Mechanic and philosophy/pregame on tag up plays

[ump5150]

Continue to struggle with a new partner assigned to me each week. Each game as PU, I do my pre-game specifically covering flyball and tagup situations. And in each of my last three games, have had an issue where BU is watching the catch (or maybe the hot blonde in the stands) instead of the tagup.

In my last game, bottom of 3, 2 outs, R3 attempting to tagup on a short fly down the line in left. After slight bobble by F7, I rule catch, I have both F7 and R3 in line of sight up the line. As I rule the catch, I can see R3 coming down the line, R3 scores. Defense immediately appeals the play saying R3 left early. Legal appeal is made, BU freezes, no call, turns to me for help. I pause, then rule runner out. Chaos ensues, offense goes crazy, eventually resulting in coach ejection.

After rethinking this play over and over, I am trying to identify anything that could be done differently:
1. BU did not see the play, even though he was in perfect position at C, better pre-game needed?
2. Although I called what I saw, was my angle simply not good enough to make a ruling from HP? (an unbiased spectator told me later I kicked it)
3. Perhaps I should have had a conference with BU to discuss what he saw (or didn't) and game situation? Not sure I would have ruled differently, but the mechanic and communication could have been much better.

[dash_riprock]

Continue to struggle with a new partner assigned to me each week. Each game as PU, I do my pre-game specifically covering flyball and tagup situations. And in each of my last three games, have had an issue where BU is watching the catch (or maybe the hot blonde in the stands) instead of the tagup.

In my last game, bottom of 3, 2 outs, R3 attempting to tagup on a short fly down the line in left. After slight bobble by F7, I rule catch, I have both F7 and R3 in line of sight up the line. As I rule the catch, I can see R3 coming down the line, R3 scores. Defense immediately appeals the play saying R3 left early. Legal appeal is made, BU freezes, no call, turns to me for help. I pause, then rule runner out. Chaos ensues, offense goes crazy, eventually resulting in coach ejection.

After rethinking this play over and over, I am trying to identify anything that could be done differently:
1. BU did not see the play, even though he was in perfect position at C, better pre-game needed?
2. Although I called what I saw, was my angle simply not good enough to make a ruling from HP? (an unbiased spectator told me later I kicked it)
3. Perhaps I should have had a conference with BU to discuss what he saw (or didn't) and game situation? Not sure I would have ruled differently, but the mechanic and communication could have been much better.

1. R3 tagging with 2 out? I assume you meant to say there were less than 2 out.

2. In 2-man, all tags at 3rd base are PU's. Maybe instead of turning to you for help, BU was waiting for you to make YOUR call.

[ump5150]

1. Yes, sorry less than 2 out.

2. Yes, I agree that is normal mechanic. This is youth league play, 9U. With newer BUs in the mix, the league assigner wants PU to take all catches, and BU to take all tags, in an effort to keep it simple. Perhaps that is the problem right there. But working with what I am given.....

[BrianC14]

1. Yes, sorry less than 2 out.

2. Yes, I agree that is normal mechanic. This is youth league play, 9U. With newer BUs in the mix, the league assigner wants PU to take all catches, and BU to take all tags, in an effort to keep it simple. Perhaps that is the problem right there. But working with what I am given.....


It's simply confusing.

[JHLeatherwood]

1. Yes, sorry less than 2 out.

2. Yes, I agree that is normal mechanic. This is youth league play, 9U. With newer BUs in the mix, the league assigner wants PU to take all catches, and BU to take all tags, in an effort to keep it simple. Perhaps that is the problem right there. But working with what I am given.....

Another case of a league "simplifying" things that have been hammered out over thousands of games.

PU has tag-ups at 3rd for a reason. If BU is in C and the ball's hit to right field, how in the world is BU going to line up to see the catch/touch AND the R3?

[Ozzy]

Here's how you fix the problem. The new guy belongs at the plate, not the bases! That's where they learn how to umpire..... heh, heh, heh! :rolleyes:

[BrianC14]

Here's how you fix the problem. The new guy belongs at the plate, not the bases! That's where they learn how to umpire..... heh, heh, heh! :rolleyes:

Yeah, that'll fix it.

Meanwhile, two hours later in the top of the 2nd...... 8O

[Pete_Booth]

Yeah, that'll fix it.

Meanwhile, two hours later in the top of the 2nd...... 8O

That's when I EJ myself.

Pete Booth

[Pete_Booth]

2. Yes, I agree that is normal mechanic. This is youth league play, 9U. With newer BUs in the mix, the league assigner wants PU to take all catches, and BU to take all tags, in an effort to keep it simple. Perhaps that is the problem right there. But working with what I am given.....

That's why there should be MANDATORY Clinics for each "new guy" to attend. That way everyone is on the same page.

Most of cringe when we are at the plate and hear "Pete here are our House rules"

Well same is true when you have "house rules" regarding mechanics. The mechanics as they are today are there for a reason meaning to utilize the 2 person system to it's fullest. Mechanics get "tweaked" but the point is there is a standard.

In a nutshell the UIC should run a clinic for everyone at the beginning of the season.

Pete Booth

[MCLEOD36]

If a new partner, I will point to him to say "that is YOUR call". Now again, tags at 3rd, are the UIC. If he still gives you the deer in headlights, you better huddle up fast.....

[yawetag]

Others have helped with the original call, but one thing caught my attention (bolding mine):

In my last game, bottom of 3, 2 outs, R3 attempting to tagup on a short fly down the line in left. After slight bobble by F7, I rule catch, I have both F7 and R3 in line of sight up the line. As I rule the catch, I can see R3 coming down the line, R3 scores. Defense immediately appeals the play saying R3 left early. Legal appeal is made, BU freezes, no call, turns to me for help. I pause, then rule runner out. Chaos ensues, offense goes crazy, eventually resulting in coach ejection.

When did the runner leave the bag:
1. Before the original touch
2. Between the original touch and the catch
3. After the catch

If he left after the original touch and before the catch was made, he didn't leave early.

Also, I've been taught that if you aren't 100% sure he left early, he didn't leave early. It sounds like this may be that case.

[yawetag]

Yeah, that'll fix it.

Meanwhile, two hours later in the top of the 2nd...... 8O

Or, 45 minutes later, you're walking back to the car. I've seen some generous strike zones.

Well same is true when you have "house rules" regarding mechanics. The mechanics as they are today are there for a reason meaning to utilize the 2 person system to it's fullest. Mechanics get "tweaked" but the point is there is a standard.

In a nutshell the UIC should run a clinic for everyone at the beginning of the season.

Pete Booth

Pete, that's the problem with my local youth league, though. The UIC for the league held a training class a few weeks ago.

When going over mechanics: Runners anywhere but 3B, he wants BU in a somewhat-C position (more toward 3B than regular C) with his body facing the pitcher. Runner at 3B, he wants BU in a somewhat-B position (more toward 1B than regular B) with his body facing the pitcher. His rationale: "You're able to watch the pitcher for balks AND see the pick-off at the base, all without moving."

I told my park's UIC that I wasn't doing it. If I get evaluated by the guy, I'll ask him three simple questions:
1. Did I miss any balks due to my positioning?
2. Did I miss any pick-offs due to my positioning?
3. Did I miss any other calls due to my positioning?

If he can answer yes to any of those questions, I'll try his method.

[Ozzy]

Yeah, that'll fix it.

Meanwhile, two hours later in the top of the 2nd...... 8O
Sorry, new guy goes to the plate. Better to blow a few strike calls than screw up calls on the bases.

[BrianC14]

Sorry, new guy goes to the plate. Better to blow a few strike calls than screw up calls on the bases.

Yeah, but a new guy has got to learn it some time... we all had to.

[Richard_Siegel]

Continue to struggle with a new partner assigned to me each week. Each game as PU, I do my pre-game specifically covering flyball and tagup situations. And in each of my last three games, have had an issue where BU is watching the catch (or maybe the hot blonde in the stands) instead of the tagup.

In my last game, bottom of 3, 2 outs, R3 attempting to tagup on a short fly down the line in left. After slight bobble by F7, I rule catch, I have both F7 and R3 in line of sight up the line. As I rule the catch, I can see R3 coming down the line, R3 scores. Defense immediately appeals the play saying R3 left early. Legal appeal is made, BU freezes, no call, turns to me for help. I pause, then rule runner out. Chaos ensues, offense goes crazy, eventually resulting in coach ejection.

After rethinking this play over and over, I am trying to identify anything that could be done differently:
1. BU did not see the play, even though he was in perfect position at C, better pre-game needed?
2. Although I called what I saw, was my angle simply not good enough to make a ruling from HP? (an unbiased spectator told me later I kicked it)
3. Perhaps I should have had a conference with BU to discuss what he saw (or didn't) and game situation? Not sure I would have ruled differently, but the mechanic and communication could have been much better.

The system you are using is bad. It is very tough fo a BU to see a catch i the OF and then swivel quickly enough to rule on R3. That is why the PU has that call everywhere else in the world. The Bu has to line him self up for a tag up at 2B and then look at 1B (where runners rarely tag up). Making him responsible for all three base is insane, while all the PU has to do is clean off the plate?

[kua2011]

Got one, just recofirming legality.

One out, runners on 2B and 3B. Pop up between 1st & 2nd. Runners leave on the hit. Ball is caught. Ball is thrown to second to appeal no tagup. 2B runner is returning to 2B to retouch when the thrown ball sails over to the OF. Seeing this, the 3B runner contuinues (no tagup) home and scores. 2B runner now standing on 2Base. The ball is now thrown to 3B to appeal no tagup by the 3B runner who is also now in the dugout.

Since the appeal at 2B cannot ensue (runner standing there), can a appeal at 3B for no tagup? since the ball is still live?

[Richard_Siegel]

Got one, just recofirming legality.

One out, runners on 2B and 3B. Pop up between 1st & 2nd. Runners leave on the hit. Ball is caught. Ball is thrown to second to appeal no tagup. 2B runner is returning to 2B to retouch when the thrown ball sails over to the OF. Seeing this, the 3B runner continues (no tagup) home and scores. 2B runner now standing on 2Base. The ball is now thrown to 3B to appeal no tagup by the 3B runner who is also now in the dugout.

Since the appeal at 2B cannot ensue (runner standing there), can a appeal at 3B for no tagup? since the ball is still live?

R3 is out #3 on appeal. No run scores. Inning over.

[Solsaa]

The short answer is yes.

[dnemeth4809]

Bad system is better than no system. Accept the local rules and make sure you and your partner understand both of your responsibilites so you cover the plays to the best of both of your abilities.Try to use the accepted mechanics when and where you can get away without being in conflict with your local league

[johnnyg08]

Bad system is better than no system. Accept the local rules and make sure you and your partner understand both of your responsibilites so you cover the plays to the best of both of your abilities.Try to use the accepted mechanics when and where you can get away without being in conflict with your local league

Yeah, no matter what system you use, make sure you have a pregame stating what you're going to do and who's going to be where. If you're working with a person who you haven't worked with before, regardless of experience, you must talk through your rotations. After a play blows up on you is too late.