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View Full Version : Jim Evans or wendelstedt school


shagina
08-11-2010, 07:45 AM
i have been researching different schools and i would like to know. which one is the better school to go to.

Richard_Siegel
08-11-2010, 11:14 AM
i have been researching different schools and i would like to know. which one is the better school to go to.

Why don't you tell us first what differences, and good or bad points of each school you have learned so far from the research you have done. Then we will comment or your report.

denimvest
08-12-2010, 01:10 PM
I think the only person who could ever answer that question with any authority would be someone who actually attended both schools. Both schools have educated thousands of professional umpires, and both have alumni in MLB. I think it's like the equivalent of asking, "which is 'better' – Harvard or Stanford?" Both institutions will give you a great education, and the 'better' one is the one that seems like a better personal fit for you. Talk to people at both schools. Get a sense of the philosophy and the 'feel.' I don't think you can go 'wrong' with either one. You're most likely talking about the two finest institutions of their kind in the world. As with college or any educational experience, it's what you put into it that matters most. I'm sure either school can and will provide you with more quality information than you could ever possibly absorb in five weeks.

bluesails
08-12-2010, 03:10 PM
I thought this was really smart. When I attended a few years ago a couple of young men stopped by to check things out, on the field and in the classroom. They took the time to discretely observe, ask questions of students and instructors, check out living accommodations/meals etc. They did this at both schools as they were planning to attend the following year. It was during the 4th week, when things are in full swing. They got a good taste of each program I'm sure. Don't know where or if they went, but it was a good approach.

mmorgan78
08-12-2010, 04:01 PM
Sold!

cletus
09-07-2010, 06:54 PM
I have a friend that is a former MLB umpire and current NCAA umpire and he has been an instructor at both schools. I'm attending Jim Evans Academy this January solely based upon his recommendation.

Solsaa
09-07-2010, 08:54 PM
Not only a good choice, but the right choice.

bluesails
09-08-2010, 10:37 PM
You seem to have a preference...... but give no indication how you determined that superiority. Having an opinion is fine, you offered no rationale as to how you reached that conclusion.

johnnyg08
09-10-2010, 03:20 AM
While he didn't give a lot of support, it doesn't make it a bad post...if you want to know more about what he thinks...maybe consider just asking him.

bluesails
09-10-2010, 11:54 AM
Did not infer the post was 'bad'. Just interested as to what influenced his decision. You can take that as a question within a comment.

chuck1
09-12-2010, 05:27 PM
How many of the students picked are 2nd year students from each school? It would be hard for a first year guy to compete with a second year guy if they take a lot of 2nd timers. Also, someone would need to know this information and take it into consideration if they knew they would have to attend school twice to get a job. This would make it twice as expensive. If that's the case, they should run 2 classes, one in January and one if February for the guys who didn't make it to try again. At least you could get it done all in one year.
Don't know. Just asking.

jasonk
09-12-2010, 05:35 PM
I can tell you honestly that we do not encourage students to return for a second year unless the potential is there for them to get a job. We only have 3-5 returners a year. Most of our candidates are 1st year students. Hope that helps!

bluesails
09-12-2010, 06:19 PM
I can attest to what JasonK has said. There were about that amount,(3-5) of returning 2nd year students when I attended. They were, from what they told me, encouraged to repeat because they had scored well and had what they were looking for but had some areas to work on. The school indicated they had a good chance to be promoted to PBUC if improved those areas sufficiently. They do not bullshit you to get you to come back. I think all the 2nd year guys got jobs that year. There were some that had gone to both schools and a few who had gone 3, 4, even one 5 timer. They were all good umpires but didn't fit the mold I guess.

chuck1
09-12-2010, 06:46 PM
I can tell you honestly that we do not encourage students to return for a second year unless the potential is there for them to get a job. We only have 3-5 returners a year. Most of our candidates are 1st year students. Hope that helps!


I can attest to what JasonK has said. There were about that amount,(3-5) of returning 2nd year students when I attended. They were, from what they told me, encouraged to repeat because they had scored well and had what they were looking for but had some areas to work on. The school indicated they had a good chance to be promoted to PBUC if improved those areas sufficiently. They do not bullshit you to get you to come back. I think all the 2nd year guys got jobs that year. There were some that had gone to both schools and a few who had gone 3, 4, even one 5 timer. They were all good umpires but didn't fit the mold I guess.

Thanks for your candid responses. I just think that information is important.

Another question then.

How many total students got a job that year. If 5 were 2nd year students and 10 received jobs, that means 5 first year and 5 second year students made it. That means that 5 second year students took away 5 jobs from 5 other first year students had those 5 2nd years not attended at all. If only 1 of the 5 2nd year students received a job that would leave 9 first year guys with a job. In other words in the first scenario only 50% were first year but in the 2nd scenario 90% were first year.

Once again, just asking, but I think it is important to know the total situation before making the commitment.

Thanks for your response.

jasonk
09-12-2010, 08:35 PM
There were 25 sent to PBUC. I believe you are looking at this the wrong way. Second year students compete the same against all other students. They don't take jobs from first year students. In fact, it is harder for a second year student at our school because they are already expected to know the system. Also, are you concerned that your performance will land getting ranked at about #26? You should go to school with the expectation that you will be #1. All you need is 1 job to be available, who cares about trying to figure the rest out? Make sense?

chuck1
09-13-2010, 01:57 AM
There were 25 sent to PBUC. I believe you are looking at this the wrong way. Second year students compete the same against all other students. They don't take jobs from first year students. In fact, it is harder for a second year student at our school because they are already expected to know the system. Also, are you concerned that your performance will land getting ranked at about #26? You should go to school with the expectation that you will be #1. All you need is 1 job to be available, who cares about trying to figure the rest out? Make sense?

Thanks for your candor. This whole paragraph hits the nail on the head for the facts and the approach to take. It speaks volumes that you took your time to respectfully respond to the concerns presented. Thanks.

bluesails
09-13-2010, 12:27 PM
I can add if I may, Returning students do have a leg up because they have a familiarity with the system........but only initially. After a few weeks everyone is on the same page and 1st year students with capability are attuned to the program. Placement evaluations really don't begin until the final week, so by then any advantage has long since been equalized. We had 130 in our class, 25 got promoted, the #1 and #2 students were 1st year. I was not after a job,(too old) but wanted the experience. For whatever reason one attends you will become a much better umpire, and you will know and understand the rules like never before.

henthorn11
05-03-2011, 05:49 PM
Evans...without a doubt. Better track record.....I am heading to the 5 week school in 2012...I have recieved nothing but 1st class treatment from the Evans Staff. When I was researching...I made phone calls...The "other school" just didnt treat me like they cared. More worried about my money, not the experience that I would gain.

Read the book....Baseballs narrowest window. You can find it on the web.

Richard_Siegel
05-03-2011, 07:18 PM
In 2007, Tom Clark, who was an instructor at JEAPU posted the advice below. Tom doesn't post here on URC very often now, but I have saved his "advice" as I find it an extraordinary list if wisdom for anyone who is thinking about attending either umpire school should know.
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Tom Clarkeís advice: heading to Jimmyís school
Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:25 pm
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I posted this on another site and it was brought to my attention that I may be neglecting guys that don't read both. I hope somebody finds something of use. The thoughts are rambling, but there are some useful tidbits in there. I hope it helps somebody.

First, if you have started post-high school education and you are going to umpire school looking for a job finish your education first. Only 1% of guys that start in professional ball make it to the show, so you need something to fall back on.

There are always a few guys in each class that have attended before. I was one of them. There are many reasons why they come back. I got hurt my first year and missed too much time to be considered for a spot to PBUC. Other guys may be slower to pick things up but feel that they had come on strong at the end of the session and think they may be able to get a job if they attend again. Others are simply delusional. Whatever the case may be, if you are a second year student, you are expected to be head and shoulders above the rest. Day one of training for everyone else is day one of week 6 for the second year student.

A suit or sport coat and dress pants is the dress for the final nightís banquet, wear it on the plane on your way down. It will save it from getting wrinkled in your luggage and may make a good first impression on the instructors when they pick you up at the airport. YES, those are instructors who pick you up from the airport. They won't identify themselves as instructors, because your evaluation as a person has already begun. There have been guys that have shot themselves in the foot before they even got to the hotel to check in. I speak from experience. Expect a phone call at the airport to try and locate you. Have your phone on and handy. It is chaos on arrival day for the apprentices as they scramble to get everyone picked up. Be patient! There are a ton of guys arriving and only 2 or 3 shuttles running to try and get everyone. Be polite at the hotel. Again, those guys helping with the check in process are instructors. Donít make a bad name for yourself. Be patient with this process, too. DON'T complain about your roommate. You share a room with your partner in ďAĒ ball, and you don't get to pick him. Roommate quarrels will be a part of your evaluation if you have problems.

After you get settled, make friends with someone that has a car and go to Wal-Mart (this is also necessary to get yourself to class each day.) Go out of the hotel to the right and keep going. Itís 4 or 5 miles down on the left. Get shoe cleaning stuff and some cheap towels or rags. If you use the hotelís towels to clean your shoes they will charge you. Jimmy usually gives out some red rags for shoe cleaning, but they shed. Get some of your own. Get a few gallons of drinking water because the Florida water is not good. Take note of stuff around you on your trip. Just past the Wal-Mart there is a laundry place on the left (near the Sonic) that will do your laundry for you or you can do it yourself. If you're more adventurous, there is another laundry place if you go to the left a few miles. Itís behind the Walgreens. That place is my favorite because they have a huge talking parrot that lives inside. Youíll pass a Hess station that is good in the morning or after class for random stuff you may need. Itís affectionately known amongst instructors as the ďWorld's Greatest Hess station.Ē Also, if you don't have Firehouse Subs where you live, make a point to visit it while you're down there. Theyíre grrrrrrrreat. Itís located down near the Wal-Mart.

As for on the field stuff, try to do your best not to get down on yourself. Take everything the training has to offer in stride and use all of it to better yourself as an umpire. The instructors do not discriminate between those that are competing for a job and those that are just there to get better. The training is the same for everyone. They will get on you, and they will try to expose your weaknesses on the field and use them against you. It is very easy to get discouraged, but it is much better to have your weaknesses exposed during the training than out in the real world. Everything that happens is done to make you a better umpire. Do not be afraid to make mistakes in the first few weeks. It is 100% true when Jim says that the discussion about who's going to PBUC doesn't start until the 4th week. Itís ok to screw things up. Itís expected and encouraged, as long as you learn from it. You will hear many times that guys are making day 2 mistakes on day 5 or something along those lines. Make day 2 mistakes on day 2, learn from them, and then don't make them again.

Ask questions if you need to, but don't jump ahead of the training. Jim covers EVERYTHING and he has an order in which he does it. Most likely your question will be answered before you need to ask it, but it may get answered a couple of days down the road. Write your questions down and then ask them later if he doesn't answer it when you get to that section of the training.

Work on "proper use of eyes" starting right now. Take a balled up pair of socks, lie on your back, throw it up in the air and catch it. Track it the whole way up and down only moving your eyes. If you go out for a ride in the car with someone else driving, track stuff with your eyes and keep your head still. Track passing cars, passing signs, anything. Try to train your eyes to move independently from your head. Continue the sock training at night in the hotel. He won't start you on tracking until late in week 2 or early week 3, but you'll be way ahead of the game if you start exercising your eyes now.

Keep your uniform neat. Press your pants in your room once a week or more. Clean your shoes. Shave. Help your group out as much as you can. After a while it will be obvious who the front runners for jobs are. If you have a likely candidate in your cage group, do whatever you can to help him without badgering him in the process. Learn from everything. Watching the drills can be even more beneficial than doing them. Use the time waiting in line for your turn to see what other guys do right and wrong. By the time your turn comes, you will have seen 50 reps of the same thing. Ask the apprentice instructors questions while you are waiting in line, that's what they are there for. Do not, however, corner them and try to trick them with strange situations. They WILL talk about it with senior staff and it will come back to haunt you.

STRETCH! Stretch in the morning, at lunch, when you get home, and before going to bed. Sitting in the classroom will tighten your muscles up without you even realizing it. There is time built in for stretching before beginning the outdoor activities, but extra will benefit you as the weeks wear on.

Buy stuff from the store in the classroom! The first year instructors run that store and the profits from it make up about half of their pay. They are apprentice instructors and are only paid about 800 bucks for the month. They do all of the grunt work. Help them out by buying their stuff, and spread the word to other students!

Bring a cheap VCR if you have one, or split the cost of a cheapo from Wal-Mart with your roommate. There is a video review room which you should make use of because it's staffed with instructors to answer questions and give advice, but it's only open a couple of hours each night. Itís great to be able to watch your video whenever you want, and you can have your whole cage group come over and watch them together.

Do not expect much, if any, positive reinforcement. "Not bad" means you're probably doing a good job. Jimmyís philosophy is tough love. The instructors are not there to coddle you. Also, if they tell a guy "good job" a bunch of times and he ends up not going to PBUC, that may result in issues. You won't hear them say ďgood jobĒ very often, though it does slip out every now and then.

Learn the instructors' names. They don't wear name tags. After a couple of days their pictures will be posted in the back of the classroom. You won't be quizzed on it, but you should study it a couple of minutes each day. Donít call them sir, or Mr. xxxx, or any nickname you may hear them calling each other. Use their first name. Do not ask questions during breaks. Breaks are breaks and the instructors need them! The first year guys have to set up their snack bar and the older guys have to use the bathroom, get a drink, or plan the next activity. They are only 10 or 15 minutes long and they need every minute of it.

For those of you that have heard the instruction compared to basic training, there are some similarities, but there really isn't any comparison. The mechanics and positioning are really the only things that are totally broken down to be cookie cutter. Itís the easiest way to evaluate guys. Make everyone look the same and then evaluate performance instead of style. It works at school and it's what PBUC wants the first couple of years. There will be time near the end of the 5 weeks where you will work a little bit on style.

If you go out at night, do not get in trouble. Everybody in the area knows who you are. The school goes on every year and there is an influx of guys that have "the look." People know who you are and where you're from and if crap happens it will get back to Jimmy. If you go into a bar and see instructors, leave. If you go to a specific destination, howl at the moon, Church St., etc and there are instructors, stay away from them. Donít buy them drinks, don't go hang out with them. If you must pass them, a simple hello will suffice. Donít hang out in the hotel bar if you want a job. Do hang out in the hotel bar if you want to hear war stories from Jimmy and you are not looking for a job.

The camaraderie among students is what you make it. I made life-long friends at umpire school, both as a student and as an instructor. They are both professional umpires and guys that didnít make it. My roommate my second year was 50+, was married, had a family, and was just there to better himself as an umpire. I have remained in contact with him. His family has come to visit me on the road, he sends care packages, and things like that. If you want to make friends, you can make ones that will last forever. Everybody that attends the school shares the common bond of the love of umpiring.

As far as being supportive or seeking out rivalries is concerned, it is, again, what you make it. There is evidence of both every year. Jimmy repeatedly uses the analogy of trying to climb up a ladder. The guys that climb at a slow, steady pace make it to the top quicker than the guys that take time to try and kick the people behind them down off of the ladder.

I too, find it amazing the number of guys that sit in the bar at the hotel every year. While Iím sure it makes for great story time with Jim, you arenít there for story time. Youíre there to get a job. If, however, you aren't there to get a job, the yarns he spins during these sessions would likely be of interest. Veteran instructors do not hang out in the hotel bar. In fact, it's often tough to find the instructors at night if you don't know exactly where to look. If you did happen to know where to look, you are probably doing the wrong thing.

There usually are a couple of "that guys" each year. Donít be "that guy." Sometimes they know who they are, and other times they are so oblivious to the fact that it's even more amusing.

The down time issue is another "what you make of it" type of thing. Class starts promptly at 8am. If you arrive at 8, you are late. You have an hour at lunch, and then class gets out between 5 and 6. Dinner is served at the hotel from 6-7:30. The video review room is open from 7-9 or 7-10. You don't have to use the review room if you don't want. There is no structure to the evenings. Once you leave the complex, you are on your own until 8am the next day. You usually will have some homework to do, and there is always studying to keep you occupied, but there is time at night to do other things if that is what you want to do.

Sorry that this was all over the place, thoughts just kept popping into my head. For those of you that are headed down there, you will have the time of your life! Have a blast.

= = =

jroddy10
05-05-2011, 02:15 PM
Evans was a great school and I would recommend it to anybody. The one problem was, as the post above me shows... A grown man should be able to responsibly go and have a drink or watch a game inside a bar without having to worry about "getting in trouble or losing a job". Yes its a job interview but for 5 weeks you live at this hotel and if you ask me proving that you can go and have a good time with people at the hotel bar without problem or making a fool out of yourself it shows some responsibility... Tip toeing around people you could possibly be spending a majority of your career around or with just doesnt make sense to me. If you act like a man you will be treated like a man.

Richard_Siegel
05-05-2011, 02:47 PM
Evans was a great school and I would recommend it to anybody. The one problem was, as the post above me shows... A grown man should be able to responsibly go and have a drink or watch a game inside a bar without having to worry about "getting in trouble or losing a job". Yes its a job interview but for 5 weeks you live at this hotel and if you ask me proving that you can go and have a good time with people at the hotel bar without problem or making a fool out of yourself it shows some responsibility... Tip toeing around people you could possibly be spending a majority of your career around or with just doesn't make sense to me. If you act like a man you will be treated like a man.

I think you misunderstood the message. Tom clearly advises students to go out to a bar if you want to. Just behave yourself and don't cause any trouble because the school will find out about it and it will reflect poorly on you. The other point is that the staff and instructors are frequently at the hotel bar. The instructors need their down time and they do not want to socialize with the students. It is not because the staff want to be mean or aloof. The instructors are among the nicest folks you could ever know. The staff must keep their distance socially from the students because they have to evaluate them and rank them at some point. They need to maintain an objective and professional teacher-student relationship. They do not want to allow or encourage any of the students to become too chummy with them. They don't want students buying them drinks. They do not want to allow any perception that a student is trying to get "in good" with the staff by being overly friendly or generous with drinks and favors. That is also why Tom suggests that if you go into any bar or restaurant and see staffs guys are there it would be best if you left and went elsewhere.

heyblue26
05-06-2011, 02:23 PM
I think you misunderstood the message. Tom clearly advises students to go out to a bar if you want to. Just behave yourself and don't cause any trouble because the school will find out about it and it will reflect poorly on you. The other point is that the staff and instructors are frequently at the hotel bar. The instructors need their down time and they do not want to socialize with the students. It is not because the staff want to be mean or aloof. The instructors are among the nicest folks you could ever know. The staff must keep their distance socially from the students because they have to evaluate them and rank them at some point. They need to maintain an objective and professional teacher-student relationship. They do not want to allow or encourage any of the students to become too chummy with them. They don't want students buying them drinks. They do not want to allow any perception that a student is trying to get "in good" with the staff by being overly friendly or generous with drinks and favors. That is also why Tom suggests that if you go into any bar or restaurant and see staffs guys are there it would be best if you left and went elsewhere.

I remember reading this exact same thing and its good advice and I support what Tom's article and what Richard again has mentionened above as what he meant and said. +2