PDA

View Full Version : deciding to early


mike_l
07-13-2010, 09:39 AM
Hi,

i have a hard time calling the low and the high pitches. i feel like i judge about the location to early...
when i think the ball crosses the plate, it might be 5-8 feet in front of the hitter in reality.
any advices to get that problem fixed?

thanks
Mike

iamdabobo
07-13-2010, 10:25 AM
when i think the ball crosses the plate, it might be 5-8 feet in front of the hitter in reality.
any advices to get that problem fixed?

:shock::shock:

5-8 FEET?

Cataract surgery?


What position are you using? If you're really far back in Gerry Davis I could see this, but if you're in slot/scissors, you're practically on top of the plate, and I would REALLY worry about your eyesight.

What age levels are you doing? I know the younger ages can be tough with this because there's a lot of arc on the pitches.

MrUmpireSir
07-13-2010, 11:30 AM
You must see the pitch all the way into the catcher's mitt. Based on where he catches it will allow you to judge where it actually crossed the plate. Take your time, see the pitch, call the pitch.

Paic42
07-13-2010, 12:39 PM
Pause,read,react

Dano
07-13-2010, 01:34 PM
If you are the BU when working with me behind the dish you will see me constantly "tapping" three fingers of my right hand on my right thigh.

It is advice that Richard and many others gave to me when I was having the same issue.

Here is the advice they gave me:

1. SEE IT

2. HEAR IT

3. CALL IT


By waiting until you HEAR the pitch strike something (ground, mitt, bat, batter, or anything else in between) you will then have the proper timing.

I have had those pitches that are coming in just at the right trajectory and going to be a strike going to be a strike going to be a strike ONLY to have it die like a shot quail at the last second.


SEE THE PITCH all the way in

HEAR THE PITCH strike an object

THEN CALL IT

jtn93
07-13-2010, 03:06 PM
its nothing till you call it

zam989s
07-13-2010, 05:23 PM
Pause,read,react

For calling balls/strikes? New one on me. I know this applies on the bases, but not so much behind the dish.

CoachJM
07-13-2010, 05:50 PM
:shock::shock:

5-8 FEET?

Cataract surgery?


What position are you using? If you're really far back in Gerry Davis I could see this, but if you're in slot/scissors, you're practically on top of the plate, and I would REALLY worry about your eyesight.

What age levels are you doing? I know the younger ages can be tough with this because there's a lot of arc on the pitches.

iamdabobo,

This issue has nothing to do with eyesight - it's all about timing.

He should simply traack the pitch with his eyes from the pitcher's hand until the pitch reaches the catcher before he even starts deciding whether the pitch is a ball or a strike.

Pause,read,react

Paic,

He's having trouble calling a pitch, not deciding whether or not to "go out" on a ball to the outfield.

JM

KenGibes
07-13-2010, 06:07 PM
For me, good timing goes a long way in preventing an umpire from anticipating a call.

With new umpires, one of the hardest things they have to overcome is bad timing, and many of their blown calls happen because they anticipated the outcome of the play before it completed.

I have several photographs that I took (for evidence) that shows a newbie umpire's hand coming up to call a runner out at 1B BEFORE the ball hits the mitt.

The same pertains to calling balls and strikes. You have to have a good stance, lock in, follow the ball with your eyes, see the pitch all the way into the catcher's mitt, and THEN decide if it's a ball or a strike.

There are a lot of threads on this board that talk about these points in detail. It would be worth your while to look them up.

Paic42
07-13-2010, 06:25 PM
Maybe I should change it to slow down your timing then. If your having trouble with the knee pitch you can try moving a step closer. That has worked for me

Richard_Siegel
07-13-2010, 06:50 PM
New umpires all come with a misconception that they must deliver a decision, safe/out, or ball/strike as fast as possible or they fear they will look indecisive. This is completely wrong. You look far more decisive when you wait for the play to end and then deliver one right call. If you have ever reversed and out call because the ball was dropped after you called "out." Or you called a pitch and knew you got it wrong as soon as the word ball or strike left your mouth. Then you are rushing your calls and not letting the play end.

Whether the "play" is a runner sliding to a base, or a pitch coming to the batter, you must recognize when the play "ends" and only then make your decsion and the call.

Would you rather make a quick call that is wrong, or a slow one that right? Often the outcome you expect can be completely reversed in the last microsecond before the play ends. So why not wait the extra moment and get it right?

A tag ends when the runner stops moving and the fielder is holding the ball, or the ball is on the ground.

A pitch ends when you see the ball pass HP and then hear the ball touch something, i.e. the catcher, the ground, or you.

dash_riprock
07-13-2010, 07:53 PM
Track the pitch to the mitt.

Watch what the mitt does.

Consider the evidence.

Decide strike or ball.

Call it.

zam989s
07-14-2010, 03:30 AM
If the OP can get in on a bullpen/cage session with a pitcher and catcher, he could try this....

Get in your stance and lock in. Close your eyes before the pitcher throws the pitch. Don't even start to open your eyes until you hear it hit the catcher's mitt. After it hits the mitt, open your eyes and call the pitch. (When I was first taught to do this, I was told to call everything a strike just for training's sake) This will help with timing. The next step is putting tracking together with timing and actually getting the calls right.

heyblue26
07-14-2010, 09:06 AM
Its called timing. As it has been said track it from the pitcher all the way to the catchers mitt. Did it pass thru the strike zone? Watch the ball dont plink or close your eyes. Track it. Ball or strike? call It.

BrianC14
07-14-2010, 03:42 PM
If the OP can get in on a bullpen/cage session with a pitcher and catcher, he could try this....

Get in your stance and lock in. Close your eyes before the pitcher throws the pitch. Don't even start to open your eyes until you hear it hit the catcher's mitt. After it hits the mitt, open your eyes and call the pitch. (When I was first taught to do this, I was told to call everything a strike just for training's sake) This will help with timing. The next step is putting tracking together with timing and actually getting the calls right.

YGTBSM

This is quite possibly, the worst advice I have ever seen given on an umpire's forum.
Great googley-moogley.
How in the :evil::evil::evil::evil: is closing your eyes going to help with the proper tracking of a pitch?
I'll answer the question, since it's so obvious: IT WON'T.

Read HeyBlue26's reply, just above. Read it again. OK, now read it once more. Then read it three more times.

Close your eyes. Good grief. How utterly ridiculous. :rolleyes:

Tim_C
07-14-2010, 04:33 PM
Brian:

Please step away from the bar, take a breath and listen to what I think the poster was talking about.

I think the poster had moved on from tracking and was simply talking about TIMING.

When we are working umpires in cages with pitching machines and IF it is simply a matter of quick timing we often have the umpire take two or three pitches EXACTLY as noted . . . with their eyes closed.

This helps them understand, without pitch pressure, what proper timing is based on.

I understand eveything in your post but I really think he was talking ONLY about timing.

Closed eyes training is valuable in my opinion.

T

zam989s
07-14-2010, 04:59 PM
Brian:

Please step away from the bar, take a breath and listen to what I think the poster was talking about.

I think the poster had moved on from tracking and was simply talking about TIMING.

When we are working umpires in cages with pitching machines and IF it is simply a matter of quick timing we often have the umpire take two or three pitches EXACTLY as noted . . . with their eyes closed.

This helps them understand, without pitch pressure, what proper timing is based on.

I understand eveything in your post but I really think he was talking ONLY about timing.

Closed eyes training is valuable in my opinion.

T

This is exactly what I'm talking about and I've seen it done at clinics with guys who were struggling with timing and calling the pitch as it hit the catcher's mitt. It has nothing to do with tracking. As I said, after this exercise is done, open your eyes and track pitches normally and it should help improve your timing.

tcarilli
07-14-2010, 05:23 PM
Close your eyes before the pitcher throws the pitch. Don't even start to open your eyes until you hear it hit the catcher's mitt.

How will closing his eyes help him get more pitches correct? Timing is not about time! It is about proper use of eyes. If you don't track pitches, you will have a very difficult time getting them right. Watch the pitch WITH your EYES WHILE they are OPEN until it stops moving. Then, make your decision. "Timing" will take care of itself.

tcarilli
07-14-2010, 05:27 PM
with their eyes closed.

This helps them understand, without pitch pressure, what proper timing is based on.

I understand eveything in your post but I really think he was talking ONLY about timing.

Closed eyes training is valuable in my opinion.

T

No, Tim it does not. Timing is not about time...period. It is physiologically impossible to have bad timing if you track the pitch all the way until it stops moving. So bad timing comes purely from improper use of eyes, eg, tunnel vision (eyes not moving).

So, Tim, I disagree vehemently that closing one's eyes helps anyone understand what proper timing is based on. Since timing is proper use of eyes, not using them (eyes) can not teach what timing is based on.

Tony

tcarilli
07-14-2010, 05:35 PM
...I've seen it done at clinics with guys who were struggling with timing and calling the pitch as it hit the catcher's mitt. It has nothing to do with tracking.

Yes, it does. In fact it has everything to do with timing. Timing is about trying to get pitches right, not about some artificial time frame between when the pitch ends and when the PU signals his decision.

Closing one's eyes will not help one get more pitches correct, period. Timing is the outward manifestation of proper use of eyes, ie, it is what we can see and hear from a position where we can't see the PU's eyes tracking pitches. That is, if the PU is tracking there will be a delay (some time) between the end of the pitch and the signaling of the decision.

And BTW pause, read, react is the same mechanism at work on the bases.

Learn to track. Do not learn to create artificial timing mechanisms. Learning the track is hard work though, but it pays off in the end.

Tony

Richard_Siegel
07-14-2010, 06:11 PM
YGTBSM

This is quite possibly, the worst advice I have ever seen given on an umpire's forum.
Great googley-moogley.
How in the :evil::evil::evil::evil: is closing your eyes going to help with the proper tracking of a pitch?
I'll answer the question, since it's so obvious: IT WON'T.

Read HeyBlue26's reply, just above. Read it again. OK, now read it once more. Then read it three more times.

Close your eyes. Good grief. How utterly ridiculous. :rolleyes:

The closed eyes drill was used to teach me proper timing by Gerry Davis himself at one of his clinics in 1998. My timing was too fast and even though he tried to get me to understand that one must wait for the pitch to be caught to make your decision I could not separate what I was seeing from what I was hearing. I was making up my mind when the ball was still in flight. Gerry had me take several pitches with my eyes closed and call stikes as I heard the ball caught. Then I tried it again with eyes open and my life behind the plate changed right then and there. I have rarely felt I missed a pitch since that day. You have to take the visual cues out of the picture for a moment to get the person to focus on the audible cues. It worked very well for me. I have used the technique in training that I have done for others as well.

The phrase that timing is proper use of the eyes comes from Gerry Davis too. He was the first clinician I heard use that phase. This drill teaches proper timing in that you learn when NOT to make the call until you see the pitch has been caught. Listening for the pop helps trigger that method.

zam989s
07-14-2010, 06:44 PM
How will closing his eyes help him get more pitches correct? Timing is not about time! It is about proper use of eyes. If you don't track pitches, you will have a very difficult time getting them right. Watch the pitch WITH your EYES WHILE they are OPEN until it stops moving. Then, make your decision. "Timing" will take care of itself.

You can still track pitches and have bad timing, i.e. calling the pitch too quickly. While I feel like my timing has improved immensely, I still occasionally will track a pitch but stand up too quickly and call it. Timing may take care of itself for some of us, but that is not true for everyone.


Closing one's eyes will not help one get more pitches correct, period. Timing is the outward manifestation of proper use of eyes, ie, it is what we can see and hear from a position where we can't see the PU's eyes tracking pitches. That is, if the PU is tracking there will be a delay (some time) between the end of the pitch and the signaling of the decision.


This is simply a drill though, and a relatively short one at that, so you're not trying to get pitches correct. I'm not saying that you should spend 2 hours during a live game/scrimmage doing this. Maybe 15-20 pitches in a bullpen or cage session.

tcarilli
07-14-2010, 07:48 PM
You can still track pitches and have bad timing...

No you can't. It is physiologically impossible to track pitches properly and have bad timing. Think about it.

BrianC14
07-14-2010, 07:58 PM
Brian:

Please step away from the bar, take a breath and listen to what I think the poster was talking about.

I think the poster had moved on from tracking and was simply talking about TIMING.

When we are working umpires in cages with pitching machines and IF it is simply a matter of quick timing we often have the umpire take two or three pitches EXACTLY as noted . . . with their eyes closed.

This helps them understand, without pitch pressure, what proper timing is based on.

I understand eveything in your post but I really think he was talking ONLY about timing.

Closed eyes training is valuable in my opinion.

T

What a crock.

This is nothing more than timing gimmick. You may as well leave your eyes open and count "1, 2, 3..." and then call the pitch - it has the same effect.

Proper TIMING comes from proper use of the eyes: tracking the ball all the way to the mitt.

Closing your eyes? WTF, Chuck? It's worse than useless, because it's a waste of time.

BrianC14
07-14-2010, 07:59 PM
How will closing his eyes help him get more pitches correct? Timing is not about time! It is about proper use of eyes. If you don't track pitches, you will have a very difficult time getting them right. Watch the pitch WITH your EYES WHILE they are OPEN until it stops moving. Then, make your decision. "Timing" will take care of itself.

+ 1,000.

BrianC14
07-14-2010, 08:01 PM
You can still track pitches and have bad timing, i.e. calling the pitch too quickly. While I feel like my timing has improved immensely, I still occasionally will track a pitch but stand up too quickly and call it. Timing may take care of itself for some of us, but that is not true for everyone.


That's because you're not tracking it properly - by using your eyes and following the ball all the way to the mitt. If you were doing that on every pitch, you wouldn't be standing up too soon.

BrianC14
07-14-2010, 08:03 PM
The closed eyes drill was used to teach me proper timing by Gerry Davis himself at one of his clinics in 1998. My timing was too fast and even though he tried to get me to understand that one must wait for the pitch to be caught to make your decision I could not separate what I was seeing from what I was hearing. I was making up my mind when the ball was still in flight. Gerry had me take several pitches with my eyes closed and call stikes as I heard the ball caught. Then I tried it again with eyes open and my life behind the plate changed right then and there. I have rarely felt I missed a pitch since that day. You have to take the visual cues out of the picture for a moment to get the person to focus on the audible cues. It worked very well for me. I have used the technique in training that I have done for others as well.

The phrase that timing is proper use of the eyes comes from Gerry Davis too. He was the first clinician I heard use that phase. This drill teaches proper timing in that you learn when NOT to make the call until you see the pitch has been caught. Listening for the pop helps trigger that method.


Bull.

I could be deaf and still have good timing on pitches.

Richard_Siegel
07-14-2010, 08:26 PM
Bull.

I could be deaf and still have good timing on pitches.

That is completely true.

The eyes closed drill I had was about 4 pitches, done once, in 1998? I have never needed to do it again. It allowed me to separate the sound from the sight of the pitch, which helped me improve.

Why do you have your jock in a wad over the fact that a small drill that works for some folks is a such a bad idea? If you think it's bull, keep your eyes open and look at another thread.

BTW, you are not allowed to use any number higher than "+1" when supporting a post. +1 implies that "I am one more person who agrees with this idea." Any value higher than +1 suggests you are more then one person, which is impossible. In our society of one-man-one-vote it is inappropiate to use +1000.

yawetag
07-14-2010, 09:52 PM
In our society of one-man-one-vote it is inappropiate to use +1000.
You aren't very familiar with the corruption surrounding United States elections, are you? :D

Richard_Siegel
07-15-2010, 12:41 AM
You aren't very familiar with the corruption surrounding United States elections, are you? :D

Perhaps that is true, but there will no corruption on an umpire's website.

heyblue26
07-15-2010, 01:56 AM
Perhaps that is true, but there will no corruption on an umpire's website.

Richard You are correct so I say +1

zam989s
07-15-2010, 04:23 AM
That is completely true.

The eyes closed drill I had was about 4 pitches, done once, in 1998? I have never needed to do it again. It allowed me to separate the sound from the sight of the pitch, which helped me improve.

Why do you have your jock in a wad over the fact that a small drill that works for some folks is a such a bad idea? If you think it's bull, keep your eyes open and look at another thread.

BTW, you are not allowed to use any number higher than "+1" when supporting a post. +1 implies that "I am one more person who agrees with this idea." Any value higher than +1 suggests you are more then one person, which is impossible. In our society of one-man-one-vote it is inappropiate to use +1000.

+1 (Just one, not anything more)

If this won't work for you, then don't do it. I've just seen college umpires at clinics and during cage sessions use it a couple times with guys that were having trouble, and it did help me the time I did it.

It's not like I'm advocating anyone walk on the field in high heels and a mini skirt.

heyblue26
07-15-2010, 07:04 AM
I surely hope not high heels and a mini skirt? I believe richard from what he says "try it " anything can help. That should be something to see.

Tim_C
07-15-2010, 01:09 PM
Brian/Tony:

I respect you guys a ton.

We all learn things everywhere we go.

I was taught the "closed eyes training" by Ted Barrett, Bill Miller, Dale Scott and Mike Winters at a Golden State Umpire clinic in Portland.

It is not a situation of using some silly guide (once printed on these pages was the advice to chew your gum twice before making the call) but a way to teach what proper timing "feels" like.

Let me make this more precise:

When we have a guy that has quick timing we teach all the tracking and associated activities.

We use the closed eyes to ILLUSTRATE what it is like to HEAR the action of the pitch.

We can always agree to disagree -- I just no longer have the energy to try to explain somethings to people who have no intent of EVER accepting the outcome.

YMMV

T

Pete_Booth
07-15-2010, 01:27 PM
Hi,

I have a hard time calling the low and the high pitches. i feel like i judge about the location to early...
when i think the ball crosses the plate, it might be 5-8 feet in front of the hitter in reality.
any advices to get that problem fixed?

thanks
Mike

If you have a chance attend one of the clinics where you are in a cage and can get some good advice on how to position yourself and on timing issues.

As with most things in life what works for someone else might not necessarily work for you.

It's like when we played the game. There are some players ala Roberto Clemente that I thought could never hit the outside pitch (because of where he stood) yet he is a hall of famer. There are many others.

The point is: try some things that were expressed here and see if they work for you.

Also as Richard points out there is no "time limit" on when to make calls. We cannot take "all day" but the point is do not call the play too quickly.

Also, what age group do you umpire?

RE: If you are umpiring players who do not shave, for the most part you are NOT behind a skilled F2 and it is harder to "track the pitches" with an F2 that is not very good himself.

There is nothing like umpiring behind a skilled F2. If makes you life easier behind the plate.

In summary: Attend a clinic and tell the instructores what you are having problems with. Listen to their advice and "try it you might like it".

Once you learn then do as many games as you can so you can apply this new knowledge with actual practice. There is nothing like experience.

Good luck

Pete Booth

tcarilli
07-15-2010, 02:03 PM
Brian/Tony:
We can always agree to disagree -- I just no longer have the energy to try to explain somethings to people who have no intent of EVER accepting the outcome.
YMMV
T

T,

I have been thinking about it, I understand why you might use such a technique, but I don't agree with it. I have heard and seen this technique before, I don't think it has positive long term impact on the ability to track. I think the proper way to teach a person to use his eyes, is to have him use his eyes. As you know, it really is hard work and there are not shortcuts.

So, I agree to disagree. I spend a lot of my life teaching, so I tend not to be intransigent when it comes to teaching techniques. I can't afford to be.

Tony

britinmuc
07-15-2010, 02:12 PM
i keep thinking of the leslie nielsen scene where he is the pu.

the first one he is so nervous he doesnt call until everyon looks at him and then says.."strike?"

the second is called as the ball is still hovering above the plate

and the third he lets rip...

i think a lot of the tracking and timing is experience.
the more you do it the more your relaxed and the more you enjoy it.

i remember the first couple of games and was thinking about making a bad call and would make me a bit nervous.

relax, take in as much info as possible.
first look at the batter - how is his position and visualise his zone.
i dont usually adopt my set position until i see the pitchers arm go back, so by the time the ball is in motion i'm set, not moving and can see the whole movement.
don't set to early, never set to late. try and watch the whole trajectory from pitchers hand to catchers mitt.

decide on what you saw.

at this point i take one breath and make my call (verbal) whilst set.
then stand and signal if necessary.

take one step back and relax.

my advice - just relax, have fun. dont try and improve too much in one go. pick one thing and try on that. try and do the rounds with an experienced ump. some of the advice you get is gold

BrianC14
07-15-2010, 03:39 PM
T,

I have been thinking about it, I understand why you might use such a technique, but I don't agree with it. I have heard and seen this technique before, I don't think it has positive long term impact on the ability to track. I think the proper way to teach a person to use his eyes, is to have him use his eyes. As you know, it really is hard work and there are not shortcuts.

So, I agree to disagree. I spend a lot of my life teaching, so I tend not to be intransigent when it comes to teaching techniques. I can't afford to be.

Tony

Same here. Well said, Tony.

BrianC14
07-15-2010, 03:40 PM
You aren't very familiar with the corruption surrounding United States elections, are you? :D

I was thinking Chicago....

;)

Richard_Siegel
07-15-2010, 04:04 PM
...It's not like I'm advocating anyone walk on the field in high heels and a mini skirt.

Two years ago I saw Jennie Finch do exactly that. It was grand.

I was at the opening of a local baseball/softball complex that uses her name and the name of Jack Cust, Jr. "Jennie Finch Softball Academy Jack Cust Baseball Academy." Everyone was happy see Jennie.