ball 4

[71ump]

I have looked all over the rule book & still need help. Situation: bases loaded, tie score & bottom of 7th. Batter draws a ball 4 & stands 3 feet to the left of the batters box waiting to congratulate the winning run coming in from 3rd. Fans are yelling at him to go touch first. He advances after being touched & told by team mates to advance to first & before the runner from 3rd touches home. I called the batter runner out for being physically assisted. The rule says the coach cannot physically assist. I cannot find a rule that supports my call nor a case book example.

[redkoz]

Wow.
Sounds like you made a mistake on the out. How was the runner assisted?

[semper_fi_72]

I have looked all over the rule book & still need help. Situation: bases loaded, tie score & bottom of 7th. Batter draws a ball 4 & stands 3 feet to the left of the batters box waiting to congratulate the winning run coming in from 3rd. Fans are yelling at him to go touch first. He advances after being touched & told by team mates to advance to first & before the runner from 3rd touches home. I called the batter runner out for being physically assisted. The rule says the coach cannot physically assist. I cannot find a rule that supports my call nor a case book example.

Touched How?
Touched by whom?
Does it matter if he goes to first base?
All runners are protected to advance one base because they were forced by the walk.
Run scores....games over...head to the car.

[Rich_Ives]

Does it matter if he goes to first base?
.

Actually, in OBR - yes - he must go touch first (and R3 must touch home plate - others can do whatever they wish). You can call him out if he refuses.

There is no time limit.

There is no assist violation in the OP.

If it wouldn't be the third out it doesn't matter if he goes or not.

[abevillarreal]

71UMP, the runner CAN be assisted by another runner, nothing in the rules disallow it. and as far as a base coach he must physically ASSIST not just physically touch.

[newblue4co]

Posted March 17, 2010 07:38 AM
Hope I can even explain what I saw last night...

Extra innings first region game of the year, bottom of the 8th, tied score 3-3, bases loaded, 2 outs, full count, all runners on the move...ball four! Players rush the baserunner that just came home, they surround the batter...yes, the batter, in the bedlam, the batter never took first base after the walk, everyone was caught up in the moment, many of us outside the fence were yelling to "take the base!" Once someone finally got his attention, he runs down to first...the celebration continues, but then wait...umpire pow-wow...they ruled the batter OUT (although we didn't ever figure out the exact ruling...I guess it either had something to do with either going out of the base line during the celebration or being touched by the other players...something).

So, we move to the 10th. Visting team goes up by three runs...bottom of the 10th home team comes back and hits two, 2-run homeruns to walkoff the visiting team...redemption for the batter that didn't take first....

Long story short, how is the out recorded? Does he get credit for a walk, and then an out? That was by-far the strangest thing I think I had ever seen on the ball field.

This is from another baseball site this week and in South Carolina. I wonder if this is the same game.

[71ump]

I am the original poster. I appreciate the responses. I know that I made a mistake & thankfully the team that was affected by the call went on to win. I would like to ask the following question: a runner at first. Ball hit to the outfield, runner at first takes few steps to make sure it isn't caught, the batter runner comes up from behind him, does not pass him but proceeds to push him towards second base is there a call for that. Is he out or now you have potential runners at first & second. Thanks

[Rich_Ives]

I am the original poster. I appreciate the responses. I know that I made a mistake & thankfully the team that was affected by the call went on to win. I would like to ask the following question: a runner at first. Ball hit to the outfield, runner at first takes few steps to make sure it isn't caught, the batter runner comes up from behind him, does not pass him but proceeds to push him towards second base is there a call for that. Is he out or now you have potential runners at first & second. Thanks

Did you read the responses above?

It's legal - there is no call to make.

[CoachJM]

71ump,

No violation there. There is no prohibition against one runner physically assisting another. By interpretation, it is accepted.

Just keep it in play, watch what happens, and keep straight who is entitled to which base.

JM

[umpjmb32]

Must be a full moon... Ooo.........:D

[Richard_Siegel]

I have looked all over the rule book & still need help. Situation: bases loaded, tie score & bottom of 7th. Batter draws a ball 4 & stands 3 feet to the left of the batters box waiting to congratulate the winning run coming in from 3rd. Fans are yelling at him to go touch first. He advances after being touched & told by team mates to advance to first & before the runner from 3rd touches home. I called the batter runner out for being physically assisted. The rule says the coach cannot physically assist. I cannot find a rule that supports my call nor a case book example.

Only a base coach cannot phyisically assist. Runners and can touch, push, pull, drag and carry each other as much as they want. There is a precedent for a runner who actually passed out while running the bases between 3B and HP. He fell down right in the baseline. The next runner picked him up and carried him to HP and carefully touched HP with the lead runner's foot before touching HP himself. This was allowed and it is legal.

For a runner to pass another there must be day light between the entire body of R2 and R1 when R1 is ahead of R2. If the runners are somehow embracing, whether in celebration or for medical reasons they are considered to be at the "same place" on the basepath. Being at the "same place" means nobody has been passed. It does not matter who passed whom or in which direction they are running. I once called the BR out between 1B and 2B when the next runner, R1, decided to run back to 1B. Even though R1 was the dumb-bell, the BR was called out leaving R1 at 1B.

[Richard_Siegel]

Posted March 17, 2010 07:38 AM
Hope I can even explain what I saw last night...

Extra innings first region game of the year, bottom of the 8th, tied score 3-3, bases loaded, 2 outs, full count, all runners on the move...ball four! Players rush the baserunner that just came home, they surround the batter...yes, the batter, in the bedlam, the batter never took first base after the walk, everyone was caught up in the moment, many of us outside the fence were yelling to "take the base!" Once someone finally got his attention, he runs down to first...the celebration continues, but then wait...umpire pow-wow...they ruled the batter OUT (although we didn't ever figure out the exact ruling...I guess it either had something to do with either going out of the base line during the celebration or being touched by the other players...something).

So, we move to the 10th. Visting team goes up by three runs...bottom of the 10th home team comes back and hits two, 2-run homeruns to walkoff the visiting team...redemption for the batter that didn't take first....

Long story short, how is the out recorded? Does he get credit for a walk, and then an out? That was by-far the strangest thing I think I had ever seen on the ball field.

This is from another baseball site this week and in South Carolina. I wonder if this is the same game.

There is no explanation for the batter being called out. He probably shouldn't have been called out. Perhaps in the scrum he maybe stepped into the dugout before going to 1B, maybe that could be it. Maybe the runner from 3B was called out because he did not touch HP and a defensive player with the ball and stepped on HP and appealed it to the umpire and you just thought the batter was called out.

[Richard_Siegel]

I am the original poster. I appreciate the responses. I know that I made a mistake & thankfully the team that was affected by the call went on to win. I would like to ask the following question: a runner at first. Ball hit to the outfield, runner at first takes few steps to make sure it isn't caught, the batter runner comes up from behind him, does not pass him but proceeds to push him towards second base is there a call for that. Is he out or now you have potential runners at first & second. Thanks

If you see a trailing runner push a lead runner and nobody is passed, yes there IS a mechanic for that. It is the "safe" mechanic while you say, "That's nothing!" Beacuse somebody is going to think it is a violation when it is not. Doing that mechanic may prevent a coach from the defense from coming out to complain.

[newblue4co]

Richard,
I found that on a high school baseball website, it was posted by someone that attended the game. The poster on that was from SC and the poster here was from SC. I was thinking that this could have been the same game seen from two different points of view. I thought it was remarkable to see potentially the same game from an umpire and fan POV.

[redkoz]

Rule 6.08(a) Comment: A batter who is entitled to first base because of a base on balls must go to first base and touch the base before other base runners are forced to advance. This applies when bases are full and applies when a substitute runner is put into the game.
If, in advancing, the base runner thinks there is a play and he slides past the base before or after touching it he may be put out by the fielder tagging him. If he fails to touch the base to which he is entitled and attempts to advance beyond that base he may be put out by tagging him or the base he missed.

Does this mean that in the OP situation that the run would not count if RE3 touched home before BR touched 1st?

And wth does this mean, "and applies when a substitute runner is put into the game".

[bobjenkins]

Rule 6.08(a) Comment: A batter who is entitled to first base because of a base on balls must go to first base and touch the base before other base runners are forced to advance. This applies when bases are full and applies when a substitute runner is put into the game.
If, in advancing, the base runner thinks there is a play and he slides past the base before or after touching it he may be put out by the fielder tagging him. If he fails to touch the base to which he is entitled and attempts to advance beyond that base he may be put out by tagging him or the base he missed.

Does this mean that in the OP situation that the run would not count if RE3 touched home before BR touched 1st?

And wth does this mean, "and applies when a substitute runner is put into the game".

1) No

2) IF the offense wants to put in a pinch runner, the BR must still advancee to first before the subsitution is allowed.

[71ump]

It is evident that I missed this call based solely on there not being a rule to support player interference. I would like to know if there is a specific rule that says a player can physically assist another runner. Your help is greatly appreciated.

[Richard_Siegel]

It is evident that I missed this call based solely on there not being a rule to support player interference. I would like to know if there is a specific rule that says a player can physically assist another runner. Your help is greatly appreciated.

I believe there is no rule that says a player can physically assist another runner. However, the reason is it legal is because there is no rule that says a player can NOT physically assist another runner.

You are not always going to find a rule that says something is legal. Most rules state only those things that are illegal.

There is no rule that says a batter may wear batting gloves. There is no rule that says a player my chew gum, or eat seeds. There is no rule that says a player may wear glasses, or contact lenses. There is no rule that says a pitcher may throw a curve ball. This is because there is no rule that specifically says that any of these actions are illegal.

[Rich_Ives]

It is evident that I missed this call based solely on there not being a rule to support player interference. I would like to know if there is a specific rule that says a player can physically assist another runner. Your help is greatly appreciated.

The important thing is that there is no rule that says he cannot. Therefore as he's not breaking a rule because there isn't one to break, it's legal.

[71ump]

Hey Rich & Richard. I like the fact that you as well as the other umpires gave me some insight into this situation. I like the fact that you challenge umpires to think as well. Since this post I have spoken with college & high school umpires that believed I got the call right. However after they looked & I looked I misapplied the assisting of the runner rule. However in the op he would be out according to rule 2 section 4 article 2. Now I did blow the rule that I applied. That is why I like this site so much it challenges. I do agree that if a rule says you cant do it then its leaves it to the assumption you can do it & visa versa. In the pitching rule however it tells us what a pitcher can & cant do. Thanks for all your insight.

[yzas]

However in the op he would be out according to rule 2 section 4 article 2.

Why would he be out on 2-4-2? He legally went to and touched 1B right?

Is is the "immediately" that you think he violated? If so, I think you'd be taking that way too literally.

[71ump]

yzas, although I do appreciate your comment. I do think that when I have looked at other posts & responses they want you to enforce the rule as written. So I do believe immediately is immediately. He had stepped out of the box, backwards, he waited to celebrate with the runner coming home, he did not think about advancing even as the fans were yelling at him to go touch first base, he waited til team mates came out of the dugout to celebrate with him & he only went after being pushed & told to go to first by team mates. So yes I do agree that I took that literally.

[Richard_Siegel]

yzas, although I do appreciate your comment. I do think that when I have looked at other posts & responses they want you to enforce the rule as written. So I do believe immediately is immediately. He had stepped out of the box, backwards, he waited to celebrate with the runner coming home, he did not think about advancing even as the fans were yelling at him to go touch first base, he waited til team mates came out of the dugout to celebrate with him & he only went after being pushed & told to go to first by team mates. So yes I do agree that I took that literally.

I think you are misunderstanding this rule. If you believe "immediately is immediately," then you should be calling abtters out who stop to remove an elbow shield and toss it to the on-deck circle before riuning up to 1B on a base-on-balls.

Most every rule we enforce requires a measure of judgment and experience of the game circumstances and the situation. There is always the posibility of calling a BR out for "refusal" who does not go to 1B after you have firmly ordered him to do so. However, this was a game ending situation where celebration is acceptable. IMO if the BR waited for R3 to score and spent a few seconds clebrating with him it is OK because he is not delaying the game and he is not showing you up. In this circumstance I think you have to give the offence ample opportunity to comply with the rules. I would have waited there a good 2 minutes to see what would happen before taking action. On a ballfield 2 minutes is a very long time. If this happened in an earlier inning and even if the HR tied the game or got the offensive team a lead then such celebrating is not acceptable and I would give the BR much less slack in that situation.

[71ump]

Most every rule we enforce requires a measure of judgment and experience of the game circumstances and the situation. There is always the posibility of calling a BR out for "refusal" who does not go to 1B after you have firmly ordered him to do so. However, this was a game ending situation where celebration is acceptable. IMO if the BR waited for R3 to score and spent a few seconds clebrating with him it is OK because he is not delaying the game and he is not showing you up.
Well in my judgement he did not go to first base immediately. So would he not be out, in MY judgement, no one elses, mine? Also if this portion of Richards post is accurate then rule 9 section 1 art 1 note 2 might be an issue. because the runner from third cannot technically score if he is not forced by runners advancing to their respective bases.

[Richard_Siegel]

....Also if this portion of Richards post is accurate then rule 9 section 1 art 1 note 2 might be an issue. because the runner from third cannot technically score if he is not forced by runners advancing to their respective bases.

You are correct in that run that would be scored by the runner from third can not be legally counted until all runners, including the BR have touched their advance base. However, it is not important in what order each runner touches his next base. IOW, the runner from third may come to HP and touch HP before the BR touches 1B, before the runner from 2B touches 3B, and before the runner from 1B touches 2B. It just that the official scorer can not yet count his run, and the umpire cannot declare the game over, until the other 3 base runners have touched their advance base. When it a game-winning, walk-off base-on-balls you have to be resonable and use some common sense. Walk-off celebrating is part of the game.

[yzas]

Richard,

What would you do if the offense doesn't know or forgets that R1 & R2 must touch the next base and they move towards the celebration at HP?

Would you judge when "abandonment" occurs and then call them out?

[Richard_Siegel]

Well in my judgement he did not go to first base immediately. So would he not be out, in MY judgement, no one elses, mine? Also if this portion of Richards post is accurate then rule 9 section 1 art 1 note 2 might be an issue. because the runner from third cannot technically score if he is not forced by runners advancing to their respective bases.

I bet you carry a small ruler with you on the field to make that the uniform number each player's back is at least eight inches high.

That is rule 1 section 4 article 3.

[Richard_Siegel]

Richard,

What would you do if offense doesn't know or forgets that they all must touch the next base and they move towards the celebration at HP?

Would you judge when "abandonment" occurs and then call the out?

If a runner's action clearly demonstrated to me that he has given up his right/responsibility to advance to the next base by coming to the plate area to celeberate instead of going to his next base, then yes. However, it is much harder to demonstrate abandonment if you're standing in the same place and don't go anywhere as in the case of the BR. And of course the abandonment rule only applies to the runners at 1B, 2B, and 3B, not the BR.

[Pete_Booth]

Actually, in OBR - yes - he must go touch first (and R3 must touch home plate - others can do whatever they wish). You can call him out if he refuses.

There is no time limit.

There is no assist violation in the OP.

If it wouldn't be the third out it doesn't matter if he goes or not.

Rich since this is a HS Forum I will assume that they were playing by FED rules.

If so ALL runners NOT Just R3/B1 like OBR need to touch their advance to bases or could be called out on appeal. I think there is a FED case play on this as well.

Pete Booth

[yzas]

Holy Moly.

The OP didn't mention how many outs there were or what R1 & R2 did but let's say there were no outs and both R1 and R2 headed straight to HP to join the celebration.

You call them out for abandoning but nobody really notices. The outs remove the force on R3 who touched HP surrounded by a mob. Mob is now moving slowly toward the dugout celebrating the would-be victory. Defense is leaving the field in "defeat".

You (the only person who knows what's really happening) are holding your position on the field.

Now what?
R3 also out for abandonment? 3rd out, move to the 8th inning?
Or R3 safe at home on a "steal" - Game over?
Or INT at home, R3 out? (could the celebration be ruled INT?)

Good Lord. As a new guy, these are the scenarios that keep me up at night. I hope I'm in the stands the first time I see this one.

[Pete_Booth]

[QUOTE]Holy Moly.

The OP didn't mention how many outs there were or what R1 & R2 did but let's say there were no outs and both R1 and R2 headed straight to HP to join the celebration.

You call them out for abandoning but nobody really notices.


Read Rich Ives response. In OBR when a game is tied with the bases juiced and B1 walks, ALL that is required is for B1 to touch first and R3 to touch home. R1/R2 do not matter.

Now in FED, ALL runners need to complete their base running responsibilities so if R1/R2 do not fullfill their base running responsibilities, then in FED you can call them out for abandonment.

Pete Booth

[yzas]

...then in FED you can call them out for abandonment.

Let's stick with Fed since we're in the High School forum.

How does my hypothetical end?

[Richard_Siegel]

Holy Moly.

The OP didn't mention how many outs there were or what R1 & R2 did but let's say there were no outs and both R1 and R2 headed straight to HP to join the celebration.

You call them out for abandoning but nobody really notices. The outs remove the force on R3 who touched HP surrounded by a mob. Mob is now moving slowly toward the dugout celebrating the would-be victory. Defense is leaving the field in "defeat".

You (the only person who knows what's really happening) are holding your position on the field.

Now what?
R3 also out for abandonment? 3rd out, move to the 8th inning?
Or R3 safe at home on a "steal" - Game over?
Or INT at home, R3 out? (could the celebration be ruled INT?)

Good Lord. As a new guy, these are the scenarios that keep me up at night. I hope I'm in the stands the first time I see this one.

This is not an appeal situation, I would have to call the runner(s) out. If a runner were called out in this sitiation for abandonment the run by R3 would still be scored because he is awarded HP and long as R3.

However, to be honest, I would wait and "chat" with my partner near HP until every single defense player had left fair territory and was in or near their dugout, and I would also give sometime for a coach on the defense come out and ask about it. Once I was convinced that nobody had noticed the abandonment I would leave. Game over.

[71ump]

Richard wrote this: This is not an appeal situation, I would have to call the runner(s) out. If a runner were called out in this sitiation for abandonment the run by R3 would still be scored because he is awarded HP and long as R3.

According to Rule 9 section 1 Art. 1 notes 2 When the winning run is scored in the last half inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases loaded which forces the runner on third base to advance, the umpire shall not declare the game over until all runners have advanced to the next base.

As a footnote to the op, there were 2 outs. Sorry for that piece of confusing/left out information.

However, to be honest, I would wait and "chat" with my partner near HP until every single defense player had left fair territory and was in or near their dugout, and I would also give sometime for a coach on the defense come out and ask about it. Once I was convinced that nobody had noticed the abandonment I would leave. Game over.