PDA

View Full Version : Hidden Ball Trick


semper_fi_72
10-18-2009, 04:00 AM
LL Jr Game Today
During game 2B became dislodged and needed some work so I call time while the coach fixes base.
While we were walking back towards 1B line, coach says "Blue my F4 has the ball, we are going to make like F1 has the Ball so we can get the runner out."
He was very confused :confused::confused::confused: when I told him no you can't try that stunt. For me to put the ball back into play the pitcher must have the ball in his possession and take his place on the rubber.
He asked where that was in the rule book?
I said if you really want to know, meet me at my car after the game and I will show it to you.
He says, if I didn't tell you we could have gotten away with it. No Coach you wouldn't have, since the ball would have never been legally put into play, because the pitcher did not have the ball in his possession. Well Blue you tell F4 to give ball to F1. No problem, very loudly, I tell F4 to give the ball to F1 so we can resume the game.
He never did come see me after the game.
I will copy 5.11 and hand it to him next Saturday.
Why would we ever want to teach our kids to play ball like that.
That is Sandlot

AugieDonatelli
10-18-2009, 04:08 AM
Why would we ever want to teach our kids to play ball like that.
That is Sandlot

Because coaches are cheating coke soakers, and players are cheating little rodents.:)

semper_fi_72
10-18-2009, 04:11 AM
Because coaches are cheating coke soakers, and players are cheating little rodents.:)

Augie
I am impressed, at least you didn't call them Brats this time....lol

bigbird69
10-18-2009, 06:43 AM
I had a similar thing happen last year. Time was called and while whatever was going on, the P had given the ball to the SS. I saw it. Pitcher was standing on the mound carefully staying away from touching the rubber waiting for me to put it in play and is just stood there staring at him. finally I said "Son, until you have the ball and are toeing the rubber, the ball will remain out of play."

He asked me about it after the game and I told him where the problem was. Can't try the hidden ball trick from a "time" situation. He understood.

I was not able to work that level this season as I found new employment that required me to relocate before that level started play. I heard from my partner that day (still very good friends of the family) that he got it right this year on a few occaisions.

heyblue26
10-18-2009, 09:36 AM
Augie
I am impressed, at least you didn't call them Brats this time....lol

Augie wouldn't ever do that would he?

kyle_jt
10-18-2009, 04:05 PM
He asked where that was in the rule book?


Don't fall for this nonsense. The ol' "show me in the book" is the first step to many coaches ejection.

You should have just smiled when he told you that F2 had the ball, and said nothing. Just don't put the ball in play. Heck, he made it easy for you. In fact we was saving you from looking like a monkey by putting the ball in play with the pitcher with an empty glove. "Thanks coach!"

This guy wasn't a cheat, because he thought what he was attempting was legal. He was just ignorant. Big difference.

Rich_Ives
10-18-2009, 05:51 PM
Why would we ever want to teach our kids to play ball like that. That is Sandlot

So just what's wrong with the hidden ball trick? It gets tried at all levels including MLB.

postman
10-18-2009, 06:42 PM
There are a lot of "sandlot / loser" plays in all sports and most is typically in the 'under 12' age groups by coaches that think it is funny to outwit a 10 yr old having fun playing in sports.

there are several idiot/sandlot plays in baseball and they compare to the 'check hike' or "coach this ball is flat" play in football. From a 'coach perspective', it is lame axx to put these in. Some of us coaches are trying to work on rules, fundamentals, etc, so we can churn out high school players or give kids an opportunity to play sports for various reasons and then we have to have 'jokes' come in make us concerned about these lame plays.

I just love it when other coaches and teams try this crap any my players didn't fall for it and the essentially laugh it off or even say "don't try that sandlot crap with us" to the other team.

ump_24
10-18-2009, 10:54 PM
There are a lot of "sandlot / loser" plays in all sports and most is typically in the 'under 12' age groups by coaches that think it is funny to outwit a 10 yr old having fun playing in sports.

there are several idiot/sandlot plays in baseball and they compare to the 'check hike' or "coach this ball is flat" play in football. From a 'coach perspective', it is lame axx to put these in. Some of us coaches are trying to work on rules, fundamentals, etc, so we can churn out high school players or give kids an opportunity to play sports for various reasons and then we have to have 'jokes' come in make us concerned about these lame plays.

I just love it when other coaches and teams try this crap any my players didn't fall for it and the essentially laugh it off or even say "don't try that sandlot crap with us" to the other team.

Watch the celebration if they do pull it off though....

Congratulations, you're smarter than a fifth grader...

postman
10-19-2009, 03:50 AM
True there Ump24. And usually the guy jumping the highest, yelling the loudest and pumping the fists is usually the coach.... Embrassing for the 'coaches profession' in my opinion. But if it isn'st against the rules.... It just does not teach them much and as they start to play higher level ball (for those that have the skill and the instruction), it weeds itself out....

almost like the 9 yr old waving the bat around in a bunt stance to 'distract' the pitcher on a 3-0 count. funny as hell when the less skilled players (usually) continue that as they get to upper level ball and a catcher leans over and says "hey, leave the Little League crap at home..." heck I even smiled on that one after the catcher said it.

AugieDonatelli
10-19-2009, 07:46 AM
So just what's wrong with the hidden ball trick? It gets tried at all levels including MLB.

Nothing, provided the ball is alive when they try it, and the pitcher doesn't stand on or near the pitcher's plate. Otherwise it's not going to happen, because no competent umpire will put the ball back in play without the pitcher on the rubber, so the play has zero chance of success.

Rich_Ives
10-19-2009, 12:39 PM
Nothing, provided the ball is alive when they try it, and the pitcher doesn't stand on or near the pitcher's plate. Otherwise it's not going to happen, because no competent umpire will put the ball back in play without the pitcher on the rubber, so the play has zero chance of success.


I know it has to be a live ball. I know you can't put the ball in play ubtil the pitcher has the ball on the rubber. That's not the issue.

A lot of coaches don't understand the necessity to makke the ball live properly. That doesn't make them cheaters. Heck, if they knew the rule they wouldn't try what the OP said they tried.

BUT!

and the pitcher doesn't stand on or near the pitcher's plate

Leave out the "on" and it's legal and part of the trick. The play itself is legal and not cheating - like it or not.

slatham
11-16-2009, 01:26 AM
In LL, what is the call and action when a pitcher actually takes the rubber without the ball in attempt at the hidden ball trick?

gregm
11-16-2009, 02:59 AM
I had always figured that the hidden ball trick is the reason coaches teach their players to stay on the base and not take their lead until the pitcher toes the rubber. As long as they do this, they will never get caught by it or will get a balk to the next base.

Richard_Siegel
11-16-2009, 03:33 AM
In LL, what is the call and action when a pitcher actually takes the rubber without the ball in attempt at the hidden ball trick?

First of all realize that this is not a violation and it is never a balk when the pitcher pitcher actually takes the rubber without the ball in attempt at the hidden ball trick when the ball is dead. Whether you are the PU or the BU, do not allow the players to try and set up a meaningless hidden-ball trick when the ball is dead. As soon as you realize what is going on immediately intervene and just tell whomever has has the ball to give it to the pitcher. Don't lecture or scold anyone. Just act the same as if you were asking someone to toss in an extra ball from side that had been fouled out of play. Letting it go only to kill it later will just cause you trouble having to explain to them why the can't do it.

However, that doesn't answer your question. Suppose you didn't notice the pitcher doesn't have the ball, and you actually called "play" and then saw F3 jump at R1 and tag him thinking he has him out. Just come out and say, "That's nothing. The ball is still dead." Ask F3 to throw the ball to F1 and tell R1 to stay at 1B. You might have to expalin this to a clueless coach because they might have pulled off this play at his direction. However, you just have to tell him even though you said the word "play," if the ball is not properly put into play, it is not legally in play, thus it's still dead.

mark38090
11-16-2009, 12:21 PM
I actually quit working for one rec dept here because they made a local rule that the hidden ball trick could be setup when the time is out. They actually put in the rules; "The ball will be live when the team that has requested time has finished it's meeting on the field and notifies the umpire that they are finished." This is done so that the out of town teams get hosed on the hidden ball trick at least once per game. The coaches protest and then they throw out the "local Rule" thing.

Richard_Siegel
11-16-2009, 01:08 PM
I actually quit working for one rec dept here because they made a local rule that the hidden ball trick could be setup when the time is out. They actually put in the rules; "The ball will be live when the team that has requested time has finished it's meeting on the field and notifies the umpire that they are finished." This is done so that the out of town teams get hosed on the hidden ball trick at least once per game. The coaches protest and then they throw out the "local Rule" thing.

This can lead to so many problems I can't begin to list them all.

nopachunts
11-16-2009, 05:31 PM
In LL, what is the call and action when a pitcher actually takes the rubber without the ball in attempt at the hidden ball trick?

slatham,
LL 8.05 An illegal pitch when a runner or runners are on base is when:

(i) the pitcher, without having the ball, stands on or astride the pitcher's plate or while off the plate feints a pitch;

Penalty: The pitch shall be called a ball.

slatham
11-16-2009, 05:48 PM
slatham,
LL 8.05 An illegal pitch when a runner or runners are on base is when:

(i) the pitcher, without having the ball, stands on or astride the pitcher's plate or while off the plate feints a pitch;

Penalty: The pitch shall be called a ball.

So penalty is a ball for the batter, but no advance for the runner - unless that is ball four! Not much of a penalty.
:mad:

Richard_Siegel
11-16-2009, 05:50 PM
I actually quit working for one rec dept here because they made a local rule that the hidden ball trick could be setup when the time is out. They actually put in the rules; "The ball will be live when the team that has requested time has finished it's meeting on the field and notifies the umpire that they are finished." This is done so that the out of town teams get hosed on the hidden ball trick at least once per game. The coaches protest and then they throw out the "local Rule" thing.

These guys ought to just cut to the chase and make a rule that says that the home team gets 4 outs and the visiting tean gets one out per inning, and each run the that home team scores counts for 5 runs. If a league butchers the rules so as to set up the other team for failure why bother to play the game?

slatham
11-16-2009, 05:53 PM
First of all realize that this is not a violation and it is never a balk when the pitcher pitcher actually takes the rubber without the ball in attempt at the hidden ball trick when the ball is dead. Whether you are the PU or the BU, do not allow the players to try and set up a meaningless hidden-ball trick when the ball is dead. As soon as you realize what is going on immediately intervene and just tell whomever has has the ball to give it to the pitcher. Don't lecture or scold anyone. Just act the same as if you were asking someone to toss in an extra ball from side that had been fouled out of play. Letting it go only to kill it later will just cause you trouble having to explain to them why the can't do it.

However, that doesn't answer your question. Suppose you didn't notice the pitcher doesn't have the ball, and you actually called "play" and then saw F3 jump at R1 and tag him thinking he has him out. Just come out and say, "That's nothing. The ball is still dead." Ask F3 to throw the ball to F1 and tell R1 to stay at 1B. You might have to expalin this to a clueless coach because they might have pulled off this play at his direction. However, you just have to tell him even though you said the word "play," if the ball is not properly put into play, it is not legally in play, thus it's still dead.

I had meant to ask what would happen when play is still live from last play and pitcher takes rubber without ball.

gregm
11-17-2009, 12:45 PM
I actually quit working for one rec dept here because they made a local rule that the hidden ball trick could be setup when the time is out. They actually put in the rules; "The ball will be live when the team that has requested time has finished it's meeting on the field and notifies the umpire that they are finished." This is done so that the out of town teams get hosed on the hidden ball trick at least once per game. The coaches protest and then they throw out the "local Rule" thing.

From my limited experience, most organizations work from a major rule set such as OBR or Fed. Then add their changes so to properly apply to each age group. Just about all rule sets require that all ground rules (local rules) must be made known to both coaches before the game begins. I would say that if it was not made known to the visiting coach before the game began, it would not be enforced.

Richard_Siegel
11-17-2009, 12:58 PM
I had meant to ask what would happen when play is still live from last play and pitcher takes rubber without ball.

That's a balk!

However, be careful where you enforce this. The rule that prohibits the pitcher from being on or astride the rubber without the ball is specifically there to prevent the hidden ball trick. There are many times a pitcher will step on or be near the rubber without the ball during a game. Most of the time it is nothing. You have to use common sense here.

For instance, with runners on 1st and 2nd base, F1 throws "ball four." Before the catcher throws the ball back to him, the pitcher immediately steps back onto the rubber waiting to take the ball from F2. The batter is trotting to 1B. The pitcher is on the rubber without the ball until the catcher finally throws it back. Even though there was a few seconds F1 was on the rubber without the ball this is not a balk.

Whenever a pitcher maks a pick-off throw to 1B from the rubber (i.e. a jump turn, or pure pivot) as soon as he throws to 1B and the ball leaves his hand the pitcher is on or astride the rubber without the ball. This is not a balk.

You have to see the elements of the hidden ball trick being played out by the infielders where they are trying to make a runner believe the pitcher has the ball and then see the pitcher is on or astride the rubber without the ball. That's the balk!

nopachunts
11-17-2009, 02:00 PM
That's a balk!



Richard,

In post #13, slatham was referring to LL, not Junior, Senior, or Big League.

AugieDonatelli
11-17-2009, 02:35 PM
First of all realize that this is not a violation and it is never a balk when the pitcher pitcher actually takes the rubber without the ball in attempt at the hidden ball trick when the ball is dead. Whether you are the PU or the BU, do not allow the players to try and set up a meaningless hidden-ball trick when the ball is dead. As soon as you realize what is going on immediately intervene and just tell whomever has has the ball to give it to the pitcher. Don't lecture or scold anyone. Just act the same as if you were asking someone to toss in an extra ball from side that had been fouled out of play. Letting it go only to kill it later will just cause you trouble having to explain to them why the can't do it.

However, that doesn't answer your question. Suppose you didn't notice the pitcher doesn't have the ball, and you actually called "play" and then saw F3 jump at R1 and tag him thinking he has him out. Just come out and say, "That's nothing. The ball is still dead." Ask F3 to throw the ball to F1 and tell R1 to stay at 1B. You might have to expalin this to a clueless coach because they might have pulled off this play at his direction. However, you just have to tell him even though you said the word "play," if the ball is not properly put into play, it is not legally in play, thus it's still dead.

I had this exact situation on Sunday. The offense requested Time for a runner for R1 (the last recorded out for a Non-Runner). They exchanged places. F3 had the ball. I was BU and didn't think much of it, not anticipating a hidden ball trick while the ball was dead. The PU didn't realize that I had granted Time for the runner switch, as I believe he was talking with someone at the plate when I granted Time. The pitcher actually stepped on the rubber and started his stretch without the ball. Of course F3 is trying to get my attention that he has tagged R1, meanwhile my partner is calling a balk because he thought the ball was alive and in play. I then called Time and called my partner out and told him that I had Time for a Non-Runner, and we sent the runner back to first and explained that the ball was dead so it was nothing. If the offense hadn't had a Non-Runner at first base, the ball would have remained alive and we would have both called the balk.

Richard_Siegel
11-17-2009, 02:35 PM
Richard,

In post #13, slatham was referring to LL, not Junior, Senior, or Big League.

Time! That's a ball!

thunderheads
11-17-2009, 05:01 PM
Time! That's a ball!

So , whether a pitch is made or not ....... "ball" ?

nopachunts
11-17-2009, 05:27 PM
So , whether a pitch is made or not ....... "ball" ?

Yes, the pitch was not actually made, the penalty is a "ball" being added to the batter's count.

thunderheads
11-17-2009, 05:28 PM
Yes, the pitch was not actually made, the penalty is a "ball" being added to the batter's count.

Just checking ;)

THANKS!

polar1955
04-16-2010, 02:18 AM
LL Jr Game Today
During game 2B became dislodged and needed some work so I call time while the coach fixes base.
While we were walking back towards 1B line, coach says "Blue my F4 has the ball, we are going to make like F1 has the Ball so we can get the runner out."
He was very confused :confused::confused::confused: when I told him no you can't try that stunt. For me to put the ball back into play the pitcher must have the ball in his possession and take his place on the rubber.
He asked where that was in the rule book?
I said if you really want to know, meet me at my car after the game and I will show it to you.
He says, if I didn't tell you we could have gotten away with it. No Coach you wouldn't have, since the ball would have never been legally put into play, because the pitcher did not have the ball in his possession. Well Blue you tell F4 to give ball to F1. No problem, very loudly, I tell F4 to give the ball to F1 so we can resume the game.
He never did come see me after the game.
I will copy 5.11 and hand it to him next Saturday.
Why would we ever want to teach our kids to play ball like that.
That is Sandlot

Sounds like another coach who thinks he's got something new to show the umpire..:rolleyes: Maybe he should be showing his kids how to play 21 or something instead of baseball and how to pay your taxes........:cool:

pagraber
05-15-2010, 05:21 AM
Yes, the pitch was not actually made, the penalty is a "ball" being added to the batter's count.

If I'm not mistaken the pitch (or non-pitch) actually counts toward the player's pitch count as well (in leagues where this is monitored).

I had this call a few weeks back in LL Junior's division. The ball was live after a walk and I saw the setup by the F3 from my position as PU. The pitcher took a position astride the rubber but never touched it, but with the obvious intent to look like he was taking the signs. I called the Balk and moved the runner. The DHC asked for an explanation which I kept very short ("look up the rules around Balks"), he seemed content with it. Unfortunately I don't think rule books are standard issue to Managers or Coaches in our league.

polar1955
05-15-2010, 09:00 AM
Because coaches are cheating coke soakers, and players are cheating little rodents.:)

Absolutely funny...still LOL