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Unread 02-12-2018, 10:15 PM   #1
typikon
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Default Conundrum

OBR

R1, R2, no outs.

Batter hits grounder to shortstop. R2 begins to advance, but when SS throws to first base, he inexplicably retreats to second base (forgot there was a runner on 1st).

The throw is wide, F3 really has to stretch for it, but the BU calls the out and F3 immediately throws to second base, where there are two runners. The second baseman tags the trailing runner (formerly R1) and the base umpire calls him out. As he is running off the diamond, the manager for the offense ask for time and then claims that F3 pulled his foot. BU checks: yes PU has a pulled foot. Batter is safe.

Anything to fix at 2nd base?
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Unread 02-13-2018, 05:27 AM   #2
udbrky
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Default Re: Conundrum

Why is R1 called out? If he's on 2B, the play at 1B removed the force on him.

The appeal puts the runner back on 2B imo.
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Unread 02-13-2018, 06:06 AM   #3
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Default Re: Conundrum

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Originally Posted by udbrky View Post
Why is R1 called out?
R1 and R2 were both on the base. R1 was out as he was the trail runner.
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Unread 02-13-2018, 06:08 AM   #4
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Default Re: Conundrum

Quote:
Originally Posted by typikon View Post
OBR

R1, R2, no outs.

Batter hits grounder to shortstop. R2 begins to advance, but when SS throws to first base, he inexplicably retreats to second base (forgot there was a runner on 1st).

The throw is wide, F3 really has to stretch for it, but the BU calls the out and F3 immediately throws to second base, where there are two runners. The second baseman tags the trailing runner (formerly R1) and the base umpire calls him out. As he is running off the diamond, the manager for the offense ask for time and then claims that F3 pulled his foot. BU checks: yes PU has a pulled foot. Batter is safe.

Anything to fix at 2nd base?
Seems reasonable to change the out to R2. Put R1 on 2B.
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Unread 02-13-2018, 02:37 PM   #5
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Default Re: Conundrum

Quote:
Originally Posted by typikon View Post
As he is running off the diamond, the manager for the offense ask for time
Why was the manager running off the field?

I agree with Rich -- determine what would have happened and enforce that -- R2 out.
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Unread 02-13-2018, 05:58 PM   #6
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Default Re: Conundrum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_Ives View Post
R1 and R2 were both on the base. R1 was out as he was the trail runner.
If the call at first base was flipped, R1 is entitled to second base since he was forced there and R2 should be out, if tagged.

This is another play that deserves a common sense ruling. The best thing to do is call out R2, since he was now forced because the call was changed to safe. R1, is entitled to the base on a force play. The lead runner. R2 is the runner forced off the base. Under normal circumstances, the lead runner is entitled to the base, unless there is a force play involved, in which case the trail runner is entitled to the base.

In this situation, it is probably best to apply the rule based on the changed call at first base.
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Unread 02-13-2018, 07:12 PM   #7
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Default Re: Conundrum

Tough situation. R-2 did nothing wrong, was never tagged, and the defense did nothing to get him out. The ball then became dead. BR is safe at 1st. R-1 is now safe at second. Both the call at 1st and the call at 2nd are reversed. Bad afternoon for BU.

What do you do with R-2 who was never called out, and who was never tagged? The ball is now dead. Technically (and by Rule I believe), R-2 has the right to complete his baserunning obligations during the dead ball and trot over to 3rd, because R-1 is now going to be told to return to 2nd, because the out on him must be reversed.

This is a potential Rule 10 situation, but EXTREME, because to call R-2 out, you'd have to "pretend" that the defense would have tagged R-2 at the bag on the live ball, if BU hadn't called R-1 out on the live ball, or that he would have gotten into a pickle and been tagged out before reaching 3rd if R-1 had been called safe at 2nd. That's making stuff up.

There's going to be a storm, and the umpires definitely put both teams at a disadvantage by making two calls on the play, both of which are reversed after the ball becomes dead. "We screwed up, nobody was properly called out or put out on the play, but we're nevertheless going to call the one runner out who was never called out, who was never put out, and by Rule of Play is not out, and who now by Rule has the right to complete his base running obligations a jog over to 3rd--we're just not going to let him do that."

I realize the alternative of bases loaded would lead to a possibly even greater storm. Two umpire erroneous calls lead the defense to not get ANYONE out at 2nd base, so the umpires are going to call somebody out on the play. While that might be the best result and one that the offense could accept easier than the defense would accept bases loaded, it's still a colossal mess, and OHC could pretty much say whatever he wanted to me and not get tossed.
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Unread 02-13-2018, 07:57 PM   #8
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Default Re: Conundrum

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Originally Posted by msmith View Post
Technically (and by Rule I believe), R-2 has the right to complete his baserunning obligations during the dead ball
That's only true when there's an award.
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Unread 02-13-2018, 08:16 PM   #9
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Default Re: Conundrum

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigblue2u View Post
If the call at first base was flipped, R1 is entitled to second base since he was forced there and R2 should be out, if tagged.
In the OP the out was called BEFORE the reversal at 1B. It was correct at that moment.
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Unread 02-13-2018, 08:29 PM   #10
typikon
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Default Re: Conundrum

Flipping the call at second base would definitely be easier if the second baseman had done the usual thing, which is to tag both players because he's not sure which one is out.
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Unread 02-13-2018, 10:59 PM   #11
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Default Re: Conundrum

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Originally Posted by typikon View Post
Flipping the call at second base would definitely be easier if the second baseman had done the usual thing, which is to tag both players because he's not sure which one is out.
But he knew enough which one to tag. He didn't need to tag both. Give him credit.
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Unread 02-13-2018, 11:51 PM   #12
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Default Re: Conundrum

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Originally Posted by Rich_Ives View Post
R1 and R2 were both on the base. R1 was out as he was the trail runner.
I did it all backwards.
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Unread 02-14-2018, 06:01 AM   #13
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Default Re: Conundrum

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith View Post
I realize the alternative of bases loaded would lead to a possibly even greater storm. Two umpire erroneous calls lead the defense to not get ANYONE out at 2nd base, so the umpires are going to call somebody out on the play. While that might be the best result and one that the offense could accept easier than the defense would accept bases loaded, it's still a colossal mess, and OHC could pretty much say whatever he wanted to me and not get tossed.
Just be careful to not leave yourself open to a protest. Maintaining the out call of R1 at second, could lead to a protest because, under the circumstances, it is a force play and by rule R2 is the one who should have been called out.

By the same token, we are not going to advance anyone and we are not going to leave two runners at second base. It is an interesting play.
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