Infield Fly

[bklynump]

What happened here?

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=10483479

[p1timeblue]

Believing the force was still in effect, U2 crossed the baseline and obstructed R1 XD

[Richard_Siegel]

What happened here?

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=10483479

I think there was a screw up here.

The BR is out on the IFR for out #2. It is a fair ball. Since the ball was not caught the runners do not have to tag up even though the BR is still out. R1 could NOT have been forced out at 2B because the IFR removes the force. U2 properly signal "safe" when the fielder applies a tag on U1 at 2B. It appears to me that R1 was not tagged while off of 2B so I do not know what the third out is. Anybody know?

[p1timeblue]

I think there was a screw up here.

The BR is out on the IFR for out #2. It is a fair ball. Since the ball was not caught the runners do not have to tag up even though the BR is still out. R1 could NOT have been forced out at 2B because the IFR removes the force. U2 properly signal "safe" when the fielder applies a tag on U1 at 2B. It appears to me that R1 was not tagged while off of 2B so I do not know what the third out is. Anybody know?

Out 3 happened when F2 forced R1. You can see U2 do a hammer after crossing the baseline. All which are wrong anyway.

OR

Out 3 happened when R1 was tagged off the bag, but U2 initially signalled "safe."

[Richard_Siegel]

Out 3 happened when F2 forced R1. You can see U2 do a hammer after crossing the baseline. All which are wrong anyway.

OR

Out 3 happened when R1 was tagged off the bag, but U2 initially signalled "safe."

There can be no force whe the IFR is enforced.

Once R1 was ruled safe at 2B (correctly) why would he step off the base? I does not look like he ever stepped off 2B to me.

[p1timeblue]

U2 makes a casual "out" hammer after the 2-4 throw.

[nopachunts]

Once R1 was ruled safe at 2B (correctly) why would he step off the base? I does not look like he ever stepped off 2B to me.

The runner at 2B is off the bag around 0:14 and is tagged. I thought the runner had retouched before being tagged but U2 judged otherwise.

[BrianC14]

The runner at 2B is off the bag around 0:14 and is tagged. I thought the runner had retouched before being tagged but U2 judged otherwise.

No, he emphatically called him 'SAFE' on that tag attempt.

What's really puzzling is that he (U2) preceded that 'Safe' call by calling him out as F4 takes the throw from F2 - - on a "force" that didn't exist.

They kicked it.

[BrianC14]

There can be no force whe the IFR is enforced.

Once R1 was ruled safe at 2B (correctly) why would he step off the base? I does not look like he ever stepped off 2B to me.

Richard, are we watching the same vid?

R1 clearly steps off the bag - - but only after U2 called him out on the (nonexistent) "force". (Watch U2 as he's behind the bag, give a half-hearted 'hammer' when F2 throws to F4). THEN R1 comes off the bag... then F4 tries to tag him... and then U2 says 'Safe'.

Cockeyed play all around, both umpires and players.

[nwsquid]

I could have sworn U2's out signal was to confirm (or call) the IFFR. I think he was all good until he started doubting himself and looking to his crew-mates.

Just tried to over think it.

[BrianC14]

I could have sworn U2's out signal was to confirm (or call) the IFFR. I think he was all good until he started doubting himself and looking to his crew-mates.

Just tried to over think it.

I was wondering where he was going as the defense is scurrying off the field (you can see them briefly look around and then they decide they'd better get while the gettin's good)... and then U2 for some :::curious reason :::: starts strolling toward home plate... hmmm.. wonder why....

:)

[thunderheads]

From the Left Field Corner , the Umpire Ejection Fantasy League ....

Tim McClelland (36)'s crew helped turn an odd double play over the weekend. With one out and runners on first and second base in the top of the 1st inning of Saturday's Pirates-Cardinals game, Pirates first baseman Garrett Jones hit a high pop fly on a 1-1 pitch from Cardinals pitcher Jeff Suppan. The infield fly rule was invoked by 2B Umpire Mike Everett (57) and McClelland (though not immediately), as Cardinals catcher Yadier Molina dropped the fair pop fly. Molina threw to second base in an attempt to retire Pirates second baseman Neil Walker who decided to run at his own peril from first base. Replays indicate second base was tagged in advance of Walker's arrival, Walker's person was tagged while he was on the second base bag, and Everett correctly ruled Walker safe. However, after initial thought, Everett changed the call and ruled Walker out, creating an unusual (and incorrectly ruled) inning ending double play.

Video: http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=10483479 (http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=10483479)

[eagle_12]

My take on his thought process:

I'm thinking he's got the out on the IFF. (Out #2). And a failure to retouch second base after a caught fly ball (which it wasn't) on R2.

If R1 at second base was out already, no need to give the safe signal when the tag attempt was made, that's why I'm going with the call for not retouching.

[thunderheads]

My take on his thought process:

I'm thinking he's got the out on the IFF. (Out #2). And a failure to retouch second base after a caught fly ball (which it wasn't) on R2.

If R1 at second base was out already, no need to give the safe signal when the tag attempt was made, that's why I'm going with the call for not retouching.

No, they called him out on the force, thus why it was botched, because the force is gone w/ an IFF

[Richard_Siegel]

My take on his thought process:

I'm thinking he's got the out on the IFF. (Out #2). And a failure to retouch second base after a caught fly ball (which it wasn't) on R2.

If R1 at second base was out already, no need to give the safe signal when the tag attempt was made, that's why I'm going with the call for not retouching.

Not retouching? No fly ball was caught. There is no requirement for any runner retouch anything, except U2 might need to retouch the rule book.

[Richard_Siegel]

Not retouching? No fly ball was caught. There is no requirement for any runner retouch anything, except U2 might need to retouch the rule book.

If anybody can find a write up of the game in a newspaper (on-line) it might mention of the play was argued and if there was a mistake. The video cuts off before we might have seen if any managers had the chance to ask the umpires about the play. If anybody knows how to find the official box score of the game (team's website or MLB website) it would indicate a description of the play and it would mention if a mistake was made. Two years ago there was a BOO in an MLB game and the umpires call the wrong batter out. It was clearly written in the box score that the wrong batter was called out. Maybe this box score will have more info.

[thunderheads]

If anybody can find a write up of the game in a newspaper (on-line) it might mention of the play was argued and if there was a mistake. The video cuts off before we might have seen if any managers had the chance to ask the umpires about the play. If anybody knows how to find the official box score of the game (team's website or MLB website) it would indicate a description of the play and it would mention if a mistake was made. Two years ago there was a BOO in an MLB game and the umpires call the wrong batter out. It was clearly written in the box score that the wrong batter was called out. Maybe this box score will have more info.

nothing there..........
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/boxscore.jsp?gid=2010_07_31_pitmlb_slnmlb_1

[Richard_Siegel]

nothing there..........
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/boxscore.jsp?gid=2010_07_31_pitmlb_slnmlb_1

Isn't there a verbal play-by-play description of the game somewhere?

[thunderheads]

Isn't there a verbal play-by-play description of the game somewhere?

Yes, scroll down to the tab "play by play" ....nothing there either :confused:
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2010_07_31_pitmlb_slnmlb_1&mode=wrap

[p1timeblue]

Yahoo has them down as having a 2-4 double play:


- G. Jones popped out to catcher, N. Walker (R1) out at second

[BrianC14]

Yahoo has them down as having a 2-4 double play:


- G. Jones popped out to catcher, N. Walker (R1) out at second

And when the Cards got to their dugout, they also said, "Yahooo!" ;)

[johnnyg08]

Is there a camera angle of any umpire signaling IFF?

Is it possible that they didn't call IFF? Although if they didn't then there would only be one out and not an inning ending double play.

Hmmmmm....I think they kicked it. We're all human, but how to four MLB umpires kick that call? Yet two weeks ago, they got together and changed a foul ball to a fair ball...doesn't make sense...if you're going to "get it right" this is a classic example of getting the play right.

Skip shouldn't have to come unglued on the field for these guys to get that type of play right. I wonder how long after they cleared the field that he realized what he just did?

[ump_24]

Is there a camera angle of any umpire signaling IFF?

Is it possible that they didn't call IFF? Although if they didn't then there would only be one out and not an inning ending double play.

Hmmmmm....I think they kicked it. We're all human, but how to four MLB umpires kick that call? Yet two weeks ago, they got together and changed a foul ball to a fair ball...doesn't make sense...if you're going to "get it right" this is a classic example of getting the play right.

Skip shouldn't have to come unglued on the field for these guys to get that type of play right. I wonder how long after they cleared the field that he realized what he just did?

U2 made the initial signal, even though the ball was in the jurisdiction of PU.

Textbook lesson on why the initial IFF signal belongs to the umpire with primary fly ball jurisdiction.

[p1timeblue]

0:08: U2 made the first signal, and then PU followed-suit.

What I wish to see was what PU and U1 were saying/signalling during U2's conference from 80' away. Regardless, they still blew it.

[p1timeblue]

U2 made the initial signal, even though the ball was in the jurisdiction of PU.

Textbook lesson on why the initial IFF signal belongs to the umpire with primary fly ball jurisdiction.

This has nothing to do with it. It's a pop up in the infield, and you see F2 camping with ordinary effort under it. Are you going to wait until it's too late to call the batter out?

They just had a brain fart. Maybe adding to it were the runners advancing, and the crew not hearing/seeing each other make the signal. I think the correct calls could have been made if they had a conference, but they're too proud for that, right?

[Richard_Siegel]

100% KICKED.

I watched the video 12 times. IFR for out #2. Throw to 2B was made because F2 probably was not sure of the IFR and did it out of reflex. U2 bagan to hammer an out but realized he was wrong and ended up doing "weak" out he probably couldn't hold back. R1 was never tagged before reach 2B, there is not force and nobody has to retouch any base. I bet a base coach hollared to R1 to "stay on the base, no force" which caused the fielder to suddenly try to tag the runner. However, the runner was still on the base and U2 makes a emphatic "safe."

When U2 calls time and walks into the grass and points at somebody as if he is asking a question, I have no idea what he might be asking. I have no idea why he changed the safe to out.

[BrianC14]

This has nothing to do with it. It's a pop up in the infield, and you see F2 camping with ordinary effort under it. Are you going to wait until it's too late to call the batter out?

They just had a brain fart. Maybe adding to it were the runners advancing, and the crew not hearing/seeing each other make the signal. I think the correct calls could have been made if they had a conference, but they're too proud for that, right?

Actually, that ball was close enough to the 3B line to the point where U2 should have waited for the plate umpire to decide it.. ("Infield fly, if fair") should have / could have been called by Tim McClelland.

[BrianC14]

100% KICKED.

I watched the video 12 times. IFR for out #2. Throw to 2B was made because F2 probably was not sure of the IFR and did it out of reflex. U2 bagan to hammer an out but realized he was wrong and ended up doing "weak" out he probably couldn't hold back. R1 was never tagged before reach 2B, there is not force and nobody has to retouch any base. I bet a base coach hollared to R1 to "stay on the base, no force" which caused the fielder to suddenly try to tag the runner. However, the runner was still on the base and U2 makes a emphatic "safe."

When U2 calls time and walks into the grass and points at somebody as if he is asking a question, I have no idea what he might be asking. I have no idea why he changed the safe to out.

And all in the first inning, no less. :o

[ump_24]

Actually, that ball was close enough to the 3B line to the point where U2 should have waited for the plate umpire to decide it.. ("Infield fly, if fair") should have / could have been called by Tim McClelland.

I think I've seen that before on here...

U2 made the initial signal, even though the ball was in the jurisdiction of PU.

Textbook lesson on why the initial IFF signal belongs to the umpire with primary fly ball jurisdiction.

:D

[BrianC14]

I think I've seen that before on here...



:D


Yay. :)

I think P1 may have been missing the fact that the ball was fairly close to the line; typically, you don't concern yourself with who's going to call it first - unless you have the fair/foul issue, or as you've called it, "jurisdiction". ;)

[chuck1]

If anybody can find a write up of the game in a newspaper (on-line) it might mention of the play was argued and if there was a mistake. The video cuts off before we might have seen if any managers had the chance to ask the umpires about the play. If anybody knows how to find the official box score of the game (team's website or MLB website) it would indicate a description of the play and it would mention if a mistake was made. Two years ago there was a BOO in an MLB game and the umpires call the wrong batter out. It was clearly written in the box score that the wrong batter was called out. Maybe this box score will have more info.

Best I can do Richard

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10214/1077025-63.stm

[thunderheads]

Best I can do Richard

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10214/1077025-63.stm

Looks like this writer is REALLY into umpiring too, doesn't he!? I mean, he saw the ump "THUMB THE OUT"?? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Everitt, raising his right thumb just about as meekly as McClelland had, evidently ruled a forceout because there never was a tag.

[thunderheads]

0:08: U2 made the first signal, and then PU followed-suit.



No, the :08 is McClelland signaling 'fair ball' , then 'out' ....you can see the fist...

[eagle_12]

Not retouching? No fly ball was caught. There is no requirement for any runner retouch anything, except U2 might need to retouch the rule book.

I know this I was just going by what I thought the umps thought process might be and the way I took his signaling. I realize that the ball wasn't caught and no retouch needed. i thought my post made this clear.