Two balls on the field

[umpire1991v2]

Here is a question that almost happened last year to me in an American Legion game. Batter hits the ball to the outfield past the left fielder. The grass is extremely high on this field. Suddenly while running the fielder kicks a different baseball that was hidden in the grass. Ignoring the situation the fielder continued after the game ball picked it up and threw it in. What is the ruling if he had picked up the other ball and tried to throw it in? I could not find anything under "The Runner" and I am not sure where else it would be. If I had to make a guess I would think the ball is dead and the runner is stopped at the previous base touched not including the plate so he would get first base in that situation.

[ump_24]

Here is a question that almost happened last year to me in an American Legion game. Batter hits the ball to the outfield past the left fielder. The grass is extremely high on this field. Suddenly while running the fielder kicks a different baseball that was hidden in the grass. Ignoring the situation the fielder continued after the game ball picked it up and threw it in. What is the ruling if he had picked up the other ball and tried to throw it in? I could not find anything under "The Runner" and I am not sure where else it would be. If I had to make a guess I would think the ball is dead and the runner is stopped at the previous base touched not including the plate so he would get first base in that situation.

My rulebook is packed away for my trip home, but I think 9.01c) would apply here.

As such, I'd be inclined to say the play is dead as soon as the second ball is picked up, and runner(s) are awarded the base(s) to which we feel they would advance had the proper ball been played.

[umpire1991v2]

Alright. I was along those lines but I didn't want to sound like an idiot and throw that out there without knowing for sure. Thanks Ump.

[mr umpire]

No matter what, this falls on the umpire to pay attention. Regardless of how high the grass is. And, if it is the first inning, then this would have been seen(possibly) when checking the field conditions before the game.

But, with the chance of this happening, the ball should be dead immediately IMO. Placement of the runners should be where they last legally touched or forced to. My reason is b/c someone is getting screwed on this. It might be the offense, the defense, or both. No matter what, the umpire(s) have a problem.

If you go by last legally touched or forced to, the defense may feel victorious b/c they were going to give an extra base. The offense may feel victorious b/c they were going to be out. I don't feel it is right to put runners where the umpire thinks they would have gotten to b/c the defense did nothing wrong so why punish them. That is generally reserved for OBS.

It is easier to reason with putting them back and only have a slightly miffed OHC than having a completely irate DHC. This way both feel some relief and a second chance to do something big.

[Solsaa]

It all depends on the proximity of the balls, if the fielder should know which ball is in play, and if it is a day or night game.

[BrianC14]

No matter what, this falls on the umpire to pay attention. Regardless of how high the grass is. And, if it is the first inning, then this would have been seen(possibly) when checking the field conditions before the game.
...


Hmmm... what about practice throws between innings?

If "someone's getting screwed", why should it be the offensive team? What if the game ball was lying on the warning track, and the fielder picked up a practice ball that they'd left there?

[CoachJM]

I agree with ump_24 and BrianC.

There is no rule in the book that directly covers this situation.

Therefore, it is a 9.01(c) situation.

To me, the rule most probative in this situation is the Spectator Interference rule - something "that shouldn't have" happened that altered the course of play, and neither team was "responsible" for it.

Kill it and award bases according to your best judgement of what would have happened had it not happened. This is a perfectly acceptable occasion to get a crew together to determine proper placement of runners with everybody's input.

I concur with Brian's point that you can't just disfavor one team because they happen to be at bat.

If it were a "toss up" on a sitch like this as to whether the runner(s) advanced or returned, in this sitch I'd likely go with "advance" because it was the defense who "screwed up" (playing the wrong ball) and the batter had a nice hit.

If the defense is the home team, I'm definitely going with "advance" because if they'd maintain their field better, this wouldn't happen in the first place.

If I were convinced the batter played the wrong ball "on purpose", I'd likely give the batter a triple.

Or you could put the batter back at 1B if that's what you thought would have happened.

Since it's 9.01(c), you can't really be WRONG - but you can be "better" or "worse".

JM

[mr umpire]

So if it is the visiting team, then they get screwed for it not being their field? If the one team left the ball on the field and the other team is the one who found it, the defense gets screwed b/c of the other team? If the player makes a dive, then after he gets up and sees where a ball is, he gets penalized b/c he didn't see where the ball went? There are a lot of different factors in it than it simply being the defense's ball and fault.

This all stems from an inattentive umpire who would have prevented everything by paying attention. But, since it happened and no one knows who left the ball on the field, then both teams should get "screwed" a little and share the blame. That is my standpoint b/c the umpire didn't know the ball was out there means he didn't know who left it out there.

[dash_riprock]

This all stems from an inattentive umpire who would have prevented everything by paying attention. But, since it happened and no one knows who left the ball on the field, then both teams should get "screwed" a little and share the blame. That is my standpoint b/c the umpire didn't know the ball was out there means he didn't know who left it out there.
Boy are you strict!

[Richard_Siegel]

I hate dissappoint all you 9.01c fans, but there is a rule. There is a rule in the book about "loose equipment" left on the field. A ball is equipment too. If the non-game ball "interferes with paly" i.e. it is handled and as such becomes a part of the play, whether by accident or intentionally (i.e. the fielder throws it to another or treats it like the actual game ball) the umpire should kill the play and place runners where he feels it will "nullify" the problem caused by the loose equipment. That means the umpire can do anything he wants, or nothing at all.

If you use the axiom, "screw the team that screwed up" then you will come to a proper decision. One side or the other will always feel that they were screwed. You can't get away from that. But since the rule allows each umpire to place the runners (or call runners out) based solely on his opinion, there is no "right" answer. You are all "right" because you have all responded according to what you would do based on your opinion.

[CoachJM]

Richard,

I hate to disappoint you, but this is a "point not covered" in the OBR/American Legion Rules being discussed in this thread.

The only OBR rule which touches on the question is 3.14 - which specifies no penalty/remedy for failure to comply. Therefore, it certainly IS a 9.01(c) situation.

I concur with the rest of your post.

I am guessing you were referring to the FED rule on the question, because FED DOES address the "remedy" in the manner you suggest. Interestingly, the NCAA rule suggests a rather different treatment.

But neither OBR nor the Amer. Legion "overrides" to OBR address the question.

JM

[western_ump]

So if I'm reading this properly.... The fielder kicks the extra ball by accident, ignores the second ball, goes and picks up the actual game ball, and continues the play with no attention paid to the extra ball?

So what's the problem, here? Why not let the play finish, call time, and get rid of the extra ball then? Nobody was thrown for a loop by the extra ball... So why make a big deal about it? Now if the field had tried to use the extra ball to gain an advantage I think you'd have something to run with.

[CoachJM]

western_ump,

What you are missing is the question posed in the initial post of this thread.

...What is the ruling if he had picked up the other ball and tried to throw it in? ...

JM

[western_ump]

western_ump,

What you are missing is the question posed in the initial post of this thread.



JM

No... I don't think I am...

I did say if he'd picked it up you'd have something to go with... And that would be a dead ball and placing runners where they should be.

[mr umpire]

The only OBR rule which touches on the question is 3.14 - which specifies no penalty/remedy for failure to comply. Therefore, it certainly IS a 9.01(c) situation.


JM
The thing about 3.14 is that it puts the onus on the offense to clear the field after their time in the field. So, putting them on the next base is rewarding them for failing to do their responsibility.

So, if you go by the "Screw the team who screwed up", then the blame falls on the offense by that rule(provided it isn't the top of the 1st inning).

Again, no one knows who left the ball there so no one knows who to truly penalize. So, putting the runners to an advance base may be rewarding them. And, putting the runners to a trail base may be rewarding them b/c they were not going to make it to an advance base.

Still, both teams share blame for the ball being there. And, by no one advancing, no one gains a true advantage one way or the other since all are to blame.

[rtmueller]

the question is what if the fielder going after a hit ball kicks a ball hidden in the grass, then picks up the non game ball to make a play.
i would say he intentionally did this, therefore you put the baserunners where you feel they would have been if the game ball had been played.
one of the posters said it shouldn't happen because the umps should have checked the entire field of play? i work with very good umps. none of us walk the entire outfield before a game. i don't think there is a debate that if this happened you would need to penalize the defense for intentionally playing the wrong ball.

[Richard_Siegel]

the question is what if the fielder going after a hit ball kicks a ball hidden in the grass, then picks up the non game ball to make a play.
i would say he intentionally did this, therefore you put the baserunners where you feel they would have been if the game ball had been played.
one of the posters said it shouldn't happen because the umps should have checked the entire field of play? i work with very good umps. none of us walk the entire outfield before a game. i don't think there is a debate that if this happened you would need to penalize the defense for intentionally playing the wrong ball.

I usually can find some rule that I can apply to most unusual situations where some guys will go right to 9.01c. However, I don't think there is any rule in any rulebook or case book of baseball or softball that covers a second non-game ball getting involved in a play. This is 9.01c territory for sure. Do whatever you feel will make the situation "fair."