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Unread 02-14-2018, 07:13 PM   #14
typikon
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Default Re: Conundrum

One reason I presented this play was to ask if perhaps there are scenarios where immediate live ball pulled foot appeals might be better? That's the only think I can think of that would prevent confusion at 2nd base.
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Unread 02-16-2018, 07:40 PM   #15
msmith
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Default Re: Conundrum

Typ--I know our local association and most current thinking wants the BU to make a safe/out call at 1st, and I agree with that policy. I've seen too many BU's in too many situations go to PU too often. The basic standard mechanic has got to be for BU to fight for that angle and distance and always get that call. Perhaps, however, going to PU could be considered a rare "Advanced" mechanic, because sometimes it's "totally" appropriate and even best and necessary, and I think an R-1/R-2 situation like you describe with a possible tag/rundown situation on a grounder to F-6 and a late throw is one of them--and this cluster (which is rare) is the reason. It's kind of like the philosophy of immediately going to partner on a check swing with 2 strikes and a BR entitled to advance on a dropped 3rd.

There's not much BU could have done here but remain pretty close to his starting C position. He's got a force at 3 bases (I know, technically he only has a force at 2nd and 3rd), and he's got an R-2 between F-6 (who has the ball) and 2nd. BU has got to wait for F-6 to commit, and chances of being straightlined at 1st are high. On that play, if he's not sure AND he sees PU on the line with eyes on the bag, I think it's perfectly sound (and even wise) for BU to immediately point and say, "Did he hold the bag?"

I like that positive wording, that's the wording I got from Jim Evans at the Desert Classic, and Jim was very adamant that in all the years he umpired professional games, he had a hard time remembering anytime he had to use that mechanic (probably because it's a 2-man mechanic ) But the point is it's a rare occurrence, but it's usually in a play like that, with multiple runners, and we all need to know if BR is safe or out right now. I know I've used it in a similar situation where the 1st play was a close one at 3rd, and then a long throw to 1st and I've got zipkiss for an angle on the stretch, and I look and see my partner 8 feet up the line looking up the line.

I don't like, "Did he pull his foot?" "Did he hold the bag?" is a positive question and asks whether F-3 did something good, not whether he did something bad. And besides, in the rare situations I've seen it and the answer is "Yes," everyone cheers after a "Then he's out!"
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Unread 02-16-2018, 10:01 PM   #16
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Default Re: Conundrum

I might take some additional flaming here, but if I'm BU in Typ's situation, and I've got an out but for the fact that I've also got a super stretch by F-3 and a cruddy angle (even if that's my fault) and it looks like he might have disengaged the bag, and R-1 and R-2 both hovering at 2nd, if I see partner on the line, and I ask, "Did he hold the bag?" And if my PU partner shrugs because he really didn't see it, then I'll yell, "He's out!"

Then after all the dust settles and OHC comes out because his assistant was right there and swears on his mother's grave that F-3 pulled his foot, I've already got the situation in hand and don't need to go to my partner. After he says his piece and finally gets around to asking me a question like what I saw, "John, I have the catch beating the batter, and I did not see a pulled foot, from what I saw he held the bag and we have a good out . . . and you know me well enough to know that I won't call what I don't see." "Well, can you go to your partner for help?" "No, because I already did." "Well, then you owe me one, Mike! . . . You've got to do a better job out there, you got that one wrong!" I turn and jog back to C, and John and I may or may not be professionally glaring at each other a bit
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Unread 06-12-2018, 01:59 PM   #17
bchamber
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Default Re: Conundrum

1st BU should have asked PU before he made the call if he pulled his foot 2nd he tagged the wrong runner if both were on base. R1 is entitled to base
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Unread 06-12-2018, 02:18 PM   #18
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Default Re: Conundrum

Quote:
Originally Posted by bchamber View Post
1st BU should have asked PU before he made the call if he pulled his foot 2nd he tagged the wrong runner if both were on base. R1 is entitled to base
That mechanic has changed. It is now up to the base umpire to make the best call he can. If he gets heat on the call, he then MAY go to his partner. There are two reasons for changing the mechanic. 1) It is the responsibility of the umpire to be accountable for calls in his jurisdiction. 2) What happens if you go to your partner and he didn't see it? You are now telling everyone neither one of you saw the play. Not a good place to be!
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