter is hit by a pitch, he is hit by a pitch (HBP). Even if the pitch was in the strike zone. It's always a dead ball, but the result depends upon the circumstances. In the OP Sit #2, it's a swinging strike, dead ball, do not award the batter 1B.

Related questions: in my short experience with umpiring, I've had a lot of judgment calls with hands being hit. It seems physically possible for the ball to hit both the bat AND the hands, i.e. contacting the bat where the kid's grip begins. In that case, I've been awarding first base, assuming that the kid wasn't swinging, ball wasn't in the strike zone, etc. Is that correct?

Another situation I've had several times, which results in serious game management issues: ball does not appear to hit kid, but he's doubled over in pain, in tears, obviously not faking it, from his angle the PU didn't see (or hear) the contact, and is preparing to declare the ball dead, but hesitates for some reason. Inevitably, some bozo from the Defense (either coach or spectator), has to yell, "it must not have hit him!", i.e. taking advantage of a lack of an immediate call from the PU, they in essence argue that the kid is faking it and should not get first base. This kind of shoddy sportsmanship, particularly in youth baseball always generates counter-yelling from the Offense's spectators.

[grayhawk]

Originally Posted by typikon

Related questions: in my short experience with umpiring, I've had a lot of judgment calls with hands being hit. It seems physically possible for the ball to hit both the bat AND the hands, i.e. contacting the bat where the kid's grip begins. In that case, I've been awarding first base, assuming that the kid wasn't swinging, ball wasn't in the strike zone, etc. Is that correct?

Another situation I've had several times, which results in serious game management issues: ball does not appear to hit kid, but he's doubled over in pain, in tears, obviously not faking it, from his angle the PU didn't see (or hear) the contact, and is preparing to declare the ball dead, but hesitates for some reason. Inevitably, some bozo from the Defense (either coach or spectator), has to yell, "it must not have hit him!", i.e. taking advantage of a lack of an immediate call from the PU, they in essence argue that the kid is faking it and should not get first base. This kind of shoddy sportsmanship, particularly in youth baseball always generates counter-yelling from the Offense's spectators.

In both cases, you have to call what you see. That said, there are times that I may use the batter's reaction to help me make the call, but only when I am pretty sure he got hit in the first place. If I neither saw, nor heard anything that indicated the ball hitting the batter, then it doesn't much matter whether he is doubled over in pain or not.

[mtlion55]

Originally Posted by celebur

Whenever a batter is hit by a pitch, he is hit by a pitch (HBP). Even if the pitch was in the strike zone. It's always a dead ball, but the result depends upon the circumstances. In the OP Sit #2, it's a swinging strike, dead ball, do not award the batter 1B.

Good call on that, I was just thinking about HBP and getting 1B