illegal bats

[Richard_Siegel]

Strickly FED rules:

The batter is observerd to be holding a non compliant bat (i.e. without a knob, or 38" long):

a. before he enters the batter's box,
b. while in the batter's box after a pitch,
c. after hitting a fair ball and reaching base,
d. after a pitch is thrown to the next batter and he is on base

What do we do with him and/or his bat?

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The batter is observerd to be holding an altered/damaged metal bat (i.e. without a safety grip, or having a crack):

a. before he enters the batter's box,
b. while in the batter's box after a pitch,
c. after hitting a fair ball and reaching base,
d. after a pitch is thrown to the next batter and he is on base

What do we do with him and/or his bat?

[yawetag]

Strickly FED rules:

The batter is observerd to be holding a non compliant bat (i.e. without a knob, or 38" long):

a. before he enters the batter's box,
b. while in the batter's box after a pitch,
c. after hitting a fair ball and reaching base,
d. after a pitch is thrown to the next batter and he is on base

What do we do with him and/or his bat?
Did we observe this problem during bat/helmet check? If yes, the bat's considered illegal (see below). If not, the bat's removed and everything stays as is (1.3.5B).

The batter is observerd to be holding an altered/damaged metal bat (i.e. without a safety grip, or having a crack):

a. before he enters the batter's box,
b. while in the batter's box after a pitch,
c. after hitting a fair ball and reaching base,
d. after a pitch is thrown to the next batter and he is on base

What do we do with him and/or his bat?
It's in 7-4-1a:
a) Not specifically mentioned, but I'd probably throw out the bat.
b) Batter's out.
c) Defense has an option: batter's out (runners return to TOP base [see 7.4.1D]) or result of play.
d) Nothing happens to batter.

In all the situations, the bat's removed from the game.

[jmurray]

Both a. and d. for either case: remove the bat.

Both b. and c. for either case except damaged bat: Batter is out unless defense wants the play. Remove the bat.

b. and c. for a damaged bat: If previously discovered on ump inspection: Batter is out, remove bat.
If not previously discovered, remove bat.

Most of the BAT 1.3. caseplays are changed for 2011.
The above is what I glean from them.

[yawetag]

Most of the BAT 1.3. caseplays are changed for 2011.
If that's the case, then my response may be wrong. I was using 2010 rules for my answers.

[bigbird69]

I would think that the cracked bat with ITEM C would be a tough call either way. I have seen a perfectly good bat at the start of an at-bat, be cracked after the at-bat (I was playing, batter/owner of bat was ticked because his $300 bat cracked on a minor base hit.)

If it cracked during an at- bat, it would be no different than if a wooden bat broke while attempting to/actually hitting the ball... play on remove bat.

The rest of them a pretty straight forward.

[yawetag]

I would think that the cracked bat with ITEM C would be a tough call either way. I have seen a perfectly good bat at the start of an at-bat, be cracked after the at-bat (I was playing, batter/owner of bat was ticked because his $300 bat cracked on a minor base hit.)
It appears the rule changes cover this. If the umpire sees the crack before the game and rules the bat illegal, the penalty after use is an out. However, if it's found after the inspection, it's thrown out without penalty.

This is the new wording of 1-3-5 (bolding mine to emphasize bigbird's concern):
ART. 5 . . . Bats that are altered from the manufacturer’s original design and production, or that do not meet the rule specifications, are illegal (See 7-4-1a). No foreign substance may be inserted into the bat. Bats that are broken, cracked or dented or that deface the ball, i.e., tear the ball, shall be removed without penalty.

[heyblue26]

Remove the bat if it was noticed during your bat check Then its nothing. But if he used the bat and got a hit remove the bat from the game and he is called out for using a illegal bat.

[yawetag]

Remove the bat if it was noticed during your bat check Then its nothing. But if he used the bat and got a hit remove the bat from the game and he is called out for using a illegal bat.

Unless they changed 7-4-1a for 2011, you can call him out for ENTERING the box with an illegal bat.

[heyblue26]

Unless they changed 7-4-1a for 2011, you can call him out for ENTERING the box with an illegal bat.

I have went back and reviewed the rule and you are correct 7-4-1a. It also mentions or is discovered having used an illegal bat. It is an Out. Defense team may take either the penalty or the result of the play.

[sethwagner]

I'd like to read your opinions (which will not be construed as bonafide legal information) regarding this scenario:

The XYZ summer tournament is being governed by FED rules. Games are timed and scheduled on 2 hour blocks. There is no time for umpires to check equipment prior to the game. B1 uses a composite bat, which subsequent inspection confirms does not comply with FED standards, and F1 is lined in the eye socket. At the plate meeting with both head coaches the UIC asked and received an affirmative response to the question, "Are all of your players and the player's equipment legal?"

Do you think this question could provide immunity of the umpires from potential liability?

[cbfoulds]

I'd like to read your opinions (which will not be construed as bonafide legal information) regarding this scenario:

The XYZ summer tournament is being governed by FED rules. Games are timed and scheduled on 2 hour blocks. There is no time for umpires to check equipment prior to the game. B1 uses a composite bat, which subsequent inspection confirms does not comply with FED standards, and F1 is lined in the eye socket. At the plate meeting with both head coaches the UIC asked and received an affirmative response to the question, "Are all of your players and the player's equipment legal?"

Do you think this question could provide immunity of the umpires from potential liability?
If asking the question was all that the umpires were hired [instructed] to do in regard to legality of equipment by the "XYZ" Tournament, probably yes [always recognizing the difference between not being liable and not being sued]. If "governed by FED Rules" means "including all FED expectations for umpires", maybe not. "There is no time ..." is both lame and bogus as an excuse: you mean to tell me that the teams walk into the dugouts and play starts IMMEDIATELY?!? No warm-up pitches, no infield practice, nothing? I doubt it.

[heyblue26]

Its always been my understanding that the Umpires show up at least 30 min before game time if not earlier to check the equipment etc, and make sure that it meets the standards as set in the regulations for FED.

I agree "No Time" umpires not doing the job and being professional about it. Just show up Ok coaches meeting at the plate Let play nothing else. Recomendation: Show up earlier to the ball park so you and your partner can have enough time to Check. IMO

[sethwagner]

HeyBlue -

You read my post and saw something in the wording of the scenario that you did not like and commented on that aspect; but you did not address the specific question posed. Why do that? This is a hypothetical situation anyway and it is very hard to arrive early to a hypothetical game.

[heyblue26]

HeyBlue -

You read my post and saw something in the wording of the scenario that you did not like and commented on that aspect; but you did not address the specific question posed. Why do that? This is a hypothetical situation anyway and it is very hard to arrive early to a hypothetical game.

If this was a hypothetical situation I did not see that mentioed in your post as such maybe I mess read it. Do I think that this would or could immunity of the umpires potential libility? First your right it is hard to not arrive early to a game that is not real. Second if the game was real I believe that the Umpires and the Coach' (s) could be both held liable as far as failure to not check the bats not meeting the regulations and removed from the game.

[bigbird69]

I can see where problems come in when doing a multiple game tournament. I worked one this fall, and the timeframes were made quite difficult.

First, if we were lucky, 15 minutes between games. When you are doing more than one game, you and your partner are spending that time while they are swapping teams out changing gear (BU -> PU or vice versa) and hydrating. The teams did much of their warmups while you were working game one, so once they take over the assigned dugout, they are almost ready to go.

Under this scenario, I can see missing the equipment check. We had no problem with the first game we worked, but the second game, we were not able to check the other team ourselves (another crew did go over their equipment for their earlier game, but we had not arrived yet when that happened so we have no idea what happened) because only one teams changed out while we were changing ourselves.

[celebur]

At the plate meeting with both head coaches the UIC asked and received an affirmative response to the question, "Are all of your players and the player's equipment legal?"

Do you think this question could provide immunity of the umpires from potential liability?

I, for one, would not trust that this provides any sort of immunity from liability. If there is an injury, you can bet that the plaintiff will try suing everyone they can think of to make sure it sticks on someone. Even if you got the above in writing, lawyers can still argue about what it means and whether it meets your obligations for ensuring safety of players. That can go anywhere, so no, I wouldn't trust it one bit.

[yawetag]

I, for one, would not trust that this provides any sort of immunity from liability. If there is an injury, you can bet that the plaintiff will try suing everyone they can think of to make sure it sticks on someone. Even if you got the above in writing, lawyers can still argue about what it means and whether it meets your obligations for ensuring safety of players. That can go anywhere, so no, I wouldn't trust it one bit.
The fact remains that someone can sue any one at any time. The question is the merit and liability behind the claim. In a situation like this, the umpire can show that he completed his required steps of having the coaches state their players were equipped properly.

The case would then come down to whether or not the umpire actually did ask.

[lustersilk]

Can someone please site some precidence on this? Has there ever been a sports official sued for something like this? I'm just curious. If so, can you please site the example.

[dnemeth4809]

Some states have adopted legislation that protects sports officials from lititgation in cases of injury during athletic competition as long as the official is a member of an association that provides some type of training.

However, the official is NOT protected if he is guilty of negligence,etc.

The Reasonably Prudent Official.
a. Knows the rules that are designed to protect the players;
b. Knows his or her responsibility in enforcing these rules; and
c. Does not permit anyone to prevent him or her from doing his or her job.
Asking the manager of a team if his equipment is legal is inherenty different( and will not offer any legal protection) than asking if his players are properly equipped. The latter statement was designed to get confirmation that the players are wearing their cups as required.(too personal to check, obviously) You will be held to the higher standard of checking the equipment prior to the game as this is both reasonable and customary to this level of baseball. It will not matter what the time limit is or that you are behind schedule or any other excuse for that matter. You are the trained professional and you are required to exercise all precautions regardless of who tells you otherwise.

1st question asked by the attorney of the person suing you will be something like this:
Is it reqired for an umpire working a game under Federation Rules to check all equipment prior to the contest beginning?
Your answer: Yes

Is it you and your partners responsibilty to determine which equipment is safe or not?
Your answer:Yes

Why didn't you check the equipment this time?
Your answer: Not enough time.

How long does it normally take to check the equipment?
Your answer: Less than 3-5 minutes for both teams.

Three to five minutes and my client would still have vision in his right eye.

Thank you, no more questions.
You are then screwed because you just admitted to gross negligence.

Many examples of umpires being sued but here is one below:


Nash vs. Borough of Wildwood (1983): Softball catcher playing without a mask in violation of rules sustained a partial loss of vision sued umpire for not giving him his mask and officiating from behind pitcher. Case settled

[heyblue26]

Nash vs. Borough of Wildwood (1983): Softball catcher playing without a mask in violation of rules sustained a partial loss of vision sued umpire for not giving him his mask and officiating from behind pitcher. Case settled[/QUOTE]

Yea I hear what you are saying here but as a player, coach are they not bound by following the rules as they are written and having made sure that the players have the correct catchers gear and that it is worn such as shin guards, chest protector, mask.

Sure the umpire could have called from behind the pitcher that would of been an option. but he didn't use it. The catcher had the same choice sorry coach I am not catching with out a mask. Did some one make him get behind the plate with out it and hog tie him down? Heck NO the dumb ass got behind the plate with out it and all should of been held for negligence.

For this simple reason thats why the games I do not start until I have checked the equipment If the bitch that too bad.

[dnemeth4809]

Baseball Participant levels of Responsibilties are such:

Player: only to himslef

Coaches: To players and themsleves

Managers: Coaches, players and themselves

School AD: Managers, Coaches, players and themselves

Umpires: All above and themselves

Unless the UIC upstairs shows up the umpires are responsible for all participants before, during and after the game until their duties are completed.

[heyblue26]

Baseball Participant levels of Responsibilties are such:

Player: only to himslef

Coaches: To players and themsleves

Managers: Coaches, players and themselves

School AD: Managers, Coaches, players and themselves

Umpires: All above and themselves

Unless the UIC upstairs shows up the umpires are responsible for all participants before, during and after the game until their duties are completed.

What rule book or manual did you use for references?