ALCS Game 4

[ump_24]

Mr McClelland has some explaining to do. This should be an interesting press conference post game...

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand cue Augie's rant :p

[semper_fi_72]

Mr McClelland has some explaining to do. This should be an interesting press conference post game...

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand cue Augie's rant :p

At least it did not wind up costing the Angels.
I am just very disappointed by the number of blown calls occuring in the Post Season.
It is as if the Crews this year are helping to sell the use of Instant Replay.
Do like football....Throw your flag and challenge the call. If you lose all runners advance two bases.......lol. Limit to two challenges per game.

[mazzamouth]

yea that one was bad...

[AugieDonatelli]

You can check out my rants over here:

http://forum.officiating.com/baseball/

[kyle_jt]

Are you talking about the blown tag-up play? Or how about on Tuesday nights only, you're not out if you get tagged by the ball if you're off the bag?

Those make that missed tag call at second look absolutely brilliant! (How was that missed?! I mean, he was looking right THERE!)

[bigbird69]

The only reason I didn't dwell on the fact that McClelland totally kicked the appeal (with replays clearly showing that not only did he not leave early, but that McClelland was not even watching the runner) was because his partner just as badly blew the call at second, which if done correctly would have already had Swisher on the bench with an out. Still, Two wrongs don't make it right... it just makes the crew look twice as bad...

[BrianC14]

Found vids here:

http://losangeles.angels.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=7078609&topic_id=7221926&c_id=ana

Pretty ugly stuff... esp. the weird play at third, with 2 runners there... yikes.

[thunderheads]

Ouch!!!!!

I can almost see how McClelland wasn't watching the fact the Cano wasn't on the bag,...why would Cano be OFF the bag, right? :) So, he's watching the tag on Posada, when he's watching that, he misses that Cano's off the bag......NOT DEFENDING HIM, just saying...that's probably why it was missed.

The tag-up play w/ Swisher .....ouch again!

The SAFE call by Dale Scott on Swisher at second .....OUCH AGAIN!!! How is that one missed ???

Every night in every game,...something stupid .........

[midwayll]

Maybe it's time for some of the old guard to retire. McClelland looked lazy. He was out of position, not even hustling to try to get into position. He looked like someone who has been doing this a very long time and simply could care less at this point. I hope that's not how he feels, but it is the way he looks and appearances are everything.

He never even looked at Swisher on the tag up and was too close to the bag anyway. And he never moved into position on the run down play. And how Scott missed the call at 2B I'll never know. I saw it real time just watching the TV. But if he missed it, he did the right thing by calling Swisher safe. Don't call someone out if you didn't see the out. McClelland did the exact opposite on the tag up. He never saw it but called the out anyway. Terrible umpiring that cannot be defended.

These playoffs, and not just last night's game, have simply reinforced why people hate umpires so much. Of course, most of this hate is simply not justified, and most calls get called correctly. But these kinds of egregious errors are all anybody remembers.

Instant replay is a bad idea. But maybe getting new, hungry guys who hustle isn't.

[BrianC14]

Ouch!!!!!

I can almost see how McClelland wasn't watching the fact the Cano wasn't on the bag,...why would Cano be OFF the bag, right? :) So, he's watching the tag on Posada, when he's watching that, he misses that Cano's off the bag......NOT DEFENDING HIM, just saying...that's probably why it was missed.

The tag-up play w/ Swisher .....ouch again!

The SAFE call by Dale Scott on Swisher at second .....OUCH AGAIN!!! How is that one missed ???

Every night in every game,...something stupid .........

The thing is, it would only matter if Cano were on the bag with Posada - he'd be out because he's occupying the same base as the preceding runner, so he's out. Calling Posada out was correct, since he's off the bag - - the catcher did it right, by tagging Cano first, then Posada. But as it happened, both runners were off the base, and both runners should be out. {edited to add] TM thought Cano was on the bag... but he appeared to be straightlined with Posada, so he couldn't have seen that he wasn't...

[Rich_Ives]

The thing is, it wouldn't matter if Cano were on the bag or off - he's out because he's attempting to occupy the same base as the preceding runner, so he's out regardless.



Cano would be out ONLY if BOTH runners were touching the base when tagged. If he was on and Posada off then he would NOT be out if tagged.

[widac]

he's out because he's attempting to occupy the same base as the preceding runner, so he's out regardless. (uh, what? First, I've never heard of someone being called out just for "attempting to occupy the same base as the preceding runner", second, Posada wasn't on the base so why shouldn't Cano touch it?

[BrianC14]

You're missing the point that he wasn't touching the base, thus my statment of "REGARDLESS". And if he had been, that base belongs to the preceding runner - - Posada had overrun it in the opposite direction - the base belongs to R3 in that sitch, not R2. McLellan poked on the pooch on it, period.

[bigblu2u2]

Tim made no attempt to even move his view around Pasoda. He needed to move to get a better angle on the 1st tag as the catcher was coming up the line,which he didn't bother to do. He just stood there. He has a tendency to appear lazy, and I do not ask new umpires to mimic his mechanics. It was like the call in San Diego in the NLCS several years ago that ended the game at the plate. Right or wrong, he appears to nonchalant.
On the tag up, we all know that he needed to get further towards the plate so he has a better view of the tag up and the catch.
I am not blasting Tim, he is a good umpire, but he is not a great example, and he made 2 calls at 3rd in 6 man that personifies that. He lost his great umpire status in last nights game as far as I am concerned.

[BrianC14]

Tim made no attempt to even move his view around Pasoda. He needed to move to get a better angle on the 1st tag as the catcher was coming up the line,which he didn't bother to do. He just stood there. He has a tendency to appear lazy, and I do not ask new umpires to mimic his mechanics. It was like the call in San Diego in the NLCS several years ago that ended the game at the plate. Right or wrong, he appears to nonchalant.
On the tag up, we all know that he needed to get further towards the plate so he has a better view of the tag up and the catch.
I am not blasting Tim, he is a good umpire, but he is not a great example, and he made 2 calls at 3rd in 6 man that personifies that. He lost his great umpire status in last nights game as far as I am concerned.

Agreed. (and where have you been lately, by the way..?)

I keep looking at that tagup play... man! He's right on top of the bag! 8O

[ump_24]

But maybe getting new, hungry guys who hustle isn't.

A good point. But here in lies the problem:

New umpires to a league are often tested by a manager. They work ridiculously hard and do all the little things right, but they still find themselves in a high number of confrontations because the thought is, literally, "who is this kid?" Then insert the cocky "I've forgotten about baseball than this guy will ever know" or something along these lines. Most of the time, something like this goes down.

Now, take on the otherhand the savy veteran umpire.

He's been at it a while, has earned the respect of everyone, and almost never has to eject someone because people respect his opinion. His body wears down, and he knows that he will not immediately have to face the music. He's had a high success rate over the years, so he figures if he can meet a minimum of work with a maximum of good calls, he will.

Tim has been extremely laxidasical in recent years, but has always had an extremely high percentage of correct calls. Perhaps this massive, massive embarassment will finally wake him up. Some things you just don't see, despite your best efforts. Example - Dale Scott. I am a fan of his work, and felt bad for him when he missed that call at 2B.

Also, food for thought, I'm not so sure there are an increased number of playoff missed calls. Instead, however, perhaps with our increasingly technological age, and growing focus on the game and instant reply, incorrect calls are being dissected more and more, and opposed to a missed call in the regular season, that would be replayed maybe once on TV, not coming to the attention of the world.

I have no evidence to back this up, just a general theory.

[Rich_Ives]

You're missing the point that he wasn't touching the base, thus my statment of "REGARDLESS". And if he had been, that base belongs to the preceding runner - - Posada had overrun it in the opposite direction - the base belongs to R3 in that sitch, not R2. McLellan poked on the pooch on it, period.

If Cano was touching the base and Posada was not, then Cano would NOT be out when tagged. He would only be out if BOTH runners were touching the base and he was tagged.

[BrianC14]

If Cano was touching the base and Posada was not, then Cano would NOT be out when tagged. He would only be out if BOTH runners were touching the base and he was tagged.

Really? Wow, that's fascinating! :rolleyes:

[Lawrence_Dorsey]

I posted this on another board....
________________
THE WORST CALL EVER

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq240/SanDiegoSteve/McClelland_sucking.jpg


I am going to defend Tim a little here. I definitely think he got the play wrong and won't argue that. I also won't argue that a step or two of hustle may have let him see the play. With that said, here are my comments.

The picture that SDS shows in my opinion oversimplifies what happened in the play. Both Cano and Posada were moving simultaneously. Tim is focused on Posada because it is obvious the Angels want to get him out first. As Posada is tagged he and Mike Napoli are both between Tim Cano. In the replay shot from behind 3B and you can clearly see this. Cano is not on the bag when he is tagged but it is possible that Posada and Napoli blocked Tim out. When Posada and Napoli clear out, Cano is standing on the bag. I also think Tim wouldn't even guess that a runner would stop 2 feet from the bag and just stand there. Why Cano did this is still unexplainable to me.

Had Tim adjusted prior to the play, he may have had a better angle on Cano but gotten straight lined on Posada. In real time the tags happended very fast so I doubt he could put much thought into what angle would give him the best position for both runners. Might have done better, maybe not.

My beef in this play is what happened to Jerry Layne? I am assuming he trailed the play at least a few feet up the 3B line. He should have had a good look at Cano off the bag and could have offered help. From the plate looking up the 3rd baseline, this is an easy call with no one in the way.

I still don't know why he called Swisher out for leaving early. He never even looked at Swisher and should have gotten a far better angle to line up the tag and catch.

[ump_24]

Lawrence,

Points well made. However, the bottom line here is that we had a severely missed call resulting from, quite frankly, laziness. Tim has done something right to garner the amount of respect he has in baseball today, however I'm sure that multiple people on this thread would've made the necessary movements to get this call right. Even the best make mistakes (Dale Scott) but there is absolutely no skill required to hustle and get into position (Tim Mac x 2).

One thing I meant to point out earlier: I thought there was MLB policy disallowing the showing of instant reply on park scoreboards following a controversial call. Clearly that wasn't the case last night, when you heard the reaction of the crowd.

As for Jerry Lane, let me put it this way: would you want to be the one to overturn Tim McClelland from 80+ feet away? As I said earlier, he has the respect of many, many, many people in MLB, for a reason. We've seen it all in instant replay, which as we know over simplifies marginal elements; imagine having a distant look at that play in real time!

[Willy]

I posted this in reply to this on another board ...


I posted this on another board....
________________



I am going to defend Tim a little here. I definitely think he got the play wrong and won't argue that. I also won't argue that a step or two of hustle may have let him see the play. With that said, here are my comments.

The picture that SDS shows in my opinion oversimplifies what happened in the play. Both Cano and Posada were moving simultaneously. Tim is focused on Posada because it is obvious the Angels want to get him out first. As Posada is tagged he and Mike Napoli are both between Tim Cano. In the replay shot from behind 3B and you can clearly see this. Cano is not on the bag when he is tagged but it is possible that Posada and Napoli blocked Tim out. When Posada and Napoli clear out, Cano is standing on the bag. I also think Tim wouldn't even guess that a runner would stop 2 feet from the bag and just stand there. Why Cano did this is still unexplainable to me.

Had Tim adjusted prior to the play, he may have had a better angle on Cano but gotten straight lined on Posada. In real time the tags happended very fast so I doubt he could put much thought into what angle would give him the best position for both runners. Might have done better, maybe not.

My beef in this play is what happened to Jerry Layne? I am assuming he trailed the play at least a few feet up the 3B line. He should have had a good look at Cano off the bag and could have offered help. From the plate looking up the 3rd baseline, this is an easy call with no one in the way.

I still don't know why he called Swisher out for leaving early. He never even looked at Swisher and should have gotten a far better angle to line up the tag and catch.


blah blah blah

[BrianC14]

I posted this on another board....
________________



I am going to defend Tim a little here. I definitely think he got the play wrong and won't argue that. I also won't argue that a step or two of hustle may have let him see the play. With that said, here are my comments.

The picture that SDS shows in my opinion oversimplifies what happened in the play. Both Cano and Posada were moving simultaneously. Tim is focused on Posada because it is obvious the Angels want to get him out first. As Posada is tagged he and Mike Napoli are both between Tim Cano. In the replay shot from behind 3B and you can clearly see this. Cano is not on the bag when he is tagged but it is possible that Posada and Napoli blocked Tim out. When Posada and Napoli clear out, Cano is standing on the bag. I also think Tim wouldn't even guess that a runner would stop 2 feet from the bag and just stand there. Why Cano did this is still unexplainable to me.

Had Tim adjusted prior to the play, he may have had a better angle on Cano but gotten straight lined on Posada. In real time the tags happended very fast so I doubt he could put much thought into what angle would give him the best position for both runners. Might have done better, maybe not.

My beef in this play is what happened to Jerry Layne? I am assuming he trailed the play at least a few feet up the 3B line. He should have had a good look at Cano off the bag and could have offered help. From the plate looking up the 3rd baseline, this is an easy call with no one in the way.

I still don't know why he called Swisher out for leaving early. He never even looked at Swisher and should have gotten a far better angle to line up the tag and catch.

Layne was likely waiting to be asked. Plate umpire could have been asked as well. Plenty of help out there, with no request for help.

[AugieDonatelli]

I posted this on another board....
________________



I am going to defend Tim a little here. I definitely think he got the play wrong and won't argue that. I also won't argue that a step or two of hustle may have let him see the play. With that said, here are my comments.

The picture that SDS shows in my opinion oversimplifies what happened in the play. Both Cano and Posada were moving simultaneously. Tim is focused on Posada because it is obvious the Angels want to get him out first. As Posada is tagged he and Mike Napoli are both between Tim Cano. In the replay shot from behind 3B and you can clearly see this. Cano is not on the bag when he is tagged but it is possible that Posada and Napoli blocked Tim out. When Posada and Napoli clear out, Cano is standing on the bag. I also think Tim wouldn't even guess that a runner would stop 2 feet from the bag and just stand there. Why Cano did this is still unexplainable to me.

Had Tim adjusted prior to the play, he may have had a better angle on Cano but gotten straight lined on Posada. In real time the tags happended very fast so I doubt he could put much thought into what angle would give him the best position for both runners. Might have done better, maybe not.

My beef in this play is what happened to Jerry Layne? I am assuming he trailed the play at least a few feet up the 3B line. He should have had a good look at Cano off the bag and could have offered help. From the plate looking up the 3rd baseline, this is an easy call with no one in the way.

I still don't know why he called Swisher out for leaving early. He never even looked at Swisher and should have gotten a far better angle to line up the tag and catch.

I think SanDiegoSteve got it right!:rolleyes::D

[lustersilk]

One thing I meant to point out earlier: I thought there was MLB policy disallowing the showing of instant reply on park scoreboards following a controversial call. Clearly that wasn't the case last night, when you heard the reaction of the crowd.

I was at this game. They did not show any replay on the score boards. They have the televised broadcast going on hundreds of TV's throughout the stadium though. In the concourses, private suites, etc.

[bigblue2u]

Here are Tim's comments to the Des Moines Register:

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20091021/SPORTS/91021044/1003

[Rich_Ives]

Really? Wow, that's fascinating! :rolleyes:

And perhaps youy can explain why you think it's not true.

7.03
(a) Two runners may not occupy a base, but if, while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged and the preceding runner is entitled to the base,


SDS has the same ruling on another board - and it's why McClelland didn't call Cano out - because he thought Cano was touching the base.

[thunderheads]

Here are Tim's comments to the Des Moines Register:

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20091021/SPORTS/91021044/1003

NICE!! Thanks for this link ....

I feel bad for Tim, he's obviously taking it hard. Looks like he's confirmed what some have already said , i.e.; Posada blocking his view ....and I also like how he said,..."reason, not an excuse"...

[midwayll]

Brian,

Here is the quote that is confusing to me (and widac and Rich and probably others). This is from you, post #10 in this thread:

The thing is, it wouldn't matter if Cano were on the bag or off - he's out because he's attempting to occupy the same base as the preceding runner, so he's out regardless. Calling Posada out is correct, since he's off the bag - - the catcher did it right, by tagging Cano first, then Posada. But as it happened, both runners were off the base, and both runners should be out. Positioning was pretty bad, he appeared to be straightlined with Posada.

In this case, two mistakes were made on the same play. :(

It DOES matter if Cano was on the bag or not. Cano is NOT out regardless. I know you know this so I am assuming you worded your post incorrectly. Cano would only be out if both runners were on the bag at the same time and a fielder tagged him. Cano was not on the bag which means Posada could have stayed on the bag and Cano could have returned to 2B or gotten in a rundown himself (possibly thus allowing Posada to score) or been tagged out. Once Posada overran the bag Cano could have been on the bag and Posada would be the only one out once he is tagged.

What I, and others, are confused about is why you state Cano is out REGARDLESS because he isn't.

If I am missing something, or misunderstanding your post, it would be helpful if you could explain. Thanks.

[heyblue26]

I posted this on another board....
________________



I am going to defend Tim a little here. I definitely think he got the play wrong and won't argue that. I also won't argue that a step or two of hustle may have let him see the play. With that said, here are my comments.

The picture that SDS shows in my opinion oversimplifies what happened in the play. Both Cano and Posada were moving simultaneously. Tim is focused on Posada because it is obvious the Angels want to get him out first. As Posada is tagged he and Mike Napoli are both between Tim Cano. In the replay shot from behind 3B and you can clearly see this. Cano is not on the bag when he is tagged but it is possible that Posada and Napoli blocked Tim out. When Posada and Napoli clear out, Cano is standing on the bag. I also think Tim wouldn't even guess that a runner would stop 2 feet from the bag and just stand there. Why Cano did this is still unexplainable to me.

Had Tim adjusted prior to the play, he may have had a better angle on Cano but gotten straight lined on Posada. In real time the tags happended very fast so I doubt he could put much thought into what angle would give him the best position for both runners. Might have done better, maybe not.

My beef in this play is what happened to Jerry Layne? I am assuming he trailed the play at least a few feet up the 3B line. He should have had a good look at Cano off the bag and could have offered help. From the plate looking up the 3rd baseline, this is an easy call with no one in the way.

I still don't know why he called Swisher out for leaving early. He never even looked at Swisher and should have gotten a far better angle to line up the tag and catch.

Really good points are brought out and great reading and nice picture. but haven't we all had bad days that we would like to start over. I know I have. Thanks

[midwayll]

I think SanDiegoSteve got it right!:rolleyes::D

LOL! :p ;)

[mazzamouth]

The thing is, it wouldn't matter if Cano were on the bag or off - he's out because he's attempting to occupy the same base as the preceding runner, so he's out regardless. Calling Posada out is correct, since he's off the bag - - the catcher did it right, by tagging Cano first, then Posada. But as it happened, both runners were off the base, and both runners should be out. Positioning was pretty bad, he appeared to be straightlined with Posada.

In this case, two mistakes were made on the same play. :(

Brian.. Cano would only be out if they tagged both runners while standing on the base... then the following runner would be called out, but only if they were both tagged..

[MCLEOD36]

Guys,
There were a couple of bad calls, keep in mind, the 20 or so cameras will get all angles. It is like that Kzone, lets see 5 1/2 hour games and what? 500 pitches, and you get to miss none? I think not...

[finnerty]

I was at this game. They did not show any replay on the score boards. They have the televised broadcast going on hundreds of TV's throughout the stadium though. In the concourses, private suites, etc.

My son watches games live on his iphone right in the stands, just to see pitch location and other calls. At several hundred dollars a pop for each seat, I would guess that there are a healthy number of iphone owners among that contingent.

[finnerty]

NICE!! Thanks for this link ....

I feel bad for Tim, he's obviously taking it hard. Looks like he's confirmed what some have already said , i.e.; Posada blocking his view ....and I also like how he said,..."reason, not an excuse"...

I would feel sorry if it was a regular season game with little or nothing at stake. This game was important, and McClelland should either A) Not be out there in important games, or B) MAKE A EFFING EFFORT!!

He's a professional for crying out loud! It's a good thing his lazy, uninspired blown call didn't end a team's season like his last one in Colorado.

[BrianC14]

Mea culpa. :oops:

I just re-read my earlier post.... sheesh. It was a pretty pathetic piece of work. I didn't realize what all the fuss was about until I read it again... and again. Now I get it.

To quote George Costanza, "No, I'm sorry, the word is 'Moops'."

I've edited it - significantly. Yes, we all know the rule about 2 guys on the base.

Sorry, sorry. Hey, if I'm as "bad" as Tim McLelland, I'm doing pretty damn good. :)

[midwayll]

Guys,
There were a couple of bad calls, keep in mind, the 20 or so cameras will get all angles. It is like that Kzone, lets see 5 1/2 hour games and what? 500 pitches, and you get to miss none? I think not...

These weren't bang-bang close plays that the stupid TV cameras have to freeze frame to prove the ump wrong. If the TV cameras have to do that, the ump did just fine.

However, these were blown calls by a senior ump who was lazy and out of position (on both blown calls at 3B). No excuses.

[midwayll]

That's cool, Brian. I knew it had to be something as simple as miswording (is that a word?) a post.

As long as you don't "pull a McClelland" next time you are U3 :D

[BrianC14]

These weren't bang-bang close plays that the stupid TV cameras have to freeze frame to prove the ump wrong. If the TV cameras have to do that, the ump did just fine.

However, these were blown calls by a senior ump who was lazy and out of position (on both blown calls at 3B). No excuses.

I was discussing the tag-up play with my older brother, who works games in Connecticut.

He brought up an interesting point, and I wonder if there's enough video to show what might have happened: - what was TM's movement just as the ball was hit?

Is it conceivable/possible that Tim M's first reaction to the fly ball to left-center was to start to go out on the ball - e.g., he's thinking he's in a 4-man crew, rather than the 6? In doing so, he takes a couple/three steps toward the outfield, and then realizes 'crap, that's not my spot or call', and retreats to where he can at least see Swisher coming back to tag up?

Even with that, I have to wonder why he wouldn't have busted his rump to get back farther down the line toward home - AND farther in foul territory - to line it all up? In the video I've seen, he's just sort of strolling backwards; what's telling, though, is he keeps moving backward a few steps AFTER Swisher left the bag. And of course, the obvious, he's not able to see both the foot on the bag & touch of the ball, as he appears to be relying on his peripheral vision to see the foot.

Thoughts?

[BrianC14]

That's cool, Brian. I knew it had to be something as simple as miswording (is that a word?) a post.

As long as you don't "pull a McClelland" next time you are U3 :D

"Miswording"... that's being kind. I think it was closer to my suffering from "internal cranial thrombosis" - which is a medical term to explain that a person's head is so far up his ass that his heart is beating the shit out of his brains. ;)

After I re-read that post, I kept asking myself, "Did I write that? Holy bathtub gin, Batman - was I drunk when I did?" :(

[midwayll]

I was discussing the tag-up play with my older brother, who works games in Connecticut.

He brought up an interesting point, and I wonder if there's enough video to show what might have happened: - what was TM's movement just as the ball was hit?

Is it conceivable/possible that Tim M's first reaction to the fly ball to left-center was to start to go out on the ball - e.g., he's thinking he's in a 4-man crew, rather than the 6? In doing so, he takes a couple/three steps toward the outfield, and then realizes 'crap, that's not my spot or call', and retreats to where he can at least see Swisher coming back to tag up?

Even with that, I have to wonder why he wouldn't have busted his rump to get back farther down the line toward home - AND farther in foul territory - to line it all up? In the video I've seen, he's just sort of strolling backwards; what's telling, though, is he keeps moving backward a few steps AFTER Swisher left the bag. And of course, the obvious, he's not able to see both the foot on the bag & touch of the ball, as he appears to be relying on his peripheral vision to see the foot.

Thoughts?

Wouldn't the responsiblity on a fly ball to left-center be U2? I have to admit that I don't know much about 4 man mechanics. My association only uses it during playoffs. I was in a 4 man crew twice this past season, once as U1 and once a PU. But I seem to remember that when the 4 of us discussed our responsibilities before the games that U2 had anything from LF to RF. U1 covered if the ball was heading toward the foul line in RF. Likewise, U3 covered if the ball was heading toward the foul line in LF.

If I have this correct, certainly TM wasn't so mixed up that he forgot he was U3 and not U2? If so, it really is time for him to retire.

He was so out of position I honestly don't know what to think. He certainly had a major brain fart. But you never call something because you "believe it in my heart." You only call something if you see it.

I am glad that none of these calls adversely impacted the outcome of the game. And I hope TM hustles more in tonight's game since he is U2. I would hate to see him caught out of position on a potential steal.

[BrianC14]

Wouldn't the responsiblity on a fly ball to left-center be U2? I have to admit that I don't know much about 4 man mechanics. My association only uses it during playoffs. I was in a 4 man crew twice this past season, once as U1 and once a PU. But I seem to remember that when the 4 of us discussed our responsibilities before the games that U2 had anything from LF to RF. U1 covered if the ball was heading toward the foul line in RF. Likewise, U3 covered if the ball was heading toward the foul line in LF.

If I have this correct, certainly TM wasn't so mixed up that he forgot he was U3 and not U2? If so, it really is time for him to retire.

He was so out of position I honestly don't know what to think. He certainly had a major brain fart. But you never call something because you "believe it in my heart." You only call something if you see it.

I am glad that none of these calls adversely impacted the outcome of the game. And I hope TM hustles more in tonight's game since he is U2. I would hate to see him caught out of position on a potential steal.

I believe that in 4-man, U2 would have F8 coming straight in or straight back... I suppose he might have thought F8 was moving toward him, so...
... it's just a thought... would be interesting to see if his initial movements could be seen on video.

[mazzamouth]

Wouldn't the responsiblity on a fly ball to left-center be U2? I have to admit that I don't know much about 4 man mechanics. My association only uses it during playoffs. I was in a 4 man crew twice this past season, once as U1 and once a PU. But I seem to remember that when the 4 of us discussed our responsibilities before the games that U2 had anything from LF to RF. U1 covered if the ball was heading toward the foul line in RF. Likewise, U3 covered if the ball was heading toward the foul line in LF.

If I have this correct, certainly TM wasn't so mixed up that he forgot he was U3 and not U2? If so, it really is time for him to retire.

He was so out of position I honestly don't know what to think. He certainly had a major brain fart. But you never call something because you "believe it in my heart." You only call something if you see it.

I am glad that none of these calls adversely impacted the outcome of the game. And I hope TM hustles more in tonight's game since he is U2. I would hate to see him caught out of position on a potential steal.

with runners on.. U2 has no outfield responsibility, it goes back to the same as 3 man with no one on. Plus with 6 umpires with a runner on, U3 has no outfield coverage... it goes to the LFU and RFU...I just think he got a little lazy not thinking about the tag up play.

[midwayll]

with runners on.. U2 has no outfield responsibility, it goes back to the same as 3 man with no one on.

Really? Really? I'm no expert on 4 man as I said, and I am certainly not saying you are wrong, but this sounds crazy! So if a fly ball is hit to F8 with R1 on base, U2 doesn't make the out/no catch call? U2 would be positioned in B or C in this scenario, right? Sounds weird that he doesn't make the call for any fly ball hit between the F7 and F9. I'm gonna have to pull out an old 4 man mechanics file that I have somewhere.

Plus with 6 umpires with a runner on, U3 has no outfield coverage... it goes to the LFU and RFU...

Yep, this at least I know.

I just think he got a little lazy not thinking about the tag up play.

And this I agree with, except maybe replace "little" with "extremely".

[bigbird69]

Let's all agree on something. Tim's play is perfect training video to show rookies as to why you have to hustle on every play. Good well respected ump, but he took two plays off and ooops...

How would he like going back to AAA and 3 man with more running during the regular season? Maybe a week down there would remind him that running around one base all night sounds like a dream....

[AugieDonatelli]

Maybe a week down there would remind him that running around one base all night sounds like a dream....

You mean except when he goes out on the ball, or when he rotates to second base, or when he rotates to home? It's not just running around one base all night in 4 man.

[lustersilk]

So if a fly ball is hit to F8 with R1 on base, U2 doesn't make the out/no catch call?

Correct. In four man mechanics, when U2 comes inside U1 and U3 split the outfield. The only time U2 will take the call is when it is a trouble ball, straight at F8, below the knees.

When working 4 man mechanics, a good pregame is imparative, because there are so many possibilities of coverage and sometimes people don't work this rotation until the end of the season.

[midwayll]

Correct. In four man mechanics, when U2 comes inside U1 and U3 split the outfield. The only time U2 will take the call is when it is a trouble ball, straight at F8, below the knees.

When working 4 man mechanics, a good pregame is imparative, because there are so many possibilities of coverage and sometimes people don't work this rotation until the end of the season.

Well, I don't want to highjack this thread into a 4 man mechanics discussion, but just let me say, "Wow." And yes, I agree that a good pregame would be critical.

[heyblue26]

You mean except when he goes out on the ball, or when he rotates to second base, or when he rotates to home? It's not just running around one base all night in 4 man.

See Aguie Donatelli is always on top of his game

[mazzamouth]

Really? Really? I'm no expert on 4 man as I said, and I am certainly not saying you are wrong, but this sounds crazy! So if a fly ball is hit to F8 with R1 on base, U2 doesn't make the out/no catch call? U2 would be positioned in B or C in this scenario, right? Sounds weird that he doesn't make the call for any fly ball hit between the F7 and F9. I'm gonna have to pull out an old 4 man mechanics file that I have somewhere.



your correct U2 DOES NOT make this call. Depending on which way F8 is moving either U1 or U3 will make this call.. and if it is a trouble ball one of 2 Umpires will go out.. U2 will stay inside the diamond.... The CCA manual shows this good..I know it sound strange huh?

[mazzamouth]

Correct. In four man mechanics, when U2 comes inside U1 and U3 split the outfield. The only time U2 will take the call is when it is a trouble ball, straight at F8, below the knees.

When working 4 man mechanics, a good pregame is imparative, because there are so many possibilities of coverage and sometimes people don't work this rotation until the end of the season.

well technically that ball still belongs to U1 or U3....

[bigbird69]

I will admit, I rarely have ever gotten the chance for a 3 man system work. So 4 man is foreign to me.

That said, maybe the problem here is the opposite of what we have been talking about. I have heard from friends who do more 3 and 4 man on occasions that they get lazy and or lost since the have less responsiblity and are not used to it.

Maybe Tim's problem in that game was that with U4 & U5, he found himself without any outfield responsibility and he feels lost. If as you guys have said that the call in the OF would have been his, then he might have found himself in the twilight zone. What do I do, normally I would be out there but that is handled by LFU, so what do I do?

I know I have seen the same problem when working in the few 3 man that I have done with some of the U1's & U2's getting confused at to who should cover second and when. When you are not used to it, you get confused and lost easily.

[AugieDonatelli]

I will admit, I rarely have ever gotten the chance for a 3 man system work. So 4 man is foreign to me.

That said, maybe the problem here is the opposite of what we have been talking about. I have heard from friends who do more 3 and 4 man on occasions that they get lazy and or lost since the have less responsiblity and are not used to it.

Maybe Tim's problem in that game was that with U4 & U5, he found himself without any outfield responsibility and he feels lost. If as you guys have said that the call in the OF would have been his, then he might have found himself in the twilight zone. What do I do, normally I would be out there but that is handled by LFU, so what do I do?

I know I have seen the same problem when working in the few 3 man that I have done with some of the U1's & U2's getting confused at to who should cover second and when. When you are not used to it, you get confused and lost easily.
He had the same responsibility in 6 man as with 4 man (except he doesn't have the catch/no catch). He had the tag at 3rd, and the mechanics were the same for 4 or 6 man, so it wasn't that he was confused. He has also worked 6 man on many occasions, so it was not unfamiliar to him at all. He just screwed up, which is the best defense he has.

[pilotump]

Did anybody notice Laz Diaz hustle on the fly ball to left field with, I think Melky Cabrera on third? First he busted towards home to line up the tag, then when he saw that the throw was being cut off with a possible play at third, he busted right back to the bag.

I think he learned from McClellan's mistake.

[AugieDonatelli]

Did anybody notice Laz Diaz hustle on the fly ball to left field with, I think Melky Cabrera on third? First he busted towards home to line up the tag, then when he saw that the throw was being cut off with a possible play at third, he busted right back to the bag.

I think he learned from McClellan's mistake.

I think he just hustles like he should all the time. Laz always gives it his best effort. I've never seen less out of him. McClelland is the exception to the rule. Most of the MLB guys hustle and look sharp.

[loulou]

I think Laz is a great umpire,an a heck of a good guy.I attended a clinic in Orlando a few years ago,were he was a clinician.I asked him a question on some footwork,an he said TRY this or TRY that.He never said you Must do it this way or my way.Laz does not get the recognition he deserves.

[seth503]

I think Laz is a great umpire,an a heck of a good guy.I attended a clinic in Orlando a few years ago,were he was a clinician.I asked him a question on some footwork,an he said TRY this or TRY that.He never said you Must do it this way or my way.Laz does not get the recognition he deserves.
He does from me. I think Laz looks great out there. Sounds like a good teacher, too.

Anybody remember when some idiot fan ran out on the field a few seasons back and Laz took the guy down? Don't upset the umpire, especially when he's a Marine. :D