Two potential OBS questions around 1B

[JHLeatherwood]

One that happened in a game I was watching Friday night:

Outs and runners don't matter.
Batter hits a dribbler in the direction of the gap between F3 and F4. F3 fields it as F1 and F4 both head over to cover the bag. F3 get to the bag one step ahead of F1, F4, and BR.

In my opinion, F1 obstructed BR. Is there any reason (other than umpire incompetence) that more than one fielder (in this case, F3, with the ball) should be protected?

Second-a hypothetical based on something that almost happened. Again, runners and outs don't matter.
Batter hits a fly ball to shallow left. F3, watching the ball, drifts over the 1B bag and obstructs BR. F5 catches the fair ball for the out.

Would this be OBS, even though BR is clearly out on the catch?

[CoachJM]

JHL,

At any given point in time only ONE fielder can be "protected" - although it is possible that the "protection" can shift from one fielder to another during the course of a given play. In your sitch, F1 is not protected and is liable to the obstruction call.

If the fly ball is legally caught for an out, the apparent Obstruction of the BR by F3 is disregarded.

JM

[Richard_Siegel]

One that happened in a game I was watching Friday night:

Outs and runners don't matter.
Batter hits a dribbler in the direction of the gap between F3 and F4. F3 fields it as F1 and F4 both head over to cover the bag. F3 get to the bag one step ahead of F1, F4, and BR.

In my opinion, F1 obstructed BR. Is there any reason (other than umpire incompetence) that more than one fielder (in this case, F3, with the ball) should be protected?

Second-a hypothetical based on something that almost happened. Again, runners and outs don't matter.
Batter hits a fly ball to shallow left. F3, watching the ball, drifts over the 1B bag and obstructs BR. F5 catches the fair ball for the out.

Would this be OBS, even though BR is clearly out on the catch?

Please repost the 1st sitch: You have F3 fielding the ball and then F3 gets to the bag one step ahead of the BR. Did he throw the ball to himself? Who actually received the throw? Did the person who took the throw have the ball when he "obstructed" the BR. Or did the person did not have the ball obstruct the BR. Since these kinds of things are usually HTBT, it helps to have better description of the play.

Suffice it to say, if a fielder has the ball he can block the base from the runner, whether it is intentionally blocked or not. If F1 without the ball obstructed the BR before he was put out by the fielder with the ball then you have OBS. However, I have seem BRs get put out by one fielder and then the other fielder, without the ball, accidentally obstruct the BR before reaching 1B, but the BR was already out. So I did not call OBS because you can't obstruct a retired runner.

That leads right into your next situtation. Once the batted fly ball is caught and obstruction called on a BR that mayhave happpened before the ball was caught or after the balls was caught should be ignored, because you can't obstruct a retired runner.

[JHLeatherwood]

Please repost the 1st sitch: You have F3 fielding the ball and then F3 gets to the bag one step ahead of the BR. Did he throw the ball to himself? Who actually received the throw? Did the person who took the throw have the ball when he "obstructed" the BR. Or did the person did not have the ball obstruct the BR. Since these kinds of things are usually HTBT, it helps to have better description of the play.

Truly a HTBT ...

Ball hit between F3 and F4 - more than a bunt, less than a hit.
F3 moves to the ball. As he runs to his right, F4 and F1 head for 1B.
F3 fields the ball and decides to run to 1B rather than throw to either F1 or F4, who are both still on the move toward 1B.
F4 hears F3 call him off and peels off toward right field.
F1 either doesn't hear or doesn't care, and continues toward 1B.

If I could take a snapshot, at the moment in question:
F4 is two steps to the outfield side of 1B, turning toward his left out of the way.
F3's foot is 1" above the center of 1B, and he's running straight toward the fence. (in the OP I meant that F3 hit the bag one step before the BR, not one step before everyone else.)
F1 is one step ahead of F3, on the plate side of 1B, with his trailing foot in front of the base.
BR is one step away from F1, in the running lane, with his hands in front of him in classic "pre-collision wince" mode.

The next instant, F1 is past the base, BR runs into F3 just after F3 steps on the bag. From my superior vantage point in the stands :rolleyes:, it looked like BR flinched to avoid F1, which put him to the bag a half-step behind F3.

I didn't get to ask the umps why they didn't call obstruction. Good thing, too, since my son was sitting on the defensive team's bench during the play.

Suffice it to say, if a fielder has the ball he can block the base from the runner, whether it is intentionally blocked or not. If F1 without the ball obstructed the BR before he was put out by the fielder with the ball then you have OBS. However, I have seem BRs get put out by one fielder and then the other fielder, without the ball, accidentally obstruct the BR before reaching 1B, but the BR was already out. So I did not call OBS because you can't obstruct a retired runner.

So if the BR had been, say, far enough away from the bag that his path to the bag was not altered by F1 when F3 hit the bag, the fact that F1 was in the way would not matter because he's already out? That works for me.

That leads right into your next situation. Once the batted fly ball is caught any obstruction called on a BR that may have happened before the ball was caught or after the balls was caught should be ignored, because you can't obstruct a retired runner.

This is what I thought, but I couldn't find the specific wording about "a retired runner cannot be obstructed."

As always, thanks!

[Richard_Siegel]

...I couldn't find the specific wording about "a retired runner cannot be obstructed." ....

And you won't find any wording that says coaches, spectators and bat boys can't be obstructed either. They can't put everything in the rule book. You have to deduce certain things from using a little logic.

The rules (FED) says "Obstruction is an act (intentional or unintentional, as well as physical or verbal) by a fielder, any member of the defensive team or its team personnel that hinders a runner..." and a runner is a player who "legally has the right to advance to and touch home plate," If you combine those two rules then you can see that once a runner is out he is no longer a runner, and once he is no longer a runner he cannot be obstructed.

[Dano]

And you won't find any wording that says coaches, spectators and bat boys can't be obstructed either. They can't put everything in the rule book. You have to deduce certain things from using a little logic.

The rules (FED) says "Obstruction is an act (intentional or unintentional, as well as physical or verbal) by a fielder, any member of the defensive team or its team personnel that hinders a runner..." and a runner is a player who "legally has the right to advance to and touch home plate," If you combine those two rules then you can see that once a runner is out he is no longer a runner, and once he is no longer a runner he cannot be obstructed.






Richard (and others).

This is a follow up question and I think it goes along with the sitch described here.

The way I am reading the rules, obstruction can be one of two things: Physical / verbal.

So I have a follow up question here:

A couple of examples:

I think that in Leatherwoods sitch, he felt the runner was being obstructed by all the people running in front of him EVEN THOUGH they didn't make physical contact.


A similar situation that I am seeing more and more.

Ground ball anywhere to the infield besides F1 and F3.

F1 takes off from the mound and sprints to go behind F3 to cover in case of an overthrow. In his running F1 goes across the base path and usually 1-2 steps in front of the Batter / Runner.


So, again, I pose the question:

Does their have to be physical CONTACT for their to be physical obstruction?

[abevillarreal]

from my understanding of OBS there does NOT have to be contact, if the runner alters in some way (phyisical way) his natural path to the base then you have OBS. if the alteration causes him to be put out and in your judgement he would have been safe without the OBS or altering of path you would award the base. Abe

[Richard_Siegel]

from my understanding of OBS there does NOT have to be contact, if the runner alters in some way (phyisical way) his natural path to the base then you have OBS. if the alteration causes him to be put out and in your judgement he would have be safe without the OBS or altering of path you would award the base. Abe

Exactly

[VTponyump]

Agreed...there does not have to be physical contact, but any act by a fielder without the ball that hinders, alters, impedes or confuses the runner.

[Ozzy]

Truly a HTBT ....

If I could take a snapshot, at the moment in question:
F4 is two steps to the outfield side of 1B, turning toward his left out of the way.
F3's foot is 1" above the center of 1B, and he's running straight toward the fence. (in the OP I meant that F3 hit the bag one step before the BR, not one step before everyone else.)
F1 is one step ahead of F3, on the plate side of 1B, with his trailing foot in front of the base.
BR is one step away from F1, in the running lane, with his hands in front of him in classic "pre-collision wince" mode.

The next instant, F1 is past the base, BR runs into F3 just after F3 steps on the bag. From my superior vantage point in the stands :rolleyes:, it looked like BR flinched to avoid F1, which put him to the bag a half-step behind F3.
Well F4 is out of the play by your description. It almost seems that if F1 were not there, there still would have been a collision but none of that matters. It is definatly a HTBT play but if it happens exactly as you say, F1 caused obstruction so B1 is awarded 1st base.

As for your 2nd situation:
Batter hits a fly ball to shallow left. F3, watching the ball, drifts over the 1B bag and obstructs BR. F5 catches the fair ball for the out.

Would this be OBS, even though BR is clearly out on the catch?
Are you serious? If the ball is caught, the entire team could obstruct the BR, it would not matter (I hope you get my humor here). Are you a player, fan or coach?

[JHLeatherwood]

As for your 2nd situation:

Are you serious? If the ball is caught, the entire team could obstruct the BR, it would not matter (I hope you get my humor here). Are you a player, fan or coach?

I asked for that ... posting what I knew was a question with an obvious answer. I'm not even sure I know why it was a question.