Umpire overruling a judgement call

[AugieDonatelli]

I have finally quit seething over this enough to talk about it here:

Saturday, I worked 2 adult games with a former (long time ago) minor league umpire, who is also a former (not long ago) college umpire.

I had the plate the first game and did my usual awesome job ;).

In the second game, I'm on the bases, I'm in C with R3, and F2 snapped a throw to 3rd to pick off R3. After a head-first slide in which R3 was clearly safe (fairly close play), there was a cloud of dust and R3 possibly lost contact with 3rd base briefly and MAY have been tagged, but I ruled him safe on the play.

Immediately, the defensive players were trying to pressure me into asking my partner, who is at home plate, for help on the play. Here is how it went from there (or words to this effect):

F5: Can you get help?

Me: No, that's my call. He's safe.

F1: We're just asking you to check with your partner. He had a good angle.

Me: Absolutely not. That's my call.

F1: No, really he wants to help.

Me: No, I'm not asking for his help.

(At this time my partner is walking out to where I'm standing pointing covertly at his chest as to tell me he has a differing opinion.)

Me to partner privately: I am not coming to you for help on this play.

Partner: I understand, but I saw him come off the base and get tagged and we just want to get the call right.

Me: But that's my call, and I'm willing to live with it if I blew the call. I'm not asking for you to take the call.

Partner: Well, I'm going to make the out call and I'll take any crap they give about it.

(At this time, partner signals "Out" and calls out R3. Offensive team comes unglued. They start ragging from the dugout. They wouldn't shut up about it, and somebody on the bench said, "Wow, that's horrible umpiring, BOTH of you." I told them to shut it down and that we won't hear any more of it. To which calls of "rabbit ears" were heard (I've never understood that one when they are SCREAMING at the top of their lungs, not whispering).

So I'm really the one taking crap for it, even though he said he would take all the crap, even though his strike zone sucked all day and they were all over him for that, plus his giving the count was so lazy and infrequent that players were complaining about it (gave 3-2 with a single closed fist and no vocal). And I hadn't missed a thing all day up until this point.

I was boiling hot over it for several innings, and when the game was over, at the car I told him that I didn't subscribe to the "get it right at all costs" philosophy on a safe/out call. I told him I didn't believe in taking someone's call without being asked. He told me that for the last 5 or 6 years they have been doing this at the college level, and that he would overrule his partner anytime he saw something different than his partner. I told him you do not do this on a judgment call on the bases, and that it undermines your partner. I also told him that this isn't college ball and we don't play under NCAA rules, we play by pro rules, and that the rule says no umpire shall seek to reverse another umpire's decision unless asked by the umpire that made the call.

I then finished changing, we said goodbye less than cordially, and both drove away.

What do you guys think about this? I think I got screwed, and I'm requesting to not work with this guy ever again. I worked with him when he was in the Texas League (briefly, he was fired and never worked pro ball again) in the 1980s when he was home on a break, and he thought he was hot shit back then too. But now he's not "all that" anymore and can barely get around the field. I outperform this guy six ways to Sunday, and I don't think it's right to undermine your partner by poaching his calls.

And I hope he's reading this, because boy, am I ever pissed!:evil:

[umpire29]

And you should be hopping mad !! He should NEVER do this. NEVER NEVER NEVER !!!

[dash_riprock]

He told me that for the last 5 or 6 years they have been doing this at the college level, and that he would overrule his partner anytime he saw something different than his partner.
Not around these parts.

[widac]

Sorry that this happened, glad you had this board to vent to/on.

[seth503]

Ugh. Sorry to hear these things even happen to the best umpires, Augie. ;)

Just goes to show: Don't trust everything you hear out of an umpire just because he worked this league, that level, this game, etc.

[BrianC14]

I have finally quit seething over this enough to talk about it here:

Saturday, I worked 2 adult games with a former (long time ago) minor league umpire, who is also a former (not long ago) college umpire.

Partner: Well, I'm going to make the out call and I'll take any crap they give about it.

(At this time, partner signals "Out" and calls out R3.

He told me that for the last 5 or 6 years they have been doing this at the college level, and that he would overrule his partner anytime he saw something different than his partner.

Now I understand why you described him as a "long time ago" and "former" .

This is why it's important to park your car as close as possible to your partner. If he ever does something like this, it'll be that much easier to roll over him several times on your way out of the parking lot.

What a putz. :razz:

[Willy]

I would have simply told him that "if I wanted him to step on my d**k, I would get it out and lay it on home plate. Otherwise, get your head out of your azz, do your own damn job, keep your opinions of my calls to yourself and only approach me if I am in need of immediate emergency care. And if it is the later, make sure I wave you in first."

If he still went with the out, I would have let the offensive team know that their only course of action would be to protest the decision of him overturning a judgement call. But by rule, if there are opposing views in a two man crew, by default it goes to the PU.

I then would have continued to work the game to the best of my ability, all the while keeping an eye out for an opertune time to "park the bus" on him.

When the game was over and we reached our vehicles, I would have soooooo publicly undressed him like a swingin' couple at a nudist beach. No need for the term of "rabbit ears" cause the whole darn community would know what was going on and would probably get a view just to get in on it.

When I get home I would let everyone, including the mailman, know what my opinions are concerning situations and former pro/college umpires such as this.

Other than that, I'd just crack open a beer and let it slide. JMTC. YMMV.

[AugieDonatelli]

But by rule, if there are opposing views in a two man crew, by default it goes to the PU.
Actually, this only applies to two simultaneous calls on the same play, when one says "safe" and the other says "out." There is no rule that justifies him doing what he did, but there is one that prohibits it. I told him about it, and it is rule 9.02 (C).

[heyblue26]

Augie talk about getting thrown under the bus this guy drover over you and then backed up. I have worked with a few guys like that and I agree with what you have said and support that. I did work with them again because I didn't know until got to the park and it was too late it all flashed back to me when I saw him . I never got even because I just chalked it up that he was a jerk anyway and that I was amuch better umpire than he would ever be. I fully understand you being pissed I would of probably asked him to stand behind my car and see if my back up lights were working and drove over him. Just kidding you did right by not asking for help and sticking by your call because it was your call and didn't have too.

[semper_fi_72]

My mouth is on the floor in shock.
In fact I have worked a few Adult Games with a new partner and part of the pre game has always been, look if we need to discuss a call because someone requests it, we can do it just to make them happy but we are not changing the call. Once a call is made we will back each other up. We will never indicate we have anything different.
Sounds like this guy is ready to be put out to pasture.

[mr umpire]

Well, I guess we figured out why he is a "former" college/minor league umpire.

[missouriump]

Big, big bus you were thrown under.

[dash_riprock]

I have worked a few Adult Games with a new partner and part of the pre game has always been, look if we need to discuss a call because someone requests it, we can do it just to make them happy but we are not changing the call. Once a call is made we will back each other up. We will never indicate we have anything different.


If I go to my partner for information, I expect to get what he saw. If circumstances warrant changing the call based on that information, I will.

I won't allow a coach to "shop" for a call, and I strive (unsuccessfully) to never need to get help, but if the situation arises, my objective is to get the call right. During our pregame, I would reject any "stick with the call no matter what" mentality proposed by my partner.

Discussing a call "just to make [the coach] happy" is not going to make him happy. Now, he is going to think two umpires missed the call instead of one.

[finnerty]

I hope this is enough validation, because, not only is it something that none of us have ever done, it's something that none of us would ever do.

I believe that this Mr. Bada$$ college and minor league umpire needs to publicly display to all that he is the superior umpire on the field, and that he is in charge. His taking over on that call was a prime example of that kind of ego-driven umpire. That kind of ego has no place, and certainly has no place in a pairing that includes me. It should have no place in a pairing that includes you, either. You care, and you have a standard that has been crafted for many seasons.

I have only blocked two partners in all the associations that I've ever worked. One was a guy who stands up at the meetings and walks to the front of the class to add his two cents to what the teacher is saying, like his lesson is of more value. I saw him umpire one of my son's games, and he would call his partner in and loudly and demonstrably school him every other inning. I went right home and blocked him.

The only other guy I ever blocked was a guy who did what your partner did.

You should be pissed! And you should block him without hesitation.

[MCLEOD36]

I find the best umpires, at any level, always do a pregame and leave their egos at the door when it comes to their partner. We have all had situations of a partner trying to either one up the other, or NOT being on the same page.

Thanks for the insights Augie, just a royal pain guys like that..... My favorite was a partner pitching to the catcher during a JV double header in between innings, then yelling hurry up on the next game, when I was on the bases. He then wanted to question a non-balk (pitcher went to his mouth, then ball then lingered) call the next day with me on 2 page emails. Oh I love those partners...

[Brotherhood_of_Blue]

Augie, I feel your pain, and all of your righteous indignation is certainly justified. This happened to me once and I can't even begin to put into words how completely hacked I was, and believe me, blocking this guy was the mildest form of punishment I had in mind! Needless to say the conversation in the umpire locker room was anything but pleasant.

[jbradbury]

This is why when I hear people on these posts tell me "I am, and I did, and I've umpired for the following big shots, so you should do everything I say, just because I say it, I think "uh-huh, now convince me why you're right". This moron could easily get on these forums, tell us he's worked Minor League and College Ball, and convince people that he's the Oracle out here.

[seth503]

This is why when I hear people on these posts tell me "I am, and I did, and I've umpired for the following big shots, so you should do everything I say, just because I say it, I think "uh-huh, now convince me why you're right". This moron could easily get on these forums, tell us he's worked Minor League and College Ball, and convince people that he's the Oracle out here.

If this guy tried to come on here and post the same nonsense he told Augie, he would be quickly called out by people on here who also have worked MiLB and college ball. I love being able to hear from umpires of all skill levels here.

[AugieDonatelli]

I was able to finally get ahold of my assigner and he agrees with all of us 100%, and will not assign me with him ever again. He couldn't believe the guy did what he did either. He and I are going to work together this weekend. He said "so you can be sure your partner won't try to overrule you.":)

[postman]

I absolutely see that he shouldn't pouch your call, interject himself into it, etc etc.

But why not ask for help if an appeal is made respectfully by a coach that the player pulled his hand/foot off the bag, etc? How is it different from being asked to confirm that firstbaseman didn't pull his foot, etc?

Isn't that different from say a bang/bang play at first base? If I made that call an out and I got an "appeal" that I made the wrong call (judgement) I would certainly tell the coach to 'pound sand'.

But if the coach says, Ump, I think he pulled his foot can you check with your partner, I would check with my partner. And, yes, that is how we were instructed to react. But we were also instructed not to help partners unless specifically asked.

I can see if you 'allow an appeal' the coach could keep harping appeals. I can see that is possible.

I am not arguing that you shouldn't be pissed at your partner. I am asking in the situation, why not ask your partner? Are you considering a pulled foot or hand a judgement, then? I also agree that if is is simply a safe or out call, I wouldn't allow an appeal.

Anyway, just thinking through it. thanks.

[Matt13]

But why not ask for help if an appeal is made respectfully by a coach that the player pulled his hand/foot off the bag, etc? How is it different from being asked to confirm that firstbaseman didn't pull his foot, etc?

The difference between the OP and a pulled foot at first is that in the OP, it is entirely BU's call. BU is going to have better distance, and at least as good of an angle. To ask for help is asking for someone with an inferior view for input.

A call at first, when BU is in A, has PU trailing up the line for this very issue. Not the case with a call at third with BU in C.

ETA: This is strictly the operational difference. I don't necessarily ask for help at first base, either, if I know I had the call and/or I know my partner has nothing to add. I can count on one hand how many times I've asked for help in 15 years. In fact, the number of times I've asked is within one of the number of times I've had a partner interject without my asking.

[AugieDonatelli]

I absolutely see that he shouldn't pouch your call, interject himself into it, etc etc.

But why not ask for help if an appeal is made respectfully by a coach that the player pulled his hand/foot off the bag, etc? How is it different from being asked to confirm that firstbaseman didn't pull his foot, etc?

Isn't that different from say a bang/bang play at first base? If I made that call an out and I got an "appeal" that I made the wrong call (judgement) I would certainly tell the coach to 'pound sand'.

But if the coach says, Ump, I think he pulled his foot can you check with your partner, I would check with my partner. And, yes, that is how we were instructed to react. But we were also instructed not to help partners unless specifically asked.

I can see if you 'allow an appeal' the coach could keep harping appeals. I can see that is possible.

I am not arguing that you shouldn't be pissed at your partner. I am asking in the situation, why not ask your partner? Are you considering a pulled foot or hand a judgement, then? I also agree that if is is simply a safe or out call, I wouldn't allow an appeal.

Anyway, just thinking through it. thanks.

The difference between the OP and a pulled foot at first is that in the OP, it is entirely BU's call. BU is going to have better distance, and at least as good of an angle. To ask for help is asking for someone with an inferior view for input.

A call at first, when BU is in A, has PU trailing up the line for this very issue. Not the case with a call at third with BU in C.

ETA: This is strictly the operational difference. I don't necessarily ask for help at first base, either, if I know I had the call and/or I know my partner has nothing to add. I can count on one hand how many times I've asked for help in 15 years. In fact, the number of times I've asked is within one of the number of times I've had a partner interject without my asking.

Another major difference that Matt did not point out is that help at first base on a swipe tag/pulled foot is supposed to be requested before a call is made by the BU, not after he's made the call. It looks just as bad to come back after a call and go run for help. If I'm not sure, I will ask for help before I make the call. I've never asked for help from A, because I'm right there and can see the play clearly and don't require help to get the call right. I've asked from the middle of the diamond, but like Matt, can count on one hand the number of times I've asked.

[mt 73]

Ok, guys, I'll say it.
Yes, your partner was wrong to overrule you.
But..I would have called time to talk with my partner and hear what he had to say. ( Naturally away from anyone's ears)
If I felt that I missed a key bit of information and was convinced that I was wrong then I would have reversed my call.
Getting the call right is EVERYTHING.
Even if it makes us look bad on occasion.

[Matt13]

Ok, guys, I'll say it.
Yes, your partner was wrong to overrule you.
But..I would have called time to talk with my partner and hear what he had to say. ( Naturally away from anyone's ears)
If I felt that I missed a key bit of information and was convinced that I was wrong then I would have reversed my call.
Getting the call right is EVERYTHING.
Even if it makes us look bad on occasion.

You don't get it, do you?

Why would you ask someone who has nothing better to add? The only thing that PU can do is give an inferior opinion which is more likely to be incorrect. So, there are two things that can happen from asking: either you realize that PU's input is useless and stick with the call, in which case why bother asking, or you take PU's advice and are more likely to get the call wrong.

And no, getting the call right is not everything.

[mt 73]

You don't get it, do you?

Why would you ask someone who has nothing better to add? The only thing that PU can do is give an inferior opinion which is more likely to be incorrect. So, there are two things that can happen from asking: either you realize that PU's input is useless and stick with the call, in which case why bother asking, or you take PU's advice and are more likely to get the call wrong.

And no, getting the call right is not everything.
No, it is you who don't get it.
From the OP:
Me: But that's my call, and I'm willing to live with it if I blew the call. I'm not asking for you to take the call.
Unless I am dead sure of the call--and from the OP I don't think he was--then I would at least hear my partner out since he may have seen something that I did not.
In other words, I am not willing to live with a blown call that could have been corrected.

"And no, getting the call right is not everything."

If this is what you believe then I am done with this thread.
The best advice I was ever given was to check your ego at the gate.
And to take the rod out of your butt.

[Matt13]

No, it is you who don't get it.
From the OP:
Me: But that's my call, and I'm willing to live with it if I blew the call. I'm not asking for you to take the call.
Unless I am dead sure of the call--and from the OP I don't think he was--then I would at least hear my partner out since he may have seen something that I did not.
In other words, I am not willing to live with a blown call that could have been corrected.

"And no, getting the call right is not everything."

If this is what you believe then I am done with this thread.
The best advice I was ever given was to check your ego at the gate.
And to take the rod out of your butt.

I'm glad you are done with this thread.

[finnerty]

No, it is you who don't get it.
From the OP:
Me: But that's my call, and I'm willing to live with it if I blew the call. I'm not asking for you to take the call.
Unless I am dead sure of the call--and from the OP I don't think he was--then I would at least hear my partner out since he may have seen something that I did not.
In other words, I am not willing to live with a blown call that could have been corrected.

"And no, getting the call right is not everything."

If this is what you believe then I am done with this thread.
The best advice I was ever given was to check your ego at the gate.
And to take the rod out of your butt.
Why do you fail to comprehend that the BU doesn't ask for help on a steal call of third from the PU?

That's all! We don't ask on that. So that's what's more important than getting it right in this particular case.

Doing it right is important, too. And Augie's partner did it way wrong.

[mt 73]

So if the PU saw the 3rd baseman drop the ball he should not try to get the BU's attention if he calls him out?
Look, I understand that another umpire should NEVER overrule another--in fact it states just that in the rulebook.
But if my partner wants to call me over to discuss something then I am going to hear him out away from prying ears.

[seth503]

So if the PU saw the 3rd baseman drop the ball he should not try to get the BU's attention if he calls him out?


No, if the PU was any good he would wait for the BU to come over if the BU feels the need to do so.

[mt 73]

If I was the PU I would give a subtle signal--arms crossed--and see if the BU wants to talk.
If not then I would let it lie.

[cajunyankee]

If you were to make a 'Subtle Signal' to me while working the plate, I'd give you a 'Subtle Signal' right back.

If you think that coaches and players won't pick up your little signals, and use them against you, you're mistaken.

By the way, my subtle signal might not be that subtle.

[bobjenkins]

So if the PU saw the 3rd baseman drop the ball he should not try to get the BU's attention if he calls him out?

That's a completely different play than the one being discussed.

[cajunyankee]

[quote=mt 73;97194]So if the PU saw the 3rd baseman drop the ball he should not try to get the BU's attention if he calls him out?

HELL NO. Period.

[AugieDonatelli]

So if the PU saw the 3rd baseman drop the ball he should not try to get the BU's attention if he calls him out?
Look, I understand that another umpire should NEVER overrule another--in fact it states just that in the rulebook.
But if my partner wants to call me over to discuss something then I am going to hear him out away from prying ears.

Pretty glad I don't have to work with you if you would offer unsolicited information. I feel bad for anyone who has to work with someone who would come to them without being asked on judgment calls. Would you want the base umpire to tell you when he thought you missed a ball/strike call. "Time. Wait a minute, that was a ball, not a strike!" That would get you really far.:rolleyes:

[BrianC14]

If you were to make a 'Subtle Signal' to me while working the plate, I'd give you a 'Subtle Signal' right back.

If you think that coaches and players won't pick up your little signals, and use them against you, you're mistaken.

By the way, my subtle signal might not be that subtle.


ROFLMAOPMP..... that's a great mental image .... :D

In the Navy, our "subtle signals" usually involoved the acronym FOAD. :) Still ROFL

[semper_fi_72]

If I was the PU I would give a subtle signal--arms crossed--and see if the BU wants to talk.
If not then I would let it lie.

All I can say about your subtle signal is your signal and you is FUBAR :rolleyes:

[AugieDonatelli]

All I would add to that, from an Army point of view, is that the SNAFU.

[cajunyankee]

Ex-Navy here. I understand FOAD clearly.

My favorite was always:

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot: Over..


This would be my response to the 'folded arms' signal from my partner.

WTF Over?

[BrianC14]

Ex-Navy here. I understand FOAD clearly.

My favorite was always:

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot: Over..


This would be my response to the 'folded arms' signal from my partner.

WTF Over?


Now Whiskey Tango Foxtrot would be a good on-field response to an OOO partner.

FOAD could probably wait until the impending head-pounding in the parking lot. ;)

[nwaump]

Dang, FOAD and WTFO, am I back on my last tin can.

Augie, tell us how you really feel about that sit or should I have added an h in that word....I work with an ex minor league umpire and know several college level umpires. And I know sure as heck that none of them would pull a stupid stunt like that. And if any of my partners do that we would have one heated post game in the parking lot.

[cajunyankee]

Augie's my hero I'm telling you.;)

[jomatiky]

When I do a game with an official I think was bad, I make sure both mgrs know my name before I leave the field. We are evaluated separately in my area. I have had guys call a strike and than ask me if he went. It's amazing how many umpires don't know the basic rules like infield fly rule or tagging up.

[AugieDonatelli]

The people in this league don't give a shit who the umpire is, so giving them my name would probably not impress them much. They don't give evals in this league anyway.

I never said the guy was a bad umpire, it's just that he stepped on my call without being asked, plain and simple.

[mcmahm34]

I hope you didn't hurt the knife he put in your back.

[homedas73]

Two things personally I would have done different and in our association we actually preach it. Generally, even on judgment calls, if we are asked (politely and correctly), we will get together with our partner to see if he/she had a different perspective. Then leave it to the umpire who made the call to (potentially) change it. Now whether that umpire wants to change the call, it is entirely up to him. If you were asked properly, by a player, coach to ask for help. Why not get help? Even if it appears that you are getting help, heck you might talk about where you are going for dinner later, but it still gives the impression that you are "approachable" and willing to listen to a different opinion. I wouldn't even have a debate with another player or coach over the call, either you decide to get with your partner or you don't. It's your call. Now as far as your partner just changing the call for you without your permission is just plain JACKASS. You should have changed your call, IF YOU CHOSE TO. Just a thought....but I feel your pain when working with a back stabbing partner. It makes you both look like you don't know what your doing and it opens a can of worms.....

[ump_24]

Necroposter!

Nearly every umpire on the face of the Earth has their individual circumstances and rules for when and when to not ask for help from a partner, however, any serious umpire will laugh at you for your suggestion that you should go for help anytime you are asked properly and politely. That is just ridiculous. Sorry, but its the absolute truth.

Disagreement with an umpire's call is not justification for asking, let alone expecting, for him to go seek out help. That would be the dictionary definition of the tail wagging the dog.

I'm sorry to say, but this softness by your association is wrong, and is the reason the rest of us have to put up with constant requests to ask for help, even if the other guy is on the other side of the field completely immersed in his own responsibility.

[mr umpire]

Two things personally I would have done different and in our association we actually preach it. Generally, even on judgment calls, if we are asked (politely and correctly), we will get together with our partner to see if he/she had a different perspective. Then leave it to the umpire who made the call to (potentially) change it. Now whether that umpire wants to change the call, it is entirely up to him. If you were asked properly, by a player, coach to ask for help. Why not get help? Even if it appears that you are getting help, heck you might talk about where you are going for dinner later, but it still gives the impression that you are "approachable" and willing to listen to a different opinion....
I agree with Ump 24. There is no need to give the appearance of help in a situation where it can not be given or asked for. Each umpire has their own responsibility and should own up to it no matter who it upsets.

A pulled foot where the umpire is not sure b/c the player came straight at him. Fine, get help. But, a tag play where the umpire is right on top of the play or a fly ball where the umpire calling it has the best angle makes the call. Or, whether a runner beat the throw back to a base after a catch. Don't ask for help no matter how polite they are. I don't care if their argument is that they think the fielder bobbled the ball or trapped it. The umpire making the call should have the best angle and his judgment is all that counts.

In many situations, he is the only umpire who sees the entire play b/c the other(s) have their responsibilities depending upon what happens. Make your own calls and don't pass the buck. Or, give the appearance of being "approachable". Any descent coach knows he can approach an umpire and get a ruling or ask for help. Let them figure out when they should. If they don't figure it out, then they won't make a very good coach.

[widac]

Necroposter!LOL and LOL

[wjr953]

Augie,
I have to totally agree with your point of view on this one and your reaction. When I work with anyone, we usually discuss this issue specifically, re: asking for help or as you referred to it when the coach is "shopping for the call". If my partner makes a call and he doesn't want to ask for help, he owns the call and that's that. On the other hand, I do think that we all want to get the call right. There is a right way and a wrong way to do this without sacrificing your partner, which is what this tube steak did to you. The only time that I would even consider asking for help is if I was screened or had a bad angle on a call (we all know this should never happen, but in reality it does happen on occasion, no matter how hard we try). In other words, only in extremely rare cases where my partner or I might not be 100% comfortable that we got a good look at a play, then and only then (if prompted by a polite request from the HC) will we have a private conference about it. Basically it's "what did you have, this is what I had". If my partner made the call in question, even if I did clearly see that he missed it, I would not overrule him unless he felt completely comfortable with changing the call. If he wants to live with the call he made right or wrong, then we live with it, play on. There's no way that I would ever chuck him under the bus for any reason. The guy that did this to you should never have done what he did, there's just no good reason ever to undermine your partner like that under any circumstances. I would much rather walk off a ball field leaving the coach pissed off, than having a partner who doesn't trust me and doesn't ever want to work with me again. My partner is the only friend that I have on that field, and there's no way that I'm ever going to compromise his credibility on the field.

(6)

[ump_24]

I say again:

Necroposter!

:rolleyes:

[polar1955]

Sounds to me like the guy has an ego, I will show you a thing or two......I was a minor league/college ump and therefor this baseball is beneath me and as such I have no problem treating it like that!

Thats what I am reading from this .....

I too would be pissed at him, you cannot have two captains giving conflicting orders, makes for a disaster.

In fact, anytime a coach confronts me asking that I ask for help is a slap in the face. I know when I nn assistance and don't nn a coach to remind/tell me when and where to get it.

[catoblue]

FOAD goes to Mr "used-to-be". What a TOOL!!!!

As for the "when to ask for help" question... the answer is simple, you ask when you think you need help, which should be a very rare occurrence. Not every time a coach or player requests you to ask - no matter how politely.