PDA

View Full Version : Inteference on DB at second, whose call?


postman
04-10-2010, 06:42 AM
Clarify for me. Differing opinion between two of us. HS Fed rules. 2 man system.

runner at 1. grounder to ss turning DP. runner goes in standing up and disrupts play. Obvious interference and BR out as well. No concern/dispute there. Question is who responsible for the call, BU or PU?

Would it matter if runner slide outside the bag to take out the defensive player attempting to turn two?

Thanks

dash_riprock
04-10-2010, 12:55 PM
Clarify for me. Differing opinion between two of us. HS Fed rules. 2 man system.

runner at 1. grounder to ss turning DP. runner goes in standing up and disrupts play. Obvious interference and BR out as well. No concern/dispute there. Question is who responsible for the call, BU or PU?

Would it matter if runner slide outside the bag to take out the defensive player attempting to turn two?

Thanks

Either ump can call it. PU stays with the play at 2nd and BU follows the throw to 1st. If the violation occurs before the relay to 1st, BU will usually take it because there is no longer a reason for him to turn with the throw.

semper_fi_72
04-10-2010, 03:30 PM
Either ump can call it. PU stays with the play at 2nd and BU follows the throw to 1st. If the violation occurs before the relay to 1st, BU will usually take it because there is no longer a reason for him to turn with the throw.

Dash is 110% correct.

bigblu2u2
04-15-2010, 05:31 AM
We changed our mechanic recently to follow pbuc. Whenever there is a runner on 1st or 1st and 3rd, plate guy goes to 3rd. Either umpire can make the call. Our old mechanic had the plate guy getting out at least to the right side of the mound for the interference call at 2nd, but now we send him to the library.

chuktownblue
04-15-2010, 06:29 AM
Had this same discussion with partner tonight after game, and felt I got thrown under the bus. I'm BU. FED game.

R1, 1 out, grounder to F6, throw to F4, who makes the catch. I see his foot touch the bag, switched my view to the ball and began turn to 1B. Just before he releases the ball, R1 slides in and there's traditional slide and take-out.

For the record, R1 was just called safe on back-end of DP, and DC and I had calm, brief discussion. So now he comes out, complaining about the take-out. I said I saw nothing illegal, but as a courtesy, I went to my partner and asked if R1 was past the bag. He said yes. I was stunned. I asked again. He repeated his answer. I banged out BR (for 3rd out in tied game in top 7th), briefly explained it to the coach, and a very good game turned rather ugly.

Postgame: Telling a far more veteran official he has to call that immediately led to him telling me he was waiting for my call. Then telling me it's only his call if I've already turned to follow a throw. Then telling me I have to see the entire play better and make that call.

In hindsight, I can't remember if F4 had left foot on the bag and right foot to left field side, or right foot on bag stepping towards first. Instead of my question being "Was R1 past the bag?" it should have been "Was the contact past the bag?" but a 30 year official should know what I was asking. But, for sake of argument, if R1 makes contact on the bag, then slides past the bag, legal, correct? I'd just hate to think I got thrown under, and then booted it!

Comments?

Bluefish
04-15-2010, 02:02 PM
It sounds like you took the hit for the PU. It should have been his call about the Illegal force slide. You said you had tunred to follow the play to first as you should. There is no way I am going to change my call based on PU comments. If he saw intereference I am going to let him make that call.

HTBT but generally if contact is made on the other side of the bag it is easy call. If contact is made when fielder is right on bag and the runner slides past bag you can also call it because IMO if it was a legal slide between the bases, the runner probably wont end up taking out the fielder on the bag.

bobjenkins
04-15-2010, 02:31 PM
HTBT but generally if contact is made on the other side of the bag it is easy call. If contact is made when fielder is right on bag and the runner slides past bag you can also call it

No, you can't. Contact on or in front of the base is legal, even if the runner then slides past the base.

Sliding past the base and THEN making contact is what's illegal.

BrianC14
04-15-2010, 02:46 PM
No, you can't. Contact on or in front of the base is legal, even if the runner then slides past the base.

Sliding past the base and THEN making contact is what's illegal.


Ding, ding! I agree with Bob. The rule is designed to protect the fielder, but there are areas where he is not protected.

yzas
04-15-2010, 02:48 PM
... but as a courtesy, I went to my partner and asked if R1 was past the bag. He said yes. I was stunned. I asked again. He repeated his answer. I banged out BR (for 3rd out in tied game in top 7th), briefly explained it to the coach, and a very good game turned rather ugly.

Would a better question to partner have been "Do you have interference?"

I realize that if he did, he should have called it already but this would at least force him to make (and own) the call.

Or, would that be considered throwing HIM under the bus?

Would it have been best to leave it at "I don't have interference here coach, I was taking the ball to first." and let the coach take it up with PU if he wants to?

BrianC14
04-15-2010, 02:58 PM
Would a better question to partner have been "Do you have interference?"

I realize that if he did, he should have called it already but this would at least force him to make (and own) the call.

Or, would that be considered throwing HIM under the bus?

Would it have been best to leave it at "I don't have interference here coach, I was taking the ball to first." and let the coach take it up with PU if he wants to?

This illustrates an important point about umpiring.

First, let me just say that I understand that the UIC should come out and watch for INT on the front end of the double play.
However, I find that it's unnecessary. There's no reason that the BU shouldn't be able to see INT occur on this play. It's rarely a subtle thing... contact is allowed, provided the slide is legal (BU can see this) and if the area of contact is on the 1B side of the bag or on the bag. The BU should never turn away until the throw is made, so in most cases, the play is over. If contact is made AFTER the throw, you really don't have a case for INT (MC, maybe, but not INT).

Now, all that said, if the UIC has some information, then the umpires should get together and sort this out. It provides a better framework for (at the least) the appearance that the umpires are working together, rather than against each other.

That's my $0.02 on it.

chuktownblue
04-15-2010, 03:20 PM
This illustrates an important point about umpiring.

First, let me just say that I understand that the UIC should come out and watch for INT on the front end of the double play.
However, I find that it's unnecessary. There's no reason that the BU shouldn't be able to see INT occur on this play. It's rarely a subtle thing... contact is allowed, provided the slide is legal (BU can see this) and if the area of contact is on the 1B side of the bag or on the bag. The BU should never turn away until the throw is made, so in most cases, the play is over. If contact is made AFTER the throw, you really don't have a case for INT (MC, maybe, but not INT).

Now, all that said, if the UIC has some information, then the umpires should get together and sort this out. It provides a better framework for (at the least) the appearance that the umpires are working together, rather than against each other.

That's my $0.02 on it.

I did make my call. At that moment, I felt the play was legal. I assumed UIC saw same thing since he didn't call anything. Very reasonable coach, and when I have one of those, and he respectfully asks to check with my partner (when my partner has some responsibility on the play), I usually will. I just wasn't expecting the answer I got. Quite possible he saw something I didn't. It happens all the time with a pulled foot, swipe, check swing. And when you check with him, you listen to him. I don't ask, then ignore what he has to say. That's driving the bus.

Thanks for the input guys. I probably should have seen it. I saw a slide, and F4 go down. I couldn't say I saw illegal contact. Maybe it was legal, and partner just saw R1 going past the bag. I'll never know unless some video surfaces....

BrianC14
04-15-2010, 03:25 PM
I did make my call. At that moment, I felt the play was legal. I assumed UIC saw same thing since he didn't call anything. Very reasonable coach, and when I have one of those, and he respectfully asks to check with my partner (when my partner has some responsibility on the play), I usually will. I just wasn't expecting the answer I got. Quite possible he saw something I didn't. It happens all the time with a pulled foot, swipe, check swing. And when you check with him, you listen to him. I don't ask, then ignore what he has to say. That's driving the bus.

Thanks for the input guys. I probably should have seen it. I saw a slide, and F4 go down. I couldn't say I saw illegal contact. Maybe it was legal, and partner just saw R1 going past the bag. I'll never know unless some video surfaces....

This month's Referee magazine has an excellent article by Jon Bible entited "Get Help!".
One of the bits of wisdom he imparts is that an umpire shouldn't go for help just to appease an upset coach.
It's all a learning experience - each game.
Part of the conversation with your partner would have been for him to explain why and where he saw contact occur - that could help clarify things.
As a general rule, this is still the base umpire's call - and there's no partner who should step in and change the call there. The job of the UIC here is to assist his partner with information. It's up to the calling umpire to decide if that information warrants changing the call.

Dean
04-15-2010, 04:39 PM
I had an interference call this last Sunday as well.
JuCo I am BU.
The shortstop steps on and through the bag plants a foot, 2 feet on foul side of the bag. R1 slide straight into the bag – except he stuck his left leg out and took out F6’s plant leg on his step.
Easy call, stayed with the ball the entire time and no throw to 1st was made.

Funny thing was that Saturday for a HS Spring League game (Iowa has Summer HS Baseball) I had Interference as well but the kid did kind of a slide/flying tackle on the 2nd baseman. (Kind of glad I had this before Sunday, let me review the procedure, mechanics etc...)

alex7
04-16-2010, 02:32 AM
Interference at 2nd is absolutely the PU's call.

SOMETIMES as the BU we can see the INT early enough to call it IF the PU doesn't, but if we start thinking that it's our call to make, you'll be on these boards lamenting about the time you anticipated an INT at 2nd base due to how the kid was sliding, then somehow nothing developed how you thought it would, AND you missed the play at 1st because your focus was so geared towards that INT call.

siramazin_
04-16-2010, 10:23 PM
Interference at 2nd is absolutely the PU's call.

SOMETIMES as the BU we can see the INT early enough to call it IF the PU doesn't, but if we start thinking that it's our call to make, you'll be on these boards lamenting about the time you anticipated an INT at 2nd base due to how the kid was sliding, then somehow nothing developed how you thought it would, AND you missed the play at 1st because your focus was so geared towards that INT call.


Yup---What he said!!!