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Unread 06-21-2018, 01:19 AM   #1
jmurray
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Default LL pitch count threshold exception

I've been asked by tournament coaches how to "declare" the threshold exception for it to apply. I told them our pitch counters track pitches and batters and will apply the exception and they don't have to worry. But in previous years they have run into tournament venues where they weren't given the exception because they didn't "declare" it. It probably is a good idea to confirm that you are working the exception with the current batter and who knows how well versed some tournament personnel are. But if you have competent pitch counters do you require the coach to "declare" to get the exception?
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Unread 06-21-2018, 04:49 AM   #2
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Default Re: LL pitch count threshold exception

So let's say you have a 12yo pitcher and he retires the first batter in the Nth inning with 84 pitches. The new batter comes in and takes the 85th pitch. Are you saying that some venues require the pitcher to be pulled, unless there is some sort of declaration? I have never heard of that. It sounds like someone doesn't understand the rules.

Or let's say you have a game on Thursday, and the manager wants to make sure his starting pitcher can pitch on saturday. That's a 35 pitch limit. Let's say he finishes a batter at 34 pitches. He then pitches four more times to the next batter, for a total of 38 pitches. It seems to me that the scorekeeper or pitchcounter would need to notate the scorebook or pitch count log to the effect that the 35th through 38th pitch was to one batter, enabling him to pitch on Saturday (one day of rest). Moreover, the manager, to prevent a dispute, would insist that the pitch count record from the Thursday game be properly noted. Without such a note, if the other team protested his starting the game on Saturday, there would be no way of knowing whether he was eligible to pitch or not.


Either way, I'm not seeing any "declarations", but certainly a need for the scorekeeper to make a note. Here is a pitch count record that indicates new batters and the like:

http://www.pacificlittleleague.com/d...20(Game).1.pdf
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Unread 06-21-2018, 01:08 PM   #3
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Default Re: LL pitch count threshold exception

Wow, the timing of this post is great. I used to coach little league many years ago and we always just had the scorekeeper/pitch counter notate the "ACTUAL" number of pitches but documented that at the start of that batter, the pitcher was below the threshold. Now that i'm umpiring I just did a LL game at the end of the season where a manager told me, "Hey blue, this is the last batter for this pitcher..." I'm like ok, why you telling me? Ha ha!

So in the middle of the inning, I asked the manager why he was telling me that and he said that he thought he was "required" to declare that this was the last batter. I questioned him and said, so if you decided after this last batter, you know what, I'm going to let him pitch the rest of the game (obviously as long as he wasn't past his max for the day), that you could no longer change your mind and leave him in because you "declared" him to be your last batter? He said that's how he understood the rules. I simply told the manager, you may want to check that because I've never heard of that rule requiring any manager to "declare" when a pitcher was pitching to his last batter.

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Unread 06-21-2018, 02:31 PM   #4
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Default Re: LL pitch count threshold exception

I believe this is a good speed up type rule to avoid having to replace pitchers mid-batter and mid-count. It’s based on pitches thrown up until the current/last batter, and not on whether the manager announces a planned pitching substitution several pitches before it happens to the umpire, the scorekeeper, or the world. What the manager says or doesn’t say to the UIC does not determine the number of days rest that a pitcher will require. The pitch count threshold reached with the last batter is what determines the days of rest required to protect the pitcher. Umpires have nothing to do with calculating pitch counts and days of rest.

It’s not a “threshold exception” in the Rulebook like a manager deciding to take the results of the play or take the balk penalty, it’s simply the regulation, and it’s not even a rule of play. It’s in the regulations as I recall, not the Rules of Play. Not unusual for any of us to apply a rule at a youth tournament and then have some coach screaming about what happened to him at another tournament, sometimes in a different state.

“Sorry Coach, that wasn’t my game, not my problem.”
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Unread 06-21-2018, 02:42 PM   #5
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Default Re: LL pitch count threshold exception

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Originally Posted by msmith View Post
I believe this is a good speed up type rule to avoid having to replace pitchers mid-batter and mid-count. Itís based on pitches thrown up until the current/last batter, and not on whether the manager announces a planned pitching substitution several pitches before it happens to the umpire, the scorekeeper, or the world. What the manager says or doesnít say to the UIC does not determine the number of days rest that a pitcher will require. The pitch count threshold reached with the last batter is what determines the days of rest required to protect the pitcher. Umpires have nothing to do with calculating pitch counts and days of rest.

Itís not a ďthreshold exceptionĒ in the Rulebook like a manager deciding to take the results of the play or take the balk penalty, itís simply the regulation, and itís not even a rule of play. Itís in the regulations as I recall, not the Rules of Play. Not unusual for any of us to apply a rule at a youth tournament and then have some coach screaming about what happened to him at another tournament, sometimes in a different state.

ďSorry Coach, that wasnít my game, not my problem.Ē
OFF TOPIC: The bolded is not in the rule book and is incorrect.
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Unread 06-21-2018, 03:18 PM   #6
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Default Re: LL pitch count threshold exception

If a pitcher is below a threshold and then exceeds that number on the next batter, we record the total number of pithes and then "FB" (for "finished a batter"). This way we have recorded the correct threshold number for purposes of rest.

We are in the middle of Districts now, and this technique has been used for years very successfully.
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Unread 06-21-2018, 08:34 PM   #7
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Default Re: LL pitch count threshold exception

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmurray View Post
OFF TOPIC: The bolded is not in the rule book and is incorrect.
Well, yes and no. In LL, the various balks in 8.05 are penalized as "illegal pitches" and do in fact result in a choice by the offense to take the illegal pitch penalty or the results of the play.

But otherwise you're right. MSmith is going to need to ask his forgiveness for this inadvertent spreading of "fake rules."
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Unread 06-21-2018, 08:35 PM   #8
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Default Re: LL pitch count threshold exception

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Originally Posted by vegas_ump View Post
If a pitcher is below a threshold and then exceeds that number on the next batter, we record the total number of pithes and then "FB" (for "finished a batter"). This way we have recorded the correct threshold number for purposes of rest.

We are in the middle of Districts now, and this technique has been used for years very successfully.
Where is this recorded? Lineup cards? Pitch count sheet?
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Unread 06-22-2018, 01:41 AM   #9
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Default Re: LL pitch count threshold exception

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Originally Posted by typikon View Post
Where is this recorded? Lineup cards? Pitch count sheet?
Affidavit
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Unread 06-22-2018, 04:13 AM   #10
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Default Re: LL pitch count threshold exception

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Originally Posted by Rich_Ives View Post
Affidavit
If you have competent tournament personnel they will fill out the affidavit pitch count page properly. If you donít your pitcher who started the batter with 18 and finished with 21 will need 1 days rest because the coach didnít declare. Might just be a rare occurrence in areas with unschooled tournament personnel.
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Unread 06-22-2018, 03:13 PM   #11
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Default Re: LL pitch count threshold exception

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Originally Posted by jmurray View Post
if you have competent tournament personnel they will fill out the affidavit pitch count page properly. If you don’t your pitcher who started the batter with 18 and finished with 21 will need 1 days rest because the coach didn’t declare. Might just be a rare occurrence in areas with unschooled tournament personnel.
Declare is not required. The pitch counter knows damn well that the threshold rule is in effect and should record it properly. The manager should not take his affidavit until it is correct.

And please consider this to be in uppercase shouting. The editor seemingly undid the uppercase.
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Unread 06-23-2018, 03:01 PM   #12
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Default Re: LL pitch count threshold exception

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Originally Posted by Rich_Ives View Post
Declare is not required. The pitch counter knows damn well that the threshold rule is in effect and should record it properly. The manager should not take his affidavit until it is correct.

And please consider this to be in uppercase shouting. The editor seemingly undid the uppercase.
We all know it's not REQUIRED. But just last night as PU in a Major district tournament I had a manager call time to announce "last batter" to save a pitcher for the next day. I gave him a thumbs up and, as we have competent pitch counters, did not alert the scorekeeper table. Between innings I advised him that the declaration was not necessary but since he has experienced the requirement before it probably was a good idea if he advances. This coach has advanced past district in previous years and run into tournaments with untrained pitch count personnel. Usually HS baseball players given a basic pitch count sheet and a pencil.
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