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britinmuc
07-15-2010, 02:43 PM
following (theoretical) sit.
R1
count not important.

batter hits a scorcher into cf, ball would not have left live territory of its own accord (umpires decision).
cf throws mitt at ball and deflects path - ball stops in live.

r1 advances to r3 on hit.
br passes 1b and reaches 2b with no play been made on him.

ball is still live

ok my preposed mechanics:

call the interference as it happens ("thats inteference; detached gear") let play continue until
a) everyone stops at which point if the runners havnt advanced the 3bases what they would have received, call time and award bases as appropriate
b) play is made (tagplay, whatever) - if runners have advanced at own risk, make the call on the tag otherwise call time, award bases

if the runners advance to the bases they would have been awarded then no time is called - play continues.

comments?

jtn93
07-15-2010, 03:04 PM
RULE 7.05

Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advance—
(c) Three bases, if a fielder deliberately throws his glove at and touches a fair ball. The ball is in play and the batter may advance to home base at his peril.



You should have sent the first runner home and the BR gets third

britinmuc
07-15-2010, 03:16 PM
RULE 7.05

Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advanceó
(c) Three bases, if a fielder deliberately throws his glove at and touches a fair ball. The ball is in play and the batter may advance to home base at his peril.



You should have sent the first runner home and the BR gets third

i know the rules :)
but ball is live, so you shouldnt call time and award bases until you have to.

killing the play and awarding bases immediately sort of contradicts the last bit:
"The ball is in play and the batter may advance to home base at his peril."

shickenbottom
07-15-2010, 03:17 PM
RULE 7.05

Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advanceó
(c) Three bases, if a fielder deliberately throws his glove at and touches a fair ball. The ball is in play and the batter may advance to home base at his peril.

You should have sent the first runner home and the BR gets third

Be aware this award is a "Time of Interference" award, not a "Time of Pitch" or "Time of Throw" award.

Meaning when you see the detached equipment contact occur, you need to determine the position of your Batter / Runner. Since this is a 3 base award at the time of contact, if the B/R has already passed 1st based, they would be awarded home.

jtn93
07-15-2010, 03:22 PM
i know the rules :)
but ball is live, so you shouldnt call time and award bases until you have to.

killing the play and awarding bases immediately sort of contradicts the last bit:
"The ball is in play and the batter may advance to home base at his peril."

let it play out, signal 'that's interference' on the CF and than see how it plays out and award bases after

britinmuc
07-15-2010, 03:29 PM
Be aware this award is a "Time of Interference" award, not a "Time of Pitch" or "Time of Throw" award.

Meaning when you see the detached equipment contact occur, you need to determine the position of your Batter / Runner. Since this is a 3 base award at the time of contact, if the B/R has already passed 1st based, they would be awarded home.
ooo makes sense, never really thought about that - thanks

Assign
07-15-2010, 04:36 PM
Be aware this award is a "Time of Interference" award, not a "Time of Pitch" or "Time of Throw" award.


shick: Interesting...I did not know that...can you quote somethign to prove that,,,thanks

ump_24
07-15-2010, 04:48 PM
shick: Interesting...I did not know that...can you quote somethign to prove that,,,thanks

He won't be able to, because he is wrong.

Detached equipment on a batted ball is a three base award from time of the pitch.

Thrown or pitched balls is when the "time of interference" element comes in.

BTW, I've always been taught the proper mechanic is to point and verbalize "That's detached equipment!"

Bottom line: as long as you indicate in a relatively obvious manner a rules violation has occurred, you're good to go.

shickenbottom
07-15-2010, 05:22 PM
He won't be able to, because he is wrong.

Detached equipment on a batted ball is a three base award from time of the pitch.

Thrown or pitched balls is when the "time of interference" element comes in.

BTW, I've always been taught the proper mechanic is to point and verbalize "That's detached equipment!"

Bottom line: as long as you indicate in a relatively obvious manner a rules violation has occurred, you're good to go.


Heres your "Unfindable" Proof and it's source:

Source: Jacksa/Roder - Rules of Professional Baseball Pg:62

Detatched Gear Section D (a)
If the ball is not touched, no penalty or award is applicable. If the ball is contacted, the ball remains live and every runner is awarded:
Three bases beyond the base occupied at the time of the INFRACTION (contact) on a batted ball (7.05b), (7.05c)
Two bases beyond the base occupied at the time of the INFRACTION (contact) on a thrown ball (7.05d), (7.05e)
One base beyond the base occupied at the time of the INFRACTION (contact) on a pitched ball (NFHS 8-3-3c-1

Dano
07-15-2010, 05:39 PM
NFHS (Fed)

Also has all touching of detached or illegal equipment as

TIME OF INFRACTION

ump_24
07-15-2010, 05:51 PM
Heres your "Unfindable" Proof and it's source:

Source: Jacksa/Roder - Rules of Professional Baseball Pg:62

Detatched Gear Section D (a)
If the ball is not touched, no penalty or award is applicable. If the ball is contacted, the ball remains live and every runner is awarded:
Three bases beyond the base occupied at the time of the INFRACTION (contact) on a batted ball (7.05b), (7.05c)
Two bases beyond the base occupied at the time of the INFRACTION (contact) on a thrown ball (7.05d), (7.05e)
One base beyond the base occupied at the time of the INFRACTION (contact) on a pitched ball (NFHS 8-3-3c-1

OBR only:

Read the rule iteself again

7.05(c) Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advance three bases, if a fielder deliberately throws his glove at and touches a fair ball. The ball is in play and the batter may advance to home base at his peril.

There is no need to have an interpretation on it, period.

Any advance by the batter beyond third is at his own peril.

mike_l
07-15-2010, 06:02 PM
From the PBUC Bluebook

6.9 DETACHED EQUIPMENT TOUCHING PITCHED OR BATTED BALL
Any defensive player deliberately touching a pitched ball with detached equipment (such as a catcher's mask, cap, etc.) will entitle all runners to advance one base from the time the ball was touched without liability to be put out. The ball is in play, and runners may advance beyond the awarded base at their own risk.
Any defensive player deliberately touching a batted ball over fair territory with detached equipment will entitle all runners - including the batter-runner -to advance three bases from the time the ball was touched without liability to be put out. The ball is in play, and runners may advance beyond the awarded base at their own risk.
Any defensive player deliberately touching a batted ball over foul territory that, in the umpire's judgment, has an opportunity to become a fair ball with detached equipment will entitle all runners - including the batter-runner - to advance three bases from the time the ball was touched without liability to be put out. The ball is in play, and runners may advance beyond the awarded base at their own risk.
If a defensive player deliberately touches a batted ball over foul territory that, in the umpire's judgment, clearly has no opportunity to become a fair ball, the umpire shall rule a foul ball. (See Official Baseball Rule 7.05(c).)

shickenbottom
07-15-2010, 06:03 PM
OBR only:

Read the rule iteself again

There is no need to have an interpretation on it, period.

Any advance by the batter beyond third is at his own peril.

ump24, dig your head out of the sand. The interpretations are there to help guide us and give us extra insight into the Rules and what the rule makers intended. The Rule may be written that way, however, the rule does not tell us whether it is a Time of Pitch, Time of Throw, or Time of Infraction. The interpretation does and this is what is being taught at Pro-Schools. As for using the letter of the rule, that is fine, however to be able to properly apply the rule, you must understand the interpretations behind them.

If you didn't know Chris Jacksa and Rick Roder were instructors at the Joe Brinkman Umpire School which became the Jim Evans Academy where Rick Roder was also an instructor.

Richard_Siegel
07-15-2010, 06:33 PM
He won't be able to, because he is wrong.

Detached equipment on a batted ball is a three base award from time of the pitch.......

If this were true, that touching a batted ball with DE was a TOP award, then outfielders chasing a ball in the gap or in the corner would have nothing to lose. They would constantly throw their mitts at balls to try and stop them. If the outfielder figures the BR is going to make it to 3B anyway, or if R1 is going to score anyway, if the outfielder can stop the ball sooner by throwing his mitt at it, then he might have a chance to get the guy while he is running passed 3B "at his own peril."

However, the reason that outfielders chasing a ball in the gap usually do NOT throw their mitts at balls to try and stop them is because the award is Time of Infraction. So most BR's would be passed 1B by the time an outfielder got the chance to throw his mitt at the ball.

dileonardoja
07-15-2010, 08:29 PM
OBR only:

Read the rule iteself again



There is no need to have an interpretation on it, period.

Any advance by the batter beyond third is at his own peril.

Ump 24, You have just designated yourself as a completely irrelevant as a replier!

ump_24
07-15-2010, 09:18 PM
ump24, dig your head out of the sand.

Wasn't in the sand....was in bed, literally.

Still. You = right. Me = wrong. Maybe if I had cared to crawl out and actually look this up first...

If this were true, that touching a batted ball with DE was a TOP award, then outfielders chasing a ball in the gap or in the corner would have nothing to lose. They would constantly throw their mitts at balls to try and stop them. If the outfielder figures the BR is going to make it to 3B anyway, or if R1 is going to score anyway, if the outfielder can stop the ball sooner by throwing his mitt at it, then he might have a chance to get the guy while he is running passed 3B "at his own peril."

However, the reason that outfielders chasing a ball in the gap usually do NOT throw their mitts at balls to try and stop them is because the award is Time of Infraction. So most BR's would be passed 1B by the time an outfielder got the chance to throw his mitt at the ball.

See above. Makes sense.

Ump 24, You have just designated yourself as a completely irrelevant as a replier!

I'm so sorry Supreme Chancellor of the Universe. What ever will I do now that you feel this way? :rolleyes:

shickenbottom
07-15-2010, 09:44 PM
Wasn't in the sand....was in bed, literally.

Still. You = right. Me = wrong. Maybe if I had cared to crawl out and actually look this up first...


Thanks for submitting the err of your ways, and eating crow. It's tasty, kinda like frog legs.

VTponyump
07-15-2010, 10:01 PM
Here's Jeff Nelson calling detached equipment last year against Tampa Bay...got Maddon the hook, also.

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=5544293

britinmuc
07-15-2010, 10:40 PM
Here's Jeff Nelson calling detached equipment last year against Tampa Bay...got Maddon the hook, also.

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=5544293

had to watch the replay before i even saw it...

jtn93
07-17-2010, 05:20 AM
had to watch the replay before i even saw it...

thats a catchers balk i think, he only awarded one base

yawetag
07-17-2010, 06:21 AM
thats a catchers balk i think, he only awarded one base
A what?

heyblue26
07-17-2010, 06:25 AM
No catchers balked called. It was Detached equipment call on the catcher. Catcher trying to pick up the ball with his face mask. Jeff Nelson got it right.

dash_riprock
07-17-2010, 12:05 PM
No catchers balked called. It was Detached equipment call on the catcher. Catcher trying to pick up the ball with his face mask. Jeff Nelson got it right.

No doubt Jeff's call was correct, but jeez...

I've never had a situation like that and I hope I never do. I believe I would try and slither out of calling it unless I had to (meaning, if the O noticed it). Just being honest. I am fully cognizant of my duty to enforce the rules fairly and impartially, in support of which I have pledged to each of my fellow umpires, my Life, my Fortune and my sacred Honor.

bobjenkins
07-17-2010, 01:31 PM
No doubt Jeff's call was correct, but jeez...

I've never had a situation like that and I hope I never do. I believe I would try and slither out of calling it unless I had to (meaning, if the O noticed it). Just being honest. I am fully cognizant of my duty to enforce the rules fairly and impartially, in support of which I have pledged to each of my fellow umpires, my Life, my Fortune and my sacred Honor.

Without seeing the specific play, I agree.

If the ball is spinning in the dirt, and no runners are attempting to advance, and F2 reaches for the ball with his mask, I think the correct call is "time." ;)

dash_riprock
07-17-2010, 01:58 PM
What if the ball had stopped? I seem to recall somewhere that a pitch ends when, among other things, it comes to rest. If it is no longer a pitched ball, does the penalty no longer apply? After all, if it has stopped, there is no advantage (and perhaps a disadvantage) to using detached equipment.

VTponyump
07-17-2010, 02:02 PM
When I first this this clip last season when it happened, I thought that was a big time call...and still do. The ball was still rolling away from the catcher, and he gained an advantage by stopping it with the mask, preventing the runners from advancing.

It also points out the difference between the MLB guys and the rest of us, or at least me. Nelson was all over that the moment it happened. I would think "that didn't look right", and then would be double clicking inside my head trying to bring up what it was and what to do about it. Nelson is a terrific umpire, and a great story in coming back strong after a life threatening medical issue.

Catcher's Balk? On this video? YGBSM. It was a one base award because that is what the pro manual calls for for detached equipment used on a pitched or thrown ball; the 3 base award is at the time of the infraction for a batted ball.

heyblue26
07-17-2010, 02:17 PM
When I first this this clip last season when it happened, I thought that was a big time call...and still do. The ball was still rolling away from the catcher, and he gained an advantage by stopping it with the mask, preventing the runners from advancing.

It also points out the difference between the MLB guys and the rest of us, or at least me. Nelson was all over that the moment it happened. I would think "that didn't look right", and then would be double clicking inside my head trying to bring up what it was and what to do about it. Nelson is a terrific umpire, and a great story in coming back strong after a life threatening medical issue.

Catcher's Balk? On this video? YGBSM. It was a one base award because that is what the pro manual calls for for detached equipment used on a pitched or thrown ball; the 3 base award is at the time of the infraction for a batted ball.


Very well said and your point of view is accepted.

24sdad
07-17-2010, 02:50 PM
It was a one base award because that is what the pro manual calls for for detached equipment used on a pitched or thrown ball; the 3 base award is at the time of the infraction for a batted ball.
I believe "pitched" ball is one base, "thrown" ball is two bases. ;)

7.05 (d) - Two bases, if a fielder deliberately touches a thrown ball with his cap, mask or any part of his uniform detached from its proper place on his person. The ball is in play;

7.05 (j) - One base, if a fielder deliberately touches a pitched ball with his cap, mask or any part of his uniform detached from its proper place on his person. The ball is in play, and the award is made from the position of the runner at the time the ball was touched.

VTponyump
07-17-2010, 03:38 PM
Right you are....Like I said, sometimes I double click, and that time it froze up and needed to be rebooted.

Richard_Siegel
07-17-2010, 04:58 PM
thats a catchers balk i think, he only awarded one base

The award was one base for DE one a pitched ball.

catoblue
07-21-2010, 06:14 PM
From the PBUC Bluebook

6.9 DETACHED EQUIPMENT TOUCHING PITCHED OR BATTED BALL
Any defensive player deliberately touching a pitched ball with detached equipment (such as a catcher's mask, cap, etc.) will entitle all runners to advance one base from the time the ball was touched without liability to be put out. The ball is in play, and runners may advance beyond the awarded base at their own risk.
Any defensive player deliberately touching a batted ball over fair territory with detached equipment will entitle all runners - including the batter-runner -to advance three bases from the time the ball was touched without liability to be put out. The ball is in play, and runners may advance beyond the awarded base at their own risk.
Any defensive player deliberately touching a batted ball over foul territory that, in the umpire's judgment, has an opportunity to become a fair ball with detached equipment will entitle all runners - including the batter-runner - to advance three bases from the time the ball was touched without liability to be put out. The ball is in play, and runners may advance beyond the awarded base at their own risk.
If a defensive player deliberately touches a batted ball over foul territory that, in the umpire's judgment, clearly has no opportunity to become a fair ball, the umpire shall rule a foul ball. (See Official Baseball Rule 7.05(c).)

Saw this last night Yankees v Angels. Posada was awarded 1 base when Angels F2 used his mask to corral a ball in the dirt.

catoblue
07-21-2010, 06:21 PM
thats a catchers balk i think, he only awarded one base

You've been listening to Tim McCarver and Joe Buck again, haven't you?
A word of advise for any umpire that wants to know the rules... DO NOT LISTEN TO THE TV GUYS!!!! Very few of them know or understand the rules.

It's detached equipment on a passed ball = 1 base award to the runners.

renegadewolf
08-09-2010, 04:11 AM
You've been listening to Tim McCarver and Joe Buck again, haven't you?
A word of advise for any umpire that wants to know the rules... DO NOT LISTEN TO THE TV GUYS!!!! Very few of them know or understand the rules.


This is why when i watch a game i generally turn the volume off.... Otherwise I get enraged at the general lack of understanding the basic rules of baseball that these casters have, i just want to go out, but some rule books and send them to these guys.