Go Back   Forums > Between the Lines > Rules

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 12-14-2008, 02:22 PM   #1
BigUmp56
Moderator
Moderator
All-Star
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South Bend In.
Posts: 745
Rep Power: 10
BigUmp56 has much to be proud ofBigUmp56 has much to be proud ofBigUmp56 has much to be proud ofBigUmp56 has much to be proud ofBigUmp56 has much to be proud ofBigUmp56 has much to be proud ofBigUmp56 has much to be proud of
Default This is always good for the newer umpires

Lets see how some of our new to umpiring members would call this.


RHP straddles the rubber, with R3. F1 now leans toward the plate looking in to the catcher with his glove on his knee and the ball at his side. R3 takes a nice lead, and F1 stands straight up and picks him off.


Tim.
BigUmp56 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-14-2008, 03:02 PM   #2
ohio-ump74
Newbie
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Grapevine, TX
Posts: 8
Rep Power: 0
ohio-ump74 is just getting started
Question Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

Are his hands coming together as he stands up and or does he stop...? Need more information...
__________________
"Pause / Read / React... it's nothing till you call it"

Last edited by ohio-ump74; 12-14-2008 at 03:14 PM.
ohio-ump74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-14-2008, 04:56 PM   #3
Richard_Siegel
Moderator
Moderator
All-Star Crew Chief
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,917
Rep Power: 10
Richard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio-ump74 View Post
Are his hands coming together as he stands up and or does he stop...? Need more information...
Don't read anymore into the question.

RHP straddles the rubber, with R3. F1 now leans toward the plate looking in to the catcher with his glove on his knee and the ball at his side. R3 takes a nice lead, and F1 stands straight up and picks him off.

You can assume that F1 did nothing more than keep his glove hand at his side coming off the knee to his theigh, and he makes no stop - just throws. His feet stay where they were.
Richard_Siegel is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-14-2008, 05:01 PM   #4
newblue4co
Regular
No Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Metro Denver, Colorado
Posts: 136
Rep Power: 147
newblue4co has much to be proud ofnewblue4co has much to be proud ofnewblue4co has much to be proud ofnewblue4co has much to be proud ofnewblue4co has much to be proud ofnewblue4co has much to be proud ofnewblue4co has much to be proud ofnewblue4co has much to be proud of
Default Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

Well I will give it a shot.

I have an out. The pitcher was not engaging the rubber.
newblue4co is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-14-2008, 05:12 PM   #5
Richard_Siegel
Moderator
Moderator
All-Star Crew Chief
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,917
Rep Power: 10
Richard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

Quote:
Originally Posted by newblue4co View Post
Well I will give it a shot.

I have an out. The pitcher was not engaging the rubber.
The objective was to see if you think this is a balk or not.
Richard_Siegel is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-14-2008, 09:10 PM   #6
Ozzy
Veteran Crew Chief
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,907
Rep Power: 306
Ozzy has a reputation beyond reputeOzzy has a reputation beyond reputeOzzy has a reputation beyond reputeOzzy has a reputation beyond reputeOzzy has a reputation beyond reputeOzzy has a reputation beyond reputeOzzy has a reputation beyond reputeOzzy has a reputation beyond reputeOzzy has a reputation beyond reputeOzzy has a reputation beyond reputeOzzy has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

Quote:
Originally Posted by newblue4co View Post
Well I will give it a shot.

I have an out. The pitcher was not engaging the rubber.
Why would you have an out?
__________________
When in doubt, bang 'em out!

Ozzy
Ozzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-14-2008, 11:58 PM   #7
mstaylor
Veteran
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Salisbury,MD
Age: 56
Posts: 367
Rep Power: 44
mstaylor is a jewel in the roughmstaylor is a jewel in the roughmstaylor is a jewel in the rough
Default Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

He has an out because there was no balk so the pick-off is good. Rich, Please don't start the on the rubber/off the rubber argument here. It's 300+ posts on another board.
__________________
Michael S. Taylor
umpire-empire.com
mstaylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-14-2008, 05:19 PM   #8
Rich_Ives
All-Star Crew Chief
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Owego NY LL
Posts: 2,933
Rep Power: 279
Rich_Ives has a reputation beyond reputeRich_Ives has a reputation beyond reputeRich_Ives has a reputation beyond reputeRich_Ives has a reputation beyond reputeRich_Ives has a reputation beyond reputeRich_Ives has a reputation beyond reputeRich_Ives has a reputation beyond reputeRich_Ives has a reputation beyond reputeRich_Ives has a reputation beyond reputeRich_Ives has a reputation beyond reputeRich_Ives has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigUmp56 View Post
Lets see how some of our new to umpiring members would call this.


RHP straddles the rubber, with R3. F1 now leans toward the plate looking in to the catcher with his glove on his knee and the ball at his side. R3 takes a nice lead, and F1 stands straight up and picks him off.


Tim.
As he leans in: "Time! Hey pitch, you have to be engaged when taking your signs."
__________________
Different does not equate to wrong.
Rich_Ives is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-14-2008, 06:16 PM   #9
newblue
Newbie
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 6
Rep Power: 0
newblue is just getting started
Default Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

I'm a newer umpire and I'll give it a shot. It' not a balk but I agree with Rich and call "time". If I'm wrong, I'd rather be wrong now and get corrected than be wrong on the field.
newblue is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-14-2008, 08:42 PM   #10
BigUmp56
Moderator
Moderator
All-Star
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South Bend In.
Posts: 745
Rep Power: 10
BigUmp56 has much to be proud ofBigUmp56 has much to be proud ofBigUmp56 has much to be proud ofBigUmp56 has much to be proud ofBigUmp56 has much to be proud ofBigUmp56 has much to be proud ofBigUmp56 has much to be proud of
Default Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_Ives View Post
As he leans in: "Time! Hey pitch, you have to be engaged when taking your signs."
That's great, Rich. I'm glad you finally decided to start umpiring some games. Any ideas on what you'll buy for gear this Winter?


Tim.
BigUmp56 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-25-2008, 06:12 AM   #11
mr umpire
All-Star
No Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 799
Rep Power: 31
mr umpire enjoys it when you click on his icon
Default Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

Simply looking at the catcher for signs is fine depending upon league rules. Although, he shouldn't b/c it lends too much for a quick pitch. Then, his next move better be to put his pivot foot on the rubber or stand up and turn his body away from the batter and head in the direction of second base or any other move illustrating he is NOT simulating his pitching motion at the same time, even for 1 step, I'll consider him not deceiving anyone. Everyone knows he is not in the act of pitching at that point.

But, if he stands straight up, even slightly moving his glove from his knee, he has just simulated pitching IMO. Nothing says he has to move his feet to come set. IMO, he is in the act of coming set when he decided to throw to third base. Therefore, I will call a balk. He had the intent to deceive the runner which is the first rule of a balk.
__________________
Question everything until you get an irrefutable or understandable answer...Don't settle for "That's Just the Way it is"

Last edited by mr umpire; 12-25-2008 at 02:03 PM.
mr umpire is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-25-2008, 06:34 PM   #12
Richard_Siegel
Moderator
Moderator
All-Star Crew Chief
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,917
Rep Power: 10
Richard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond reputeRichard_Siegel has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr umpire View Post
Simply looking at the catcher for signs is fine depending upon league rules. Although, he shouldn't b/c it lends too much for a quick pitch. Then, his next move better be to put his pivot foot on the rubber or stand up and turn his body away from the batter and head in the direction of second base or any other move illustrating he is NOT simulating his pitching motion at the same time, even for 1 step, I'll consider him not deceiving anyone. Everyone knows he is not in the act of pitching at that point.

But, if he stands straight up, even slightly moving his glove from his knee, he has just simulated pitching IMO. Nothing says he has to move his feet to come set. IMO, he is in the act of coming set when he decided to throw to third base. Therefore, I will call a balk. He had the intent to deceive the runner which is the first rule of a balk.
Quoted from above: "He had the intent to deceive the runner which is the first rule of a balk." That sentence is utterly and completely wrong. As long as an umpire thinks this way, he will forever make mistakes recognizing balks, much less try to explain them.

If a pitcher lifts is glove from his knee and is in the act of coming set and then interrupts this motion to step off and throw to a base, or stay in contact and step towards a base and throw it is not a balk because the pitcher has not yet reached the point where he is commited to pitch. In the set position the pitcher may not throw to a base or step-off once he has some to his "stop" in the set position and then made a motion that commits him to pitch.

You are confusing the the act of first coming to the "stop," i.e. bringing the hands together, as part of "simulated pitching." You are not understanding the rule correctly.
Richard_Siegel is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-25-2008, 09:46 PM   #13
mr umpire
All-Star
No Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 799
Rep Power: 31
mr umpire enjoys it when you click on his icon
Default Re: This is always good for the newer umpires

Let me rephrase. If there is any doubt of whether this is a balk or not, then the ump shall go by the pitcher's intent. Here, his intent by simulating coming set while off the rubber is to deceive the runner and is a balk. It is the first rule of thumb an umpire goes by if there is any doubt in his mind as to whether the pitcher's actions are a balk or not. My first statement still holds true just poorly stated.

And, as the Roder interpretation stated, when he is in the motion of coming set while not on the rubber, he is in the act of pitching while not on the rubber(straddling it) which is 8.05(g). I understand the rule and the comment.

If he interrupts his coming set motion to throw to third while on the rubber, then it is no balk as long as he does it legally. B/c, he has not simulated any pitching motion while off the rubber. That is the entire thing. It is not about being committed to pitch. It is about being in the "act of pitching". He simulates pitching while off the rubber. Taking his signs off the rubber does not simulate pitching. Coming set or in the act of coming set simulates the act of pitching. He can't pitch the ball to the plate until he comes set in the stretch position with runners on. Which is why coming set is considered in the act by Roder.

This only applies if you missed taking the signs off the rubber as in 8.01. First thing, though, is to catch that and prevent this whole mess. Tell him to take his signs on the rubber. After that, some umpires may have him ejected next time. I will only go with the ejection if he keeps doing and I finally get tired of telling him, which may vary how many times from game to game.
__________________
Question everything until you get an irrefutable or understandable answer...Don't settle for "That's Just the Way it is"

Last edited by mr umpire; 12-25-2008 at 10:14 PM.
mr umpire is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.