How do you handle a coach like this? [Archive]

ump_24

12-21-2009, 05:27 AM

Alright gentlemen. In the off-season slow down, I have brainstormed another topic to be kicked around. This one so happens to benefit myself directly.

There is a coach around here that I cannot go a season without encountering. When you look up PITA coach, you see his name and photo. He has an "amazing" ability to recognize when an umpire is unconfident in themselves, and will ride them to town all game long if he can.

I first encountered him in 2007 working a 12U tournament game as BU. The guy nearly had my partner (14y/o) in tears at the end of the game. This is a common occurrence for when I run into him as BU; I've mentioned many times that the game-management teachings disappear up here for the most part, until one is well along the way in one's career (and all the young up and coming umpires have quit because they do not know how to manage the harassment). He normally does not say a word to BU the entire game; naturally I would have to look for a reason to eject him in this position, something I choose not to do due to its gross unprofessionalism. That's not to say that his leash is not a choke collar when PU won't step in. It's not blatant B&S arguments, it's just the prolonged kind that the inexperienced ones think they need to "let go" but those educated in proper game management would put a stop to. I try to avoid a pre-game telling them to expect his nonsense in fear of making them even more nervous.

I worked my first game on the dish with him this season. He was ejected on the first pitch in the bottom of the first, with good cause.
Him - "Where was that?"
Myself - "High"
"How could that be high, look at the size of him!"
*ignored*
"That was right at the top of the zone."
"Coach, I told you I had it high. That's enough."
"Why're you telling me that's enough? I'm just saying that pitch was not high."
*mask comes off* "Coach, you are done arguing balls and strikes. Not tonight."
"I'm not arguing balls and strikes, I'm just telling you that pitch was-"
*whoosh*

It can be argued I let it go on a bit longer than normal, but it is extremely evident reading that report that he ejected himself.

Two weeks later, I encounter him again, working as BU. This is where I get to the point of this post (finally). When he is coaching, he spends more of his time chirping the other team. This is a strategy of his and I'm not sure what to do about it. He doesn't get personal with the players nor is he loud and beligerant about it.

In this particular game, he and F5 had something going. It was initiated by the coach after a good defensive play "you guys are pretty cocky, what have you won this year?" and F5 gave it right back "a tournament or two, no big deal." I didn't step in because I didn't want to be a booger-picker or OOO or anything else you can coin in this situation. This is 18U BTW.

It continues throughout the half inning; after a situation where F1 backed up 3B, he was moving back to the mound and told this coach to "shut up and coach." The coach said something back, and F1 ignored him. When F1 was on the mound, set, with live runners, and something from the coach was directed his way, I decided to step in. I called time, and from C / P4, you guys in Florida probably heard me: "Coach, that's enough!"

It worked.

I'm not an advocate of yelling at coaches, or even raising my voice. There are only a number of situations I can count on one hand to do this; they all involve games where the crowd pays to get in. This was a reflex reaction to: OK, this has quickly elevated to a level where I need to step in ASAP, and this is how I can do it best. I've come across many, many coaches before, and he is the only one who makes mind games a strategy. When other coaches / players chirp, they comment things that I can put a stop to right away. This guy, he baits players into responding to him. And I only know this because its happened multiple times; if anyone worked his game for the first time, I'm inclined to believe they'd find the opposition member out of line.

So what would the best course of action be?

heyblue26

12-21-2009, 09:20 AM

Let him hang himself and then eject him. I think that you handled the situation on the balls and strike situation just fine because he was arguing balls and strikes. Coach your done for the day bye.

I also let them have their say and then when its a enough I tell them thats enough lets play. If they don't get it I send them to the showers.

kyle_jt

12-21-2009, 02:01 PM

Him - "Where was that?"
Myself - "High"

That's why you never give location on pitches. I know, I know, you hear the guys in the Bigs do it all the time. But once you start, it's an invitation for arguement. Let them think it was maybe inside/outside, when it was high. Giving them ammo is never a good idea.

And if a coach ever bellows to his catcher "Where was that?!", I always like to whisper to F2 "Be carful" before he responds. Smart catchers know what I mean.

Dean

12-21-2009, 02:17 PM

"The guy nearly had my partner (14y/o) in tears at the end of the game. This is a common occurrence for when I run into him as BU;...and all the young up and coming umpires have quit because they do not know how to manage the harassment). He normally does not say a word to BU the entire game; naturally I would have to look for a reason to eject him in this position, something I choose not to do due to its gross unprofessionalism" - ump-24

Why would anyone, as an adult, let another adult belittle a child to the point of tears? The Adult umpire needs to step up and be a mentor when it is obvious the child doesn't know what to do about the situuation. I would have no problwm coming to my partners aid in this situation.

The coaches "up there" would learn when you are on the field that s**t wont be tolerated.

ump_24

12-21-2009, 02:18 PM

That's why you never give location on pitches. I know, I know, you hear the guys in the Bigs do it all the time. But once you start, it's an invitation for arguement. Let them think it was maybe inside/outside, when it was high. Giving them ammo is never a good idea.

I don't announce the pitch location. "Ball x", where x represents the number, is my verbalization.

I subscribe to the theory of answering the coach the first time. At the moment.

And if a coach ever bellows to his catcher "Where was that?!", I always like to whisper to F2 "Be carful" before he responds. Smart catchers know what I mean.

I am borrowing this. Okay? Deal. :)

But, I am more concerned with how to specifically handle him chirping the other team.

ump_24

12-21-2009, 02:20 PM

Pete_Booth

12-21-2009, 05:33 PM

[QUOTE=ump_24;99040]Alright gentlemen.

The guy nearly had my partner (14y/o) in tears at the end of the game. This is a common occurrence for when I run into him as BU;

When he is coaching, he spends more of his time chirping the other team. This is a strategy of his and I'm not sure what to do about it. He doesn't get personal with the players nor is he loud and beligerant about it.

The MAIN problem is the coach has NOT been disciplined properly. Any league that does NOTHING when an adult coach brings a 14y/o to tears is not worth working in not supporting.

Also, at least in FED Chirping is NOT allowed PERIOD. When you chirp it's by by time.

Unless you work in a league that "takes care of business" unfortunately you will have to deal with these types of bozos. Apparently getting tossed doesn't faze this coach (you already tossed him in a previous game) so a more severe penalty should be handed out by the league pres.

You asked "how do you handle a coach like this" Simply dump him when he starts his chirping or constant complaining. That's all you can do. Ultimately it's up to league to get rid of coaches like this or hand down stiffer penalties.

Pete Booth

ump_24

12-21-2009, 05:36 PM

[QUOTE]

The MAIN problem is the coach has NOT been disciplined properly. Any league that does NOTHING when an adult coach brings a 14y/o to tears is not worth working in not supporting.

Also, at least in FED Chirping is NOT allowed PERIOD. When you chirp it's by by time.

Unless you work in a league that "takes care of business" unfortunately you will have to deal with these types of bozos. Apparently getting tossed doesn't faze this coach (you already tossed him in a previous game) so a more severe penalty should be handed out by the league pres.

You asked "how do you handle a coach like this" Simply dump him when he starts his chirping or constant complaining. That's all you can do. Ultimately it's up to league to get rid of coaches like this or hand down stiffer penalties.

Pete Booth

Pete,

He has not been disciplined because he has a history with the Jays admin, scouting I believe, in the pre-Ricciardi era.

To clarify, you suggest dumping him when he begins to attempt to engage the other team, and allow the league to handle the situation from there?

Appreciated.

BrianC14

12-21-2009, 06:31 PM

[quote=Pete_Booth;99071]

Pete,

He has not been disciplined because he has a history with the Jays admin, scouting I believe, in the pre-Ricciardi era.

Well as we say down my way,

"BIG FAT FREAKIN' HAIRY DEAL."

semper_fi_72

12-21-2009, 06:50 PM

[QUOTE=Pete_Booth;99071]

Pete,

He has not been disciplined because he has a history with the Jays admin, scouting I believe, in the pre-Ricciardi era.

To clarify, you suggest dumping him when he begins to attempt to engage the other team, and allow the league to handle the situation from there?

Appreciated.

Someone's position or history does not give them any additional rights or privileges.
When they are inappropriate and need to be tossed, toss them.
Besides calling Balls and Strikes the job sometimes takes "BALLS" to do what is right.
On the field you are the General and in Command.
If you are a Adult and have a Minor as a partner, it is your responsibility to step in anytime a Adult is abusive in any way, shape or form towards that individual.

newblue4co

12-21-2009, 08:02 PM

Brian,

I was taught to say "That is Horseshit!" Yes, I did learn that at the Mile High Clinic.

mr umpire

12-21-2009, 08:13 PM

[quote=ump_24;99072]

Someone's position or history does not give them any additional rights or privileges.

This would be a fantasy world concept. Sadly, it does carry additional rights and privileges, even on the ball field whether one wants to admit it or not.

It may not influence an umpire from tossing the person. But, it could mean repercussions later following the game.

I know an umpire working his way through the minors. He worked in the independent league for a year before making it into PBUC. After EJ a manager, he got a call later that day from the assignor asking him if the assignor is going to have to fire him. This manager carries some weight in the league.

Now, I know the answer many might give and say "Scratch that league off the schedule." Not if he wanted to get a good report and go back to Wendelstedt for his 2nd year to make it to PBUC. If he had quit, then he could kiss his MiLB career goodbye.

I bring all of this up b/c I see so much say "I would mark that partner/league off the schedule." Or, in this case, one's history/position shouldn't carry additional privileges. Those are very idealistic thoughts.

Richard_Siegel

12-21-2009, 08:41 PM

.....Him - "Where was that?"
Myself - "High"
"How could that be high, look at the size of him!"
*ignored*
"That was right at the top of the zone."
"Coach, I told you I had it high. That's enough."
"Why're you telling me that's enough? I'm just saying that pitch was not high."
*mask comes off* "Coach, you are done arguing balls and strikes. Not tonight."
"I'm not arguing balls and strikes, I'm just telling you that pitch was-"
*whoosh*
....

You did OK here. But ignoring anything a coach who you KNOW is a jerk says is a bad idea. Ignoring him will only make him shout louder or nastier, until you repspond. Ignoring an assistent coach is OK because we don't speak to them anyway. If an AC becomes obnoxious, you can go to the HC and tell the HC to control his assisstant. Or, depending on what he says, you can just dump the AC. But the HC should never be ignored. He is the only person who truly has the right to speak to you, under the rules. Ignoring him gives him a ligit complain against you.

Also, I am sure you knew this guy's first name. You should use it when speaking to him, i.e. "Jerry, I told you I had it high. That's enough." Using his name (especially when he doesn't know yours) gives you a pschological advantage. Believe me. It works.

This is my way with guys like this. If an HC asks about pitch location nicely (and if I don't already know he is a jerk) I will give him the location politely. But just the first time.

Nice guys
Him - "Where was that?"
Myself - "A bit High, Jerry." (politely)
If he asks again within 3 innings....

Him - "Where was that one?"
Myself - "Jerry, I'm not going to give pitch locations. So please don't ask that again." (politely)

If after the first time he asks again many innings later and he has behaved well, I would probably respond like the first time, with the location. My feeling is that as long as he stays respectful and professional, and keeps that question to once or twice a game, I do not mind responding. It's like his reward for behaving himself.

Jerks
Him - "Where was that?"
Myself - "Jerry, I'm not going to give pitch locations. Don't ask that again." (politely but with more authority). If he argues, "That's enough!"

If he asks again later in the game he gets dumped for arguing balls and strikes.

Brotherhood_of_Blue

12-21-2009, 08:42 PM

[quote=ump_24;99072]

Well as we say down my way,

"BIG FAT FREAKIN' HAIRY DEAL."

Amen Brian!

That said: From OBR
4.06 (a) No manager, player, substitute, coach, trainer or batboy shall at any time, whether from the bench, the coach’s box or on the playing field, or elsewhere—
(1) Incite, or try to incite, by word or sign a demonstration by spectators;
(2) Use language which will in any manner refer to or reflect upon opposing players, an umpire, or any spectator;
(3) Call “Time,” or employ any other word or phrase or commit any act while the ball is alive and in play for the obvious purpose of trying to make the pitcher commit a balk.
(4) Make intentional contact with the umpire in any manner.
(b) No fielder shall take a position in the batter’s line of vision, and with deliberate unsportsmanlike intent, act in a manner to distract the batter.
PENALTY: The offender shall be removed from the game and shall leave the playing field, and, if a balk is made, it shall be nullified.

My personal belief is that the above item out of OBR (emphasis mine) gives you everything necessary, whether from the dish or the bases, to shut down his bush behavior. A solid and stern warning, followed by the the whoosh that he's going to be shooting for, are easy to establish.

This helps solve a couple of problems. #1 it shows your inexperienced partner a good method of putting a problem in it's place. #2 even if your the first and strongest to put an end to that behavior, the league, and maybe even the coach, will finally "get it". No guarantee of course, but you will at least be assured that your games will run a little smoother!

Tom

semper_fi_72

12-21-2009, 09:05 PM

[quote=semper_fi_72;99080]

This would be a fantasy world concept. Sadly, it does carry additional rights and privileges, even on the ball field whether one wants to admit it or not.

It may not influence an umpire from tossing the person. But, it could mean repercussions later following the game.

I know an umpire working his way through the minors. He worked in the independent league for a year before making it into PBUC. After EJ a manager, he got a call later that day from the assignor asking him if the assignor is going to have to fire him. This manager carries some weight in the league.

Now, I know the answer many might give and say "Scratch that league off the schedule." Not if he wanted to get a good report and go back to Wendelstedt for his 2nd year to make it to PBUC. If he had quit, then he could kiss his MiLB career goodbye.

I bring all of this up b/c I see so much say "I would mark that partner/league off the schedule." Or, in this case, one's history/position shouldn't carry additional privileges. Those are very idealistic thoughts.

Guess I live in a "Fantasy World" .
But then again, when I do something that may have repercussions, I am sure that what I do is appropriate and can be and is well documented.
I could care less of who someone is when it comes to interfering with me performing my job.
If he of someone of such statue he should know better to begin with.
He should be setting a example not creating problems.
Lead, Follow or get the Hell out of the way.

jfernish

12-22-2009, 12:40 AM

Paic42

12-22-2009, 01:24 AM

I would suggest before the season starts, you get together with all of the umpires who work his league and your assignor, and come up with a plan to deal with him. Get everybody on the same page. After he gets dumped in the first or second inning several times, he just might get the message. If that doesn't produce results, I suggest having your assignor and group Prez go to the Lg Commish and tell them you've had enough of his act

Richard_Siegel

12-22-2009, 01:55 AM

I have had a similar situation where my partner working the plate would not respond to the a coach's chirping, thinking the problem would go away. I talked to my partner between innings on how I would handle this issue. Again the coach continued chirping and my partner did nothing.

I was at the end of my rope, I called time and walked to base line near his dugout and requested the coach come out of the dugout for a meeting. I pulled the score card from my pocket and very calmly told the coach that I had had enough of his unsportsmanlike conduct while looking at the score card. I reminded him he was responsible for his conduct, his coaches and players and that if the unsportsmanlike behavior continued, he would run himself from this game.

The coach replied that he was not talking to me while making his comments. I responded with the classic response of "Well coach I am talking to you and if this behavior continues you will run yourself from this game".

It is very difficult to see your partner belittled and not respond, but their comes a time when I think, "Umpires" have to put a stop to unsportsmanlike activity. The challenge, is how do you stop these coaches without "Throwing your partner under the Bus"? I believe standing by and doing nothing allows the game to spiral out of control.

First of all, why would you have a line-up while working the bases? Why would you have a line-up question in the middle of an inning that would be so important that you would stop play and call a manager out of the dugout to discuss it? Do you really think that looked on the level?

I have heard about this "pull out the line up card to privately scold the manager" ploy and I think it is lame.

If the manager is being an ass everyone needs to see you shut him down for being an ass. What do you think people will think you're doing with the line-up card? They also can see the coach is being a jerk. They will expect the person in charge (the umpire) will deal with the guy. Then they see the umpire do nothing but discuss a line-up card with him. The other team will see the guy being a jerk and they will think you are letting him slide.

I have never used this ploy. I don't believe in disguising my efforts to manage the game. When I feel I need to correct a manager I want everyone to know I am dealing with him. That's because I want the other team to know that they can't pull that crap either. I will NOT invite him onto the field. The last thing I want is to have conversation with such a manager. I want him in the dugout and away from me.

I will walk to the line near his bench and I will point at him and call to him by name and simply say, "Jerry, that's enough! Knock off the chirping." If he gives me the "I'm not talking to you..." crap, I will just repeat the warning one more time, "Jerry, knock it off!" I won't even begin to argue his point because I know it manager BS. Don't let a manager suck you into those kinds of dumb games. Tell him to knock it off. Then stare at him for a moment to in case he has the urge to say something stupid back to you. Once he backs off, go back to your position.

Everyone knows what "Knock it off" means. The fewer words the better. Also, do not make ultimatums. Do you think the manager dosen't know you could eject him? "if the unsportsmanlike behavior continued, he would run himself from this game." Every manager and player knows that. Telling them is something a bully would do.

The point of your post was the question: "how do you stop these coaches without throwing your partner under the bus?" This is very simple. A coach who chirps your partner, is chirping at you to. As soon as you perceive that you partner is not going to deal with the problem, you deal with it. The sooner you shut him down the easier it will be to do it.

BrianC14

12-22-2009, 02:37 AM

If the manager is being an ass everyone needs to see you shut him down for being an ass.

Boo yah!
:D

Richard's approach also sends a clear message to your meek & humble partner, by the way. "HERE is how you handle a big-mouthed coach/manager." And be sure to followup on this lesson in your post-game talk.

He'd owe you at least 2 beers after a lesson like that. :cool:

ump_24

12-22-2009, 03:41 AM

Guys,

This thread is golden. When people ask why we have a board like this, this is the reason.

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: Canadian umpires are not instructed sufficiently in regards to game management. Since it's on my mind, Brian, I doubt any feeble minded partners would be owing me beers, since I myself just became of legal Canadian age. Maybe root beers :)

Richard, the psychological advantage regarding name usage is an interesting one: In reality, I did in fact refer to the coach by his name. And you are correct, he did not know mine, because he refuses to be present for the plate meeting (he wanders away out of sight so PU cannot ask for the manager without significant delay to the game - that's also a rarity here...whoever they send to the dish is normally fine. I try to ask for the manager, though if he doesn't come, I ensure to let the representative coach know that the manager will be the only one to discuss situations with us / be responsible for control of the bench). Back to the names.

Two weeks after this ball / strike incident, I had him again (this is the player chirping game). When I finally stepped in, I used his name. He fired back "how do you know my name? Who do you think you are to call me by name? You don't know me well enough to use my name."

Why this happened this time, and not two weeks prior, I do not know. However, I've been advised by two "big boys" here who are very credible - Augie is friends with one, the other is one of our Level 5 international guys - to refer to him as "coach" or "skip" unless I know him personally.

I enjoy using first names. It feels like there is exceptional rapport on the field, especially when the coach remembers my name and uses it. But this evidently did not sit well - he was ejected later in the game "you were only 75feet out of position for that one" I posted about a ridiculously difficult boundary call I had to make earlier - it was this situation.

Anyway, the comments for protecting a weak partner are exceptionally appreciated; it happens far too much.

What're the consensus of thoughts on the use of names vs the use of coach / skip?

finnerty

12-22-2009, 01:25 PM

Names!

I use this card that I made up:

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g221/ballparkguy/untitled-11.jpg

In the lines where I keep track of conferences (and warnings), I write each coach's name at the beginning of the game and use it every time. It helps set a tone and it's usually very professional.

(You don't need all the other stuff on the bottom, but that's what's required on our reports in L.A.)

mr umpire

12-22-2009, 01:26 PM

I have never used the name simply b/c of my growing up around baseball. It was always "Coach" no matter how well I know the guy. This comes from my years of playing. It is just a reaction.

Maybe it works and I will try to break the habit to test it and see how it goes. But, until I feel the need, I'm not particularly looking to make it a big deal.

finnerty

12-22-2009, 01:45 PM

There's a guy that we all have to deal with in the Valley of L.A. I won't say his name, but he's at his fourth school in seven years. Randy Wolf played for him and said that it was his greatest embarrassment in baseball.

This picture doesn't show how short he is, but it'll give you an image.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g221/ballparkguy/394-1.jpg
(Shades on for the official photo ... classy. Just so you know, that's his best smile)

Coach to catcher: "Where was that?"
Catcher to me: "That was outside and low, right?"
Me to catcher: "Tell him what you saw; I'm good."
Catcher to coach: "It was low and outside."

[next pitch]
Coach to catcher: "Where was that, outside or inside?"
Catcher to me: "Don't worry about him; he's just like that."
Me to catcher: "I'm from the Valley."
Catcher: "Ohhhhh, I gotcha." (If I'm from the Valley I must know this little prick pretty well.)

Little prick goes to his position to coach third, and as he walked by I said, "S----, your reputation as a coach is well established, but this is the first that I knew of that you were also a comedian. ... Inside or outside; that's great stuff."

The little prick's never said a word to me since.

kyle_jt

12-22-2009, 02:08 PM

I do mostly LL, and the local folks are all good people. It's the post season where I'll encounter some hard heads.

Post season lineup cards contain the manager's first name. I ALWAYS use first names when conversing with managers. It always makes them think "Oh s@#, he knows who I am". Guys are way less hostile when you address them as Bob, as opposed to Boss, Chief, Skipper or Coach.

Now if we could only get their full name, and use it like Mom did when we were in trouble, that would be something.

"ROBERT LAURENCE PORTOFSKY you need to knock it off!"

Richard_Siegel

12-22-2009, 02:16 PM

Richard, the psychological advantage regarding name usage is an interesting one: In reality, I did in fact refer to the coach by his name. And you are correct, he did not know mine, because he refuses to be present for the plate meeting (he wanders away out of sight so PU cannot ask for the manager without significant delay to the game - that's also a rarity here...whoever they send to the dish is normally fine. I try to ask for the manager, though if he doesn't come, I ensure to let the representative coach know that the manager will be the only one to discuss situations with us / be responsible for control of the bench). Back to the names.

Two weeks after this ball / strike incident, I had him again (this is the player chirping game). When I finally stepped in, I used his name. He fired back "how do you know my name? Who do you think you are to call me by name? You don't know me well enough to use my name."

Why this happened this time, and not two weeks prior, I do not know. However, I've been advised by two "big boys" here who are very credible - Augie is friends with one, the other is one of our Level 5 international guys - to refer to him as "coach" or "skip" unless I know him personally.

I enjoy using first names. It feels like there is exceptional rapport on the field, especially when the coach remembers my name and uses it. But this evidently did not sit well - he was ejected later in the game "you were only 75feet out of position for that one" I posted about a ridiculously difficult boundary call I had to make earlier - it was this situation.

Anyway, the comments for protecting a weak partner are exceptionally appreciated; it happens far too much.

What're the consensus of thoughts on the use of names vs the use of coach / skip?

You missed the boat on a couple things that let this manager get the best of you.

#1) You must INSIST that the managers (or HCs) attend the plate conference. It is his JOB, and it is in the rules. Letting him blow off the plate meeting is his way of telling you that what you have to say at the meeting is not important enough for him to attend. When I do a game, as each coach arrives at the plate meeting, if I don't know them I introduce myself and ask if he is the team's head coach.

Me: "Larry, are you the head coach?"
AC: "ahhh, NO, Jerry is the head coach, but he talking to the team right now."
Me: "OK, Larry, can you go tell Jerry we need him now for the plate meeting."
AC: "But he might be a while. It's his pep-talk."
Me: "That's OK Larry. We can wait for him. Can you go tell Jerry we need him now for the plate meeting."

Then I stare at the AC to show him I meant what I said. I make sure the AC goes to get the HC. I will wait a reasonable time for him to get there. Typically the AC goes over to the HC and tells him to go to the meeting or "...he won't start the game." The HC comes out, I introduce myself to him as if nothing has bothered me, and we start the meeting. However, the message has been delivered. If he complains that I made him come out there, I just say, "Jerry, thats the way I do things. Thanks for coming out here."

Of course there are times the HC is not there yet. I will begin the meeting but I will ask the AC for the real HC's name. I will tell the AC that I will consider him the HC until the real HC arrives and comes out here to tell me he is now in charge. It is important to always know who the one and only person is who may come out there to discuss a play or a rule with you.

The reason we insist on making the HC come to the meeting is to show him, and the other HC who is already there that the UMPIRES control the game. The UMPIRES control the coaches, not the other way around.

The fact that the coach in your OP was annoyed that you used his name proves the concept that it puts you at an advantage. He was uncomfortable that you knew his name. You have the right to use it.

Comments like: "Who do you think you are to call me by name? You don't know me well enough to use my name." Are grounds for ejection! Never let that go by. He insulted you with Who do you think you are... Umpires do not let managers insult them. He was trying to tell you what you can and cannot do with You don't know me well enough to use my name. Umpires do not allow coaches to tell them what to do.

I recommend you read the book Verbal Judo by Dr. George Thompson. It clearly explains why using a person's name gives you an advantage. This is an umpires must-read.

BTW, I don't want to hijack this thread with a discussion about the use of a coach's name. I wrote an article on the topic that was published in the Officials Quarterly Winter 2007 issue. OQ is a nationally distributed magazine for officials who work in all sports supported by the NFHS (Fed) in the USA. If you are interested in the concept I will post it in a new thread in this forum.

Richard_Siegel

12-22-2009, 02:27 PM

Names!

I use this card that I made up:

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g221/ballparkguy/untitled-11.jpg

I use a similar card, except I filp the Visitors' Coach and Home Coach so the Home Caoch is on the top. This is because the Home Coach is going to make is visits to the pitcher in the TOP of the innings and the Visitors' Coach will go to the mound in the bottom of the innings. It makes sense to me to have it that way so I can match up the visits when they actuall happened.

BrianC14

12-22-2009, 02:30 PM

.... When I do a game as each coach arrives at the plate meeting, if I don't know them I introduce myself and ask if he is the teams head coach.

Me: "Larry, as you the head coach?"
AC: "ahhh, NO, Jerry is the head coach, but he talking to the team right now."
Me: "OK, Larry, can go tell Jerry we need him now for the plate meeting."
AC: "But he might be a while. It's his pep-talk."
Me: "That's OK Larry. We can wait for him. Can go tell Jerry we need him now for the plate meeting."
....

I typically will tell an AC in that situation, "Please go tell 'Jerry' that it's a requirement (FED rules) for the head coach to attend the plate meeting, and it's being held NOW. If he doesn't attend, then he isn't the head coach for this game."

FED coaches know this...

finnerty

12-22-2009, 02:39 PM

Richard, that's a good point, but, by design, every scorecard and scoreboard lists the visitors first.

Pete_Booth

12-22-2009, 03:39 PM

The point of your post was the question: "how do you stop these coaches without throwing your partner under the bus?" This is very simple. A coach who chirps your partner, is chirping at you to. As soon as you perceive that you partner is not going to deal with the problem, you deal with it. The sooner you shut him down the easier it will be to do it.

Richard IMO you have to be careful with the aforementioned approach.

Suppose you are NEW or it's your first year in High calibur ball and your partner (who is the one saying nothing) is a TOP dog in the organization. You do as you suggest and after the game he says "Don't ever show me up like that again or this will be your first and ONLY game at the varsity or whatever high calibur game the person is in". Since this PERSON is a TOP DOG you have little if any say in the matter. It's called politics and it does exist maybe not in your career but perhaps others and if you WANT to stay at a particular level you "bite your tongue" UNTIL you get established.

IMO, your advice is good for a VET like yourself who ALREADY has a solid reputation and is established but NOT good advice for an umpire getting his 'first shot" at a big game and working with a TOP DOG in the organization.

Therefore, IMO, there are 2 answers here.

One you already posted and I agree with IF you are established. However, if you are new and working with a top dog, IMO, you "bite your tongue" and after the game ask him why he didn't do anything.

I would venture to guess that many of us have had to "bite our tongues" early in our careers UNTIL we were established.

Pete Booth

Richard_Siegel

12-22-2009, 03:41 PM

Richard, that's a good point, but, by design, every scorecard and scoreboard lists the visitors first.

Whose to say what and how I write down visits on a card in my own pocket? Nobody else sees my card.

Richard_Siegel

12-22-2009, 03:47 PM

I typically will tell an AC in that situation, "Please go tell 'Jerry' that it's a requirement (FED rules) for the head coach to attend the plate meeting, and it's being held NOW. If he doesn't attend, then he isn't the head coach for this game."

FED coaches know this...

I would not use the excuse that Jerry has to attend the meeting because "it's a requirement (FED rules) for the head coach to attend the plate meeting," That makes me look weak. I want them to do this because I told them to, not because some rule is forcing me to.

And what will you say if it is a non-FED game?

I require the HC to attend the plate meeting for ALL games I do in evey league at every level. I sends the right message.

Pete_Booth

12-22-2009, 04:04 PM

mr umpire;99082

Now, I know the answer many might give and say "Scratch that league off the schedule." Not if he wanted to get a good report and go back to Wendelstedt for his 2nd year to make it to PBUC. If he had quit, then he could kiss his MiLB career goodbye.

I bring all of this up b/c I see so much say "I would mark that partner/league off the schedule." Or, in this case, one's history/position shouldn't carry additional privileges. Those are very idealistic thoughts.
You are comparing Apples and Oranges.

You are talking about PRO ball as compared to AMATEUR ball. In amateur ball UNLESS you are in Division I NCAA
or HS Varsity Level, we do have the luxory of scratching teams / leagues from our schedules.

I excluded NCAA Division I and HS varsity because at those levels politics might (depending upon your location, association , etc) come into play so YES if want to work in a College World Series or State HS varsity final, then you might have to "bite your tongue" sometimes when working with the TOP dogs, but in general at the amateur level we do not have to kiss anyones you know what to get work. There is plenty of it if you are available.

In Summary you cannot compare an umpire trying to work his way up through the PBUC to an amateur umpire. I have the flexibility to scratch teams / leagues from my schedule. I already (2 years ago) scratched the mens adult leagues from my schedule and have not "missed a beat"

Pete Booth

mr umpire

12-22-2009, 04:32 PM

You are comparing Apples and Oranges.

You are talking about PRO ball as compared to AMATEUR ball. In amateur ball UNLESS you are in Division I NCAA
or HS Varsity Level, we do have the luxory of scratching teams / leagues from our schedules.

I excluded NCAA Division I and HS varsity because at those levels politics might (depending upon your location, association , etc) come into play so YES if want to work in a College World Series or State HS varsity final, then you might have to "bite your tongue" sometimes when working with the TOP dogs, but in general at the amateur level we do not have to kiss anyones you know what to get work. There is plenty of it if you are available.

In Summary you cannot compare an umpire trying to work his way up through the PBUC to an amateur umpire. I have the flexibility to scratch teams / leagues from my schedule. I already (2 years ago) scratched the mens adult leagues from my schedule and have not "missed a beat"

Pete Booth

Yes, the comparison can be made if you look deeper than face value. That was an example. I have seen it in HS groups and even local groups. I have seen many get told they will not work for that group again. And, yes, there is plenty out there for those with means to get out there. Some don't. I am not one of them but there are. And, a HS group assignor can hurt your chances depending on how "tight" he is with other assignors. Even, local, non-HS groups may have politics.

I too have not done men's baseball games since about 2002. And, I haven't missed anything. But, it could have happened if my assignor felt like it.

IOW, you have to know your assignor and what might come from it if you decide not to do those games again. Sometimes, you have to look deeper than face value at something.

Willy

12-22-2009, 04:49 PM

I would not use the excuse that Jerry has to attend the meeting because "it's a requirement (FED rules) for the head coach to attend the plate meeting," That makes me look weak. I want them to do this because I told them to, not because some rule is forcing me to.

And what will you say if it is a non-FED game?

I require the HC to attend the plate meeting for ALL games I do in evey league at every level. I sends the right message.

So I guess you're the boss applesauce. From your above post, it's your way or the highway, huh? This is not an approach that I use. I try to earn respect by giving it, not by telling everyone what to do just because I say so.

So, what do you do when the HC is not required by rule to attend the plate meeting and he refuses your edict? Do you eject, refuse to start the game or make up some other penalty? I bet that your insistance would fall on deaf ears in college ball where the HC is only required to be there at the beginning of the series. You're "I told them to" philosophy would get you a quick release and a check for one game.

ump_24

12-22-2009, 04:57 PM

Richard IMO you have to be careful with the aforementioned approach.

Suppose you are NEW or it's your first year in High calibur ball and your partner (who is the one saying nothing) is a TOP dog in the organization. You do as you suggest and after the game he says "Don't ever show me up like that again or this will be your first and ONLY game at the varsity or whatever high calibur game the person is in". Since this PERSON is a TOP DOG you have little if any say in the matter. It's called politics and it does exist maybe not in your career but perhaps others and if you WANT to stay at a particular level you "bite your tongue" UNTIL you get established.

IMO, your advice is good for a VET like yourself who ALREADY has a solid reputation and is established but NOT good advice for an umpire getting his 'first shot" at a big game and working with a TOP DOG in the organization.

Therefore, IMO, there are 2 answers here.

One you already posted and I agree with IF you are established. However, if you are new and working with a top dog, IMO, you "bite your tongue" and after the game ask him why he didn't do anything.

I would venture to guess that many of us have had to "bite our tongues" early in our careers UNTIL we were established.

Pete Booth

Pete,

My original question was referring to a situation where I am the more experienced guy, whether by age, card level, experience, or all of the above on the field.

I moved into several "high quality" leagues and was quiet as a mouse (because I didn't have to be) until some moron started drawing lines in the dirt.

Here, I often run into the issue of soft partners. For example, and your jaws are all going to hit the floor here, I had to eject a player for bumping my partner. The guy, a player, came off the bench to argue the call; I couldn't get in front of him, and he bumped my partner. Who didn't run him.

The common one though is younger / inexperienced partners who will not step up to put an end to balls and strikes arguments.

Still though, you make a good point.

Richard,

Verbal Judo has been on my reading list for quite some time; I can never seem to find it at the bookstore though.

Your points are all well received (again) and (surprise, surprise) they will be implemented in 2010.

I read the article you posted in the other thread; a good read as always.

Richard_Siegel

12-22-2009, 05:38 PM

So I guess you're the boss applesauce. From your above post, it's your way or the highway, huh? This is not an approach that I use. I try to earn respect by giving it, not by telling everyone what to do just because I say so.

So, what do you do when the HC is not required by rule to attend the plate meeting and he refuses your edict? Do you eject, refuse to start the game or make up some other penalty? I bet that your insistance would fall on deaf ears in college ball where the HC is only required to be there at the beginning of the series. You're "I told them to" philosophy would get you a quick release and a check for one game.

Since I know you don't know me nor have you seen me work, I will let your misunderstanding of my game managment philosohy go. All baseball codes require the manager to attend the plate meeting because all codes have in their rules a statement like this, from the OBR:

"The MANAGER is a person appointed by the club to be responsible for the team's actions on the field, and to represent the team in communications with the umpire and the opposing team."

The manager is the person resposible for "communications with the umpire." I need to know who is in charge I want to be sure I know he is and what his name is so I am prepared to only speak to him when there is trouble to sort out. He is the only guy I want to speak to.

My game management method is one of establishing who is in control by taking charge of the things I am supposed to be in charge of. That means not letting managers make decisions for me. If you want repsect you act like you are in control and make sure you do things the right way.

Note that there is no yelling, no disrespect to any coach or managers, no humilation, no edicts, no threats to anyone. What are you reading? I am only politely asking the AC to go get his HC and that I will be happy to wait for the HC to come to the plate meeting. Where is the harshness in that?

You comparision to college ball in not relavent. Of course, if I am doing a college seeries, I will know the HC even before the 1st game. he will be at the first games meeting, so I don't need him at the others. I know who he is, he knows who I am. The grund rules are the same.

The advice I give, as usual, is form the majority of umpire on this forum who umpire in recreational situations where the coaches are dads who are not knowledgible about the protocols of managing and coaching. So we have to teach them. These are guys we might see once or twice in the whole year so we have to find out who is in charge.

I am not kicking ass out there. I am establishing myself as the person inchrage in a polite and professional way. I am very successful at it.

ump_24

12-22-2009, 06:09 PM

finnerty

12-22-2009, 06:24 PM

Whose to say what and how I write down visits on a card in my own pocket? Nobody else sees my card.

I just meant that I'd write it in the wrong place if it was flipped.

Richard_Siegel

12-22-2009, 06:40 PM

Willy,

If an AC refuses to return and send the HC up, or if HC refuses to come up, do we not have an indication of the type of game it is going to be?

If you want an example that it works for someone else, I did employ this during the season, just a lot softer than what Richard is suggesting. Nevertheless, the situation was a team missing their normal HC. I asked for HC at the meeting, AC said he and the other guy were "co-managers". Fair enough, I told him he was "the manager to us, and the one we will communicate to the team through."

Second inning, partner has a banger at 1B and out of the bench comes the other guy.
"Hey hold on a second. Jim, I told you that we would talk to you. You're the one that should be out here."
"Oh, yeah. Sorry. Bob, they did tell me that." Jim was on the field for about 3 seconds because he wasn't watching. Situation diffused.

Richard,

Hypothetical situation for you:
I work the same core group of 20-30 teams most of the year, I've "grown up" along with their teams, so the managers and I know each other.

If there is a situation where Team A who I have seen multiple times a year for 4 years sends up AC, and Team B who I have never seen before sends up AC as well, I imagine it would be appropriate to ask both of them to return and send the manager.

The whole intent of the reason we get the managers at the plate conference is not to show everyone we can throw our weight around and get tough, as some would infer. These are the reasons:

1) To determine who is in charge.
2) To have the chance to get his name and introduce yourself to him.
3) So the OTHER team's HC knows who is in charge.
4) So the OTHER teams' HC has the chance to get his name and for them introduce themselves to each other.
5) In baseball protocol, when two unfamilar teams meet, it is a slap in the face to the HC who comes to the plate meeting when the other team sends out an AC. It is rude.
6) Having the HCs there allows you to know the ground rules have been delivered to the person in charge.
7) Sometimes you have to get an agreement from the HCs on a crufew time, or a courtesy runner issue and the dim-wad AC or scorekeeper who came to the meeting has no clue and can't respond so he has to go get his HC anyway. Thats a waste of time.
8: You have to be paid and the HC is the one who usually has the cash.

If you are working a game where you are EQUALLY very familiar with both teams and they are as familiar with you, then most of those things on the list have already been accomplished. So you can overlook them if you know who is in charges and you know the HCs know everything you have to say at the meeting. This is why in the college example above we don't need the HC at meetings after the first game in the series.

However, if you are familiar with only one team and the other team are strangers, then you must proceed as is if both teams are strangers. You don't want to give the appearance you favor the familiar team.

ump_24

12-22-2009, 06:56 PM

The whole intent of the reason we get the managers at the plate conference is not show everyone we can throw our weight around and get tough as some would infer.

This is why we don't issue warnings at the dish. Save the weight throwing for more appropriate situations...

Willy

12-22-2009, 10:50 PM

Since I know you don't know me nor have you seen me work, I will let your misunderstanding of my game managment philosohy go. All baseball codes require the manager to attend the plate meeting because all codes have in their rules a statement like this, from the OBR:

"The MANAGER is a person appointed by the club to be responsible for the team's actions on the field, and to represent the team in communications with the umpire and the opposing team."

If I misunderstood your game management style, it was because you require the HC to be at the plate meeting because "That makes me look weak. I want them to do this because I told them to, not because some rule is forcing me to." Emphasis yours.

Not "All baseball codes require the manager to attend the plate meeting." I am missing the part in the description of the manager where it is mandatory that he attends the plate meeting. It does clarify what some of his responsibilities are however. As I stated earlier and you echoed, NCAA does not require the HC to attend all plate meetings. OBR has no provision requiring this, however, it is customary to do so. I do not work LL, Pony or USSSA, so I cannot comment on those. FED does require the HC to be at the plate meeting, but they are even exempt for certain reasons, such as tending to an injured player.

I require the HC to attend the plate meeting for ALL games I do in evey league at every level. I sends the right message.

You comparision to college ball in not relavent. Of course, if I am doing a college seeries, I will know the HC even before the 1st game. he will be at the first games meeting, so I don't need him at the others. I know who he is, he knows who I am. The grund rules are the same.

So, regardless of the level, do you require the HC at the plate meeting for the back end of a double header or do you not need him since you know who he is? Just wonderin'

During the course of the year, we have a lot of high school/legion travel tournaments. These teams often have to travel from one ball diamond to another within the city. Most of the time the HC attends the plate meeting. Occasionally, an assistant takes this duty while the HC attends to the line-up or other duties. If the person at the plate meeting is not the HC, I tell the person at the plate meeting to point out the HC and get his name. I also let him know that the HC is the only one to discuss any issues he may have. I also let the representive know that he is responsible for relaying any ground rules we have and there will not be any discussion during the game from anyone concerning these. I have never had a problem with the coaching staffs not knowing who was in charge during the game.

Richard_Siegel

12-22-2009, 11:17 PM

Richard IMO you have to be careful with the aforementioned approach.

Suppose you are NEW or it's your first year in High calibur ball and your partner (who is the one saying nothing) is a TOP dog in the organization. You do as you suggest and after the game he says "Don't ever show me up like that again or this will be your first and ONLY game at the varsity or whatever high calibur game the person is in". Since this PERSON is a TOP DOG you have little if any say in the matter. It's called politics and it does exist maybe not in your career but perhaps others and if you WANT to stay at a particular level you "bite your tongue" UNTIL you get established.

IMO, your advice is good for a VET like yourself who ALREADY has a solid reputation and is established but NOT good advice for an umpire getting his 'first shot" at a big game and working with a TOP DOG in the organization.

Therefore, IMO, there are 2 answers here.

One you already posted and I agree with IF you are established. However, if you are new and working with a top dog, IMO, you "bite your tongue" and after the game ask him why he didn't do anything.

I would venture to guess that many of us have had to "bite our tongues" early in our careers UNTIL we were established.

Pete Booth

Of course if know your partner's abilities to handle the jerks you should let him. If he is an established umpire chances are he will act to snuff the problem himself. Sometimes you are with a new partner for the first time and you don't know him and his abilities.

If you look back at my post I wrote, "As soon as you perceive that your partner is not going to deal with the problem, you deal with it." That means once you KNOW you partner is unable to deal with the trouble, you must act.

I do not consider myself a top-dog in my area. There are many guys with loads more experience and reputation than I have. However, if one of them were to let a jerk abuse him and do nothing I would act. I'll take my partner's crap about it after the game if he wants to complain, but I will not stand by and see him be abused. If people see that I do not do anything when my partner is being abused, then they will think I am too meek to step in and try to deal with it.

Paic42

12-22-2009, 11:27 PM

One of the problems here is that these posts refer to all different levels of ball. But I think that if everyone would look at what is used/required/works at the college/pro level it would make this issue much less complicated. In college, the HC has to go to the P/M the first game of a series. This is how it works in the Indy Lg I work in also.
Now in college, the only one we talk to is the H/C. Pro is a different game.
But here is why I think its important to work like this at any level. Once you allow the A/C's to get involved in discussions and ground rules, you run the risk of miscommunication. You also open the door for more BS.

Willy

12-22-2009, 11:31 PM

Richard,

After looking through OBR, by virtue of 4.01(a), it looks as if the manager is required to attend the plate meeting.

4.01(a) First, the home manager shall give his batting order to the umpire-in-chief, in duplicate.

My main beef was that instead of requiring the HC to be present at the plate meeting by rule, it was because you said so. I just view that as trying to be "the man."

CoachJM

12-22-2009, 11:51 PM

Richard (& Willy),

In other than FED rules, it is the Manager's prerogative to either attend the plate meeting or designate an Assistant to attend in his place:

From Rule 2.00, The Manager

...
(b) The manager may advise the umpire that he has delegated specific duties prescribed by the rules to a player or coach, and any action of such designated representative shall be official. The manager shall always be responsible for his team’s conduct, observance of the official rules, and deference to the umpires.

So, if you insist he attend in person, you are usurping the manager's rights in violation of the rules - which strikes me as a bit overly officious.

JM

Willy

12-23-2009, 12:18 AM

Richard (& Willy),

In other than FED rules, it is the Manager's prerogative to either attend the plate meeting or designate an Assistant to attend in his place:

From Rule 2.00, The Manager (b) The manager may advise the umpire that he has delegated specific duties prescribed by the rules to a player or coach, and any action of such designated representative shall be official. The manager shall always be responsible for his team’s conduct, observance of the official rules, and deference to the umpires.

So, if you insist he attend in person, you are usurping the manager's rights in violation of the rules - which strikes me as a bit overly officious.

JM

Thanks JM. I thought I had heard something along those lines. Those silly definitions again.

Richard_Siegel

12-23-2009, 12:42 AM

If you want to find ways to make you game go easier, and have better control of the games and the managers, then get them at the plate conference. If you want to let them out of it, it not a big deal. Most of the time the game will go OK. But things will eventually happen that could have been avoided if you had them at the meeting.

Brotherhood_of_Blue

12-23-2009, 01:35 AM

So, if you insist he attend in person, you are usurping the manager's rights in violation of the rules - which strikes me as a bit overly officious.

JM

JM, though I see your point here, I believe if approached properly it's not an OOO situation. As Richard points out earlier, the bigger question here is are the teams "new" to anybody on the field, that an introduction would help EVERYONE to establish who is considered who on which bench. I personally inform whomever is at the plate meeting that my partner and I consider them the teams representative (i.e. they are providing the lineup) and they will be the only ones that will be able to come onto the field to ask questions about a call made by an umpire or to address a question.

Bottom line, even according to the Defenition the manager has to "designate" someone other than himself to "handle" whatever duties he is looking to push off onto the A/C, which implies that he still has to approach you to at least tell you whom that will be. And let's face it he can't designate anyone to argue calls, since questioning judgment calls isn't allowed. :)

Just sayin ;)

Tom

Willy

12-23-2009, 06:22 AM

Although I have been hard on Rich, it's nice to have discussions such as this during the off-season.

I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas and a healthy and happy new year.

Richard_Siegel

12-23-2009, 11:41 AM

J.... I personally inform whomever is at the plate meeting that my partner and I consider them the teams representative (i.e. they are providing the lineup) and they will be the only ones that will be able to come onto the field to ask questions about a call made by an umpire or to address a question.....

Although many umpires do this, "inform whomever is at the plate meeting that they are only ones that can come onto the field to question a call," I think that this is a bad idea because it sets you up for some possible unnecessary trouble later.

Many HCs consider going to the plate meeting a waste of their time and send the least busy adult there to represent him. If the guy at the plate meeting is the least experienced AC, or worse, the team's scorekeeper, he will be unprepared for this responsibilty (being the acting HC). When push come to shove and you have a close call the real HC will want to come out to argue regardless of who went to the plate meeting. If you refuse to let him come out and insist that the guy who came to plate meeting has to come out (the scorekeeper) then you have now created a sh!thouse that was unnecessary.

Last summer I posted on this forum an example of exactly that. I wrote about an umpire buddy who told me about a situation he had. He held his plate meeting with coaches and he did not determine if the were the HC. One guy was not the HC. Later in the game he had a close call at 3B. The real HC came out to question the call. My umpire friend refused to speak with him and sent him back because he was not "the manager." "What do you mean I'm not the manager?" the real manager asked. "You didn't come to the plate meeting," the umpire told him.

The simple discussion of the play at 3B never happened because the confrontation errupted into a big rubarb about why the HC was not being allowed to come onto the field. Of course it resulted in an ejection of the guy. The ejection was my partner's fault for not checking if the coaches at the plate meeting were the HCs.

BrianC14

12-23-2009, 05:46 PM

I would not use the excuse that Jerry has to attend the meeting because "it's a requirement (FED rules) for the head coach to attend the plate meeting," That makes me look weak. I want them to do this because I told them to, not because some rule is forcing me to.

And what will you say if it is a non-FED game?

I require the HC to attend the plate meeting for ALL games I do in evey league at every level. I sends the right message.

Wait - that's what umpires DO. That's why I stated that FED coaches 'know' this (they're supposed to know it) - it's a RULE that I am enforcing. "Because I told them to" - man, that sounds like a parent getting sideways with a child.

If it weren't a requirement of FED rules, would you still insist upon the HC's presence? And what grants you the authority to insist upon that?

MCLEOD36

12-23-2009, 07:32 PM

As funny as this sounds, I have a coaches meeting prior to each game, even if it is as short as 30 seconds and I know the coaches. This tends to clean up the items such as, sliding, crashing a catcher, speeding up the game, and issues on the field. When I have not had them or not UIC, there tends to be nagging things that become problematic at times and are easily avoided. Thus, Richard makes a very valid point here. It is similar to pregames, even if short, knock that stuff out with a partner especially a new one.

Merry Christmas boys and have great Holidays and safe New Years.

John.

Richard_Siegel

12-24-2009, 04:57 PM

Wait - that's what umpires DO. That's why I stated that FED coaches 'know' this (they're supposed to know it) - it's a RULE that I am enforcing. "Because I told them to" - man, that sounds like a parent getting sideways with a child.

If it weren't a requirement of FED rules, would you still insist upon the HC's presence? And what grants you the authority to insist upon that?

Before I answer your question I am going to turn it around and ask YOU a similar question....

Sometimes during the game if you need to speak to a HC because of some problem either he of one of his players is causing you might walk up the line and call him out of the dugout to come over to you so you can speak about it. What grants you the authority to insist that he must come out and talk to you? What rule gives you the right to make him come out there to speak to you? Many guys on these forums post stories all the time how they asked a coach to come out of the dugout and have a conversation. What if he refused to come out and demanded to know what rule forces him to comply what would you say?

While you're thinking of the answer to that question, I can tell you now that whatever rule you come up with, it will be the same rule that allows me to ask the HC to attend the plate conference.

I get the feeling that some guys who have questioned this method (asking the HC to attend the plate conference) would all agree that it is better to have the HC attend the plate conference than some AC or the scorekeeper. I infer that the real disagreement is me REQUIRING the HC’s attendance at the plate conference.

We all have methods and a style of game management that we find helps us run the game better. Some umpires won’t let a base coach question a call, some don't care and respond. Some umpires won't let the manager ask for the pitch location, even if asked politely, some will answer. Some umpires will not use the HC's first name, some always do. We do what we want to do in games (within reason) to make the game go better.

Managers know that umpires all work differently and they usually accommodate the umpire’s methods so they get along better with the umpire. I get the feeling that some guys think I am this nasty ogre kicking up dirt on my way to the field ordering this and hollering that because it is “my-way of the high-way.” Nothing could be further from the truth.

I come on the field and make a point of stopping by each dugout to say hello to whomever is in there and reaffirm the starting time. I go to HP with my partner and wait for coaches to come out. Whatever “coach” come out I offer my hand to him and greet him with respect. I introduce myself and my partner. Then (if I don’t already know) I ask the person if he is the HC. If he says he is not the HC, “Jerry is,” then I will, politely, ask him to go get his HC. “Dave, would you mind asking Jerry to come to the meeting. We need the manager to be here.” If Dave says Jerry is busy, I will say, very politely, “That’s OK. We’ll wait for Jerry when he can get here.” Then we wait. It is all very courteous. No huffing and puffing. No threats. No citing of rules. No glancing at the time. No foot tapping.

If he AC asks why the manager has to come. I just say, “I do that because it reduces the chance of any misunderstandings later in the game.” Giving the real reason, (especially since not all umpires do this) instead of saying, “well…that’s the rule” makes more sense to folks and makes you seem lest authoritative. (That is from Verbal Judo, BTW)

If a coach was to demand what give me the right to make the HC come to the meeting I would say “the rules stipulate that the manager is the person responsible for communication with the umpires.” All rules codes say that. The rules give the manager the option to delegate some of his responsibilities to a coach. But this is one job he can’t delegate, as long as he is there.

This is my answer to what grants me the authority to insist upon that? Nothing. Its just a polite request to have the manager come out to represent his team. Since I have been running my plate meetings this way for the last 5 years (about 800 games) I have never had a manager refuse to come out. Nobody has ever asked for a rule cite. Nobody has ever become obnoxious about it. It’s in nobody’s interested to risk pissing off the umpire before the game starts over such a minor thing. The HCs always do it, except sometimes we have to wait a minute for a manger to come running in from the parking lot because he was stuck in traffic!

I was think about listing a few problems I had in games years ago that I can attribute directly to my failure to get the HC to the plate meeting. This was before I learned to do it at a clinic. But I think this post is long enough. I’ll save that for another day.

So Brian, what's your answer?

Willy

12-24-2009, 06:31 PM

Richard_Siegel

12-24-2009, 07:00 PM

If I felt the need to have the HC come out in order to inform him of a situation or diffuse a situation caused by himself, one of his assistants, or one of his players, I would ask that he comes out to talk. If he refuses, fine.... .

That's all I do too. I simply ask that the HC come to plate meeting. If he needs time to finish up another chore, I give it to him. If he refused (outside of FED) I'm not sure what I would. In 5 years of doing this nobody has ever refused. I guess it would depend on why he was refusing, and I would apply common sense to it.

I just don't know why you are so scared of asking a manager to come do his job and represent his team. I would think from what I read in your comments that if he refused you wouldn't care. So what's the harm in trying?

I also don't know why you keep implying that asking the HC to come to the meeting is some kind of power trip for me. It's just a way to be sure I know who the HC is and that he hears what I need to sayto him orask him comes directly from me and not thru a proxy.

I enjoy excellent respect on all the games I do. Maybe it is because the managers know very quickly from me exactly what how I plan to run the game and what I expect of them.

ump_24

12-24-2009, 07:28 PM

After much consideration and reading all of your posts, here is what I have concluded (keep in mind, this is "under" OBR):

What is wrong with asking that the HC to attend the plate meeting? It is a simple request like "can you hold that door for me?" or "could you take a little more off the top?"

Outlined are the benefits of establishing good rapport between the coaches and the crew. It should not go unmentioned that to most, we are all the same - an inconvenience in a blue (or black, cream, etc) shirt. Why not take the oppourtunity to demonstrate who we really are? When an AC represents the team at the plate meeting, when he gets back to the bench, my experience as a player and coach (who has been to plate meetings) is that nothing gets reported back to the team, unless there are unusual ground rules. If there is nothing, the fact there was even a meeting often goes unnoticed. If anyone asks, the answer as to what went on is usually "the same old stuff." If we dazzle an AC with advanced professionalism and superior intellect, who is going to notice? No one. On the other hand, if we command respect simply in the way a plate conference is held and the HC is there, it just made our jobs easier. This is a bonus that is too good to pass up. Maybe I am impartial to something like this, when (unfortunately) I know my youthful appearance can be a hinderance, and will take every oppourtunity to prove I am not just some "punk" kid.

Now on the other hand, if the HC refuses to attend the plate meeting, chances are he already thinks umpires are scum - we are not worthy of him gracing us with his presence. If he is asked and refuses to attend, consider him having delegated AC to represent him. We are aware that this is his rule-given right. A simple sentence, explaining to that AC that we still expect the HC to be the one we communicate through with the team is all that is needed before proceeding with business as usual.

Just my thoughts. No two people will handle a game in the exact same manner. Play on, McDuff.

BrianC14

12-24-2009, 07:47 PM

Before I answer your question I am going to turn it around and ask YOU a similar question....

Sometimes during the game if you need to speak to a HC because of some problem either he of one of his players is causing you might walk up the line and call him out of the dugout to come over to you so you can speak about it. What grants you the authority to insist that he must come out and talk to you?
While you're thinking of the answer to that question, I can tell you now that whatever rule you come up with, it will be the same rule that allows me to ask the HC to attend the plate conference.

I don't have to think for even a minute on that one. The only answer is "None. Zero. No authority whatsoever." And that's why I don't require it when no rule exists.

If I have problem that I think requires the HC's attention, I'll get his attention without me making him come over to where I'm standing. That's just common courtesy for me to casually and discreetly approach the HC/Manager.

But Richard, that's a far cry from insisting that the HC attend the plate conference. I've worked games where they've sent out the team captain - sort of an honorary thing. Depending on his age, I might remind said player (or AC, or whomever) to make sure the 'Boss' knows what we discussed here. But outside of a FED game, I don't insist on the top dog to be there. Now that said, 99.9999% of the game I've worked the top dog is out there.

I get the feeling that some guys who have questioned this method (asking the HC to attend the plate conference) would all agree that it is better to have the HC attend the plate conference than some AC or the scorekeeper. I infer that the real disagreement is me REQUIRING the HC’s attendance at the plate conference.
I don't disagree with that at all. It IS better to have the HC out there, absolutely. But please note that I've never said you were WRONG to require the HC's attendance. ;)

I come on the field and make a point of stopping by each dugout to say hello to whomever is in there and reaffirm the starting time. Same here. Quite often, I'll go get game balls to prep from the home team, (usually before I'm even dressed to work the game) and I make it a point to say hello to the HC of both teams. In the rare cases when the HC isn't out there, the attendee at the plate conference will explain why he's not. It's no big deal to me.

This is my answer to what grants me the authority to insist upon that? Nothing.

See? We agree. Like I said, I never said your way was wrong on this.

So Brian, what's your answer?

See above. "Nothing." This is like Seinfeld. It's a thread about nothing. :)