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cajunyankee
10-09-2009, 03:17 PM
Here's a small diamond question. In the USSSA leagues that I work (and in many others of course) there is a rule that all offensive players that are not in a dugout during a live ball situation must wear a helmet.

The problem I have is that players congregate around the openings of the dugouts and eventually end up standing just outside the opening on the field of play.

I warn the bench, all is fine for an inning or two, then I glance over and see them back out, sans helmets.

My question is: what do I do about it? Eject a coach? Call a batter out (making up rules at this point and I don't ever do that), etc.

What have you guys done to enforce this rule without starting too much trouble?

AugieDonatelli
10-09-2009, 04:06 PM
After warning the coach, eject the coach if it continues. When you warn the coach, specifically tell him that any further violations will result in his ejection from the game. Just warning alone usually goes in one ear and out the other, so mentioning the penalty for non-compliance will get the message across. Coaches must learn to control their benches and keep the hyper little brats inside the dugout where they belong.

Rich_Ives
10-09-2009, 04:44 PM
After warning the coach, eject the coach if it continues. When you warn the coach, specifically tell him that any further violations will result in his ejection from the game. Just warning alone usually goes in one ear and out the other, so mentioning the penalty for non-compliance will get the message across. Coaches must learn to control their benches and keep the hyper little brats inside the dugout where they belong.

I was OK with this until you got to "brats".

Chill Steve.

I know it's like cat herding but they aren't brats.

cajunyankee
10-09-2009, 05:16 PM
I work between 15 and 20 games per week on average.

For the most part, the kids aren't the brats.

Coaches and parents, these are the brats.

cajunyankee
10-09-2009, 05:17 PM
I'll start with the coaches this week.

I've had it with having to worry about the safety of the kids after I've told the coaches on several occasions to get them back inside the dugout.

jbradbury
10-09-2009, 08:44 PM
Ejecting is counter-productive: now you've got one less adult to keep the kids from "leaking" out onto the field.

Here's what I've done that seems to work:
1. Warn the coach a couple times. (never seems to work)
2. Call "Time". Walk over to the bench and say this: (make sure the coach is within earshot):

3. "Guys, I've asked you a couple times to get out of the doorway, but it's not working. So, here's what we'll do. The NEXT TIME I see you in the doorway, I'm going to take your Head Coach and make him Dugout Monitor. He will have to spend the rest of the game standing in the doorway, to keep you in there. Now, he doesn't want that, wants to be out here in the field. So, he's going to be pretty upset with you. OK? OK.

I guarantee you the coach will read them the riot act, and they'll stay in the dugout.

(BTW, if you have to actually DO it, tell him it's under 9.01(b)

BrianC14
10-09-2009, 09:38 PM
Ejecting is counter-productive: now you've got one less adult to keep the kids from "leaking" out onto the field.

Here's what I've done that seems to work:
1. Warn the coach a couple times. (never seems to work)
2. Call "Time". Walk over to the bench and say this: (make sure the coach is within earshot):

3. "Guys, I've asked you a couple times to get out of the doorway, but it's not working. So, here's what we'll do. The NEXT TIME I see you in the doorway, I'm going to take your Head Coach and make him Dugout Monitor. He will have to spend the rest of the game standing in the doorway, to keep you in there. Now, he doesn't want that, wants to be out here in the field. So, he's going to be pretty upset with you. OK? OK.

I guarantee you the coach will read them the riot act, and they'll stay in the dugout.

(BTW, if you have to actually DO it, tell him it's under 9.01(b)

That's the lamest form of game management I've ever heard.
Why stop at "a couple" of warnings? Why not provide them with six warnings - one for each inning? Or how about 12 warnings - one for each 1/2 inning?
YGTBKM with that No. 3 item. You're out there to umpire baseball, and instead you've appointed yourself as Head Babysitter.

You warn ONCE.
When the same problem reoccurs, you dump the head coach.
He is, after all, supposed to be in charge of his team. Some people just have to learn it the hard way.

jbradbury
10-09-2009, 09:54 PM
And then what, Brian? You've accomplished nothing. Now you've got one less coach, the kids are no more safe than when you started, and you're still either going to be telling them to get back in the dugout, or letting them wander around out there.

And, before you slip into "not my job" mode, let a kid get drilled in the forehead by a line drive because he was someplace he shouldn't have been, and then sit in a courtroom answering the question "Tell me Mr. Brian, isn't the Umpire responsible for the administration of the game when it's in progress?

Do it however you want, it's your choice. Personally, I'll take a minute or two to keep them safe out there.

BrianC14
10-09-2009, 10:14 PM
And then what, Brian? You've accomplished nothing. Now you've got one less coach, the kids are no more safe than when you started, and you're still either going to be telling them to get back in the dugout, or letting them wander around out there.

And, before you slip into "not my job" mode, let a kid get drilled in the forehead by a line drive because he was someplace he shouldn't have been, and then sit in a courtroom answering the question "Tell me Mr. Brian, isn't the Umpire responsible for the administration of the game when it's in progress?

Do it however you want, it's your choice. Personally, I'll take a minute or two to keep them safe out there.

You send a message that the ongoing problems which is the COACH'S responsibility to keep his players where they belong. You are limited in what you can do here - and when the constant reminders don't work - what then? You haven't solved the problem by providing them with unlimited warnings.

You can provide 35 warnings in every game - and if, by poor luck, some kid does get your proverbial line drive in the skull, what will you have then? Your word (verbal warnings) against the coach's word (who's certainly not going to admit in court that you kept warning them). At some point, you will have to take action. If you got into a situation that placed you as defendant in a lawsuit, you can point both to the verbal warnings AND the action you took - an ejection of the coach - as proof that you'd done everything within your authority to prevent the problem from happening again. Most leagues require a written report after an ejection. That written report lets the league officials know that you're addressing a potential problem with safety.

That bit about putting the head coach in the dugout doorway and the condescending manner in which you propose to explain it to the kids - what garbage! What are you going to do when the coach tells you to PACK SAND, and tells you to pay more attention to the game rather than sticking your nose into his dugout? What are you going to do then? Give yet another warning? And then another?

You eject the coach after one warning. If that doesn't get the message across, and players leave the dugout again, you start ejecting the ones that leave the dugout.

fivmntmajr
10-09-2009, 11:17 PM
"You eject the coach after one warning. If that doesn't get the message across, and players leave the dugout again, you start ejecting the ones that leave the dugout."

Brian, you can't make it any more clear than that! Giving multiple warnings is like a cop without a gun. "Halt...or yell halt again!"

The first (and only) warning should be clear and loud enough for the rest of the bench to hear you. I would remind the opposing bench too. If it happens again..."Some people just have to learn it the hard way."

semper_fi_72
10-09-2009, 11:39 PM
Because the coach is ejected does not always mean he has to leave the dugout.
Eject him as the coach and make him sit there as door monitor.
If he cant manage the players while coaching take the responsibility away from him.
Oh, if you eject him and he leaves the dugout or field appoint a parent the door manager to keep the kids in the dugout.
You can also tell the kids directly to get into and stay in the dugout, and I do mean tell them, not ask them. When it comes to safety and game management we don't ask. We are in control and what we say must be followed or else. If they don't listen eject a kid, the rest will stay in the dugout.

heyblue26
10-10-2009, 12:46 AM
Because the coach is ejected does not always mean he has to leave the dugout.
Eject him as the coach and make him sit there as door monitor.
If he cant manage the players while coaching take the responsibility away from him.
Oh, if you eject him and he leaves the dugout or field appoint a parent the door manager to keep the kids in the dugout.
You can also tell the kids directly to get into and stay in the dugout, and I do mean tell them, not ask them. When it comes to safety and game management we don't ask. We are in control and what we say must be followed or else. If they don't listen eject a kid, the rest will stay in the dugout.

I agree what is said here. Usally doing all the warning stuff doesn't work and after a few innings its back as they started. Yes ejecting the kid that is doing it maybe one of the starting players so if he gets ejected the message gets across quick and the coach well its too late because I am sure that this was covered at the plate meeting.

This is covered in my plate meetings that all players stay in the dugout except for the batter at bat and the one due up next in the batting circle and all equipment removed from playing area (Means kept in the dugout). Safety is and issue and game management must be enforced once you recieve the line ups at the plate you have full control.

jbradbury
10-10-2009, 03:24 AM
What we're talikng about is how to handle, (at munchkin level ball), kids that leak out onto the field. But, if I get your drift, here's the scenario I'm imagining:

Umpire: (as kids are seen outside the dugout in the second inning): "Coach, get those kids out of the doorway".

Coach: "OK Blue. Billy, get back inside"

Umpire: (as kids are seen outside the dugout in the 4th inning) "Coach, you're ejected"

Coach: "Huh, how come?"

Umpire: "Your kids were in the doorway again"

Coach: "But, Blue, I haven't got anybody else to coach the team"

Umpire: "BALL GAME"

IMHO, you haven't taught him anything. He's not going home, thinking, "Gee, I really should have taken control of the players better. I'll do better next time." All he's thinking is that you're an OOO who ejected him just because Billy doesn't like to watch the game through the fence.

In my scenario, what you've done is let him know that, if he won't protect the kids on his team, you will see to it that he does.

I've used this three times this season (three different teams). In all cases, after I've spoken to the teams, the coaches took charge, the issue was resolved, and nobody leaked out anymore. It took me 15 seconds, everybody stayed safe, nobody got ejected, and we finished the game. I call that Game Management.

I can't eject a coach, and then tell him to stay: we don;t "restrict to the dugout" (a/la FED). In this League, if he's ejected, he out of sight and out of sound. I also can't "appoint" a parent to babysit. If you're not registered by the league (with appropriate background check), you're not in our dugouts for any reason.

You got real excited about how may "warnings" I give, before I talk to the team. Trust me, it's not nearly as much as you think, and I've never been described as "weak" out there. I'm just giving the coach every opportunity to handle the issue himself, before I fell theneed to step in.

You guys are free to do whatever you think works for you. I'm just telling you what works for us.

willv28
10-10-2009, 05:41 AM
I've never really had this problem. But, while I see your reaosning. I'm not going to address the issue more than once. It quickly can become distracting. I see the scenario you present as somewhat overblown. If you told him he will be ejected for not keeping his players in the dugout and/or being on the field sans helmet. Then he will and should know what that means if he gets ejected. If he wants to be a baby about it, that's his problem. Ejection is more likely to put a permanent end to the issue. They will comply. Controlling his players is part of his job.

Anything ending as you describe just means the coach REALLY needed to go and shows their true nature anyway.

mark38090
10-10-2009, 06:47 AM
Brian, yours is the easiest answer and makes the most sense. Warn once and start tossing coaches. It sends a very loud message acroos the league and the next teams will be aware before the game starts.

Forest_Ump
10-10-2009, 03:40 PM
You have to control the game and you must do it without emotion. If you have issued a warning for anything, bat throwing, players out of the dugout, arguing strikes, etc., you must follow up with an ejection. Seriously, it's not your problem that someone got ejected. Just do it with no emotion and move on with the game. They will learn from it and you will not leave a mess for the next umpire.

BrianC14
10-10-2009, 06:55 PM
You have to control the game and you must do it without emotion. If you have issued a warning for anything, bat throwing, players out of the dugout, arguing strikes, etc., you must follow up with an ejection. Seriously, it's not your problem that someone got ejected. Just do it with no emotion and move on with the game. They will learn from it and you will not leave a mess for the next umpire.

Yes - and thanks for making this point. Doing "what works for us" is another way of just kicking a problem down the road... letting someone deal with a problem. That fits the definition of poor game management.

Thumbs up to you, Forest. :idea:

postman
10-12-2009, 12:40 AM
I've been on both end of this one as a coach and an ump.

As a coach, what worked for me was the ump calling our attention to it a few times. And I am telling you when their are just two coaches with one at third and othe at first, it is tough on us keeping the LL'ers in control. Listen, generally speaking we want to cooperate.

But one ump helped out when he said (I forget his exact words), Listen, coach it is a safety issue not a LL rule issue. But if someone gets hurt, we both liable because I warned you. I see you got your hands full, get a parent to step in if needed. And be darn a mother heard it, and stepped in and helped. out.

what I appreciated it was the 'respect' the ump showed towards what us coachs are doing/going through and not coming off like a 'get with my agenda or u are ejected attititude."

Just a thought guys'....

missouriump
10-12-2009, 06:37 PM
This message of simple safety should start in the pre-game coaches meeting. I always inform the coaches that, "All buckets stay on the concrete, all coaches must have at least one foot on the concrete, and all players must keep both feet on the concrete". Coaches seem to think they can sit outside their dugout on the ball buckets. So, if we don't allow the coaches a comfortable place to plant their heinies outside of the dugout, the problem seems to solve itself. See, the coaches will now sit right in the opening on their buckets and keep the kids behind them so as not to block their precious views of the field! In the past few years, only one blustery coach made a scene about it. It was a 10u game and he was not used to adult umps. A quick explanation regarding his personal safety and an ever quicker note that if he didn't comply he would be coaching via his cell phone from the parking lot cleared the situation right up.

So, don't let the coaches (other than the base coaches) wander around on the field and the kids will follow suit.

Dragon29
10-15-2009, 09:56 PM
And I am telling you when their are just two coaches with one at third and othe at first, it is tough on us keeping the LL'ers in control.

OK - If this really is LL you've already got an issue.

4.05 (2) . . . Base coaches shall be an adult manager or coach only if there is at least one other adult manager or coach in the dugout. (My emphasis)

. . . and yes, we make them do that around here. Put a player w/a helmet at first and tell him to stay out of U1's way.

postman
10-16-2009, 04:35 AM
Concord, Nice... I grew up in Concord.

Nope. Not official "little leaue". More of a reference to age group (under high school). And generally no issues really when I coach(ed). Just depends on what year/age group, which kid's parents just split up, was he on his med's or what. Point was immediately tossing coaches for 'game management' is not always/have to be the best solution. there are ways around it on both sides - coaches and umps. I am not saying safety shouldn't be taken seriously. It should be/is

anyway, that was all the point was. good luck to all

Pete_Booth
10-16-2009, 02:37 PM
[QUOTE=cajunyankee;96176]Here's a small diamond question. In the USSSA leagues that I work (and in many others of course) there is a rule that all offensive players that are not in a dugout during a live ball situation must wear a helmet.

This is a LEAGUE problem. We are simply the enforcers.

If this is THEIR rule then there should be a MANDATORY coaches meeting to go over these so called "House rules" at the BEGINNING of the season so that EVERYONE is on the same page.

The aforementioned is a BIG problem when it comes to small diamond ball. They put in rules and leave it at that. Then when umpires start enforcing THEIR OWN rule they take exception and say we are hard a$$$, etc.

That's why many (includes myself) stay away from kiddie ball.

I will give you an example:

Legion baseball is OBR based. About 2/3 yrs ago MLB made it MANDATORY for base coaches to wear helmets. Legion issued a memorandum to all particpants and posted it on their website as well so that the coaches GOT the message.

In youth or more commonly called "kiddie ball" they simply issue the rule books / addendum to the rules etc. and THAT's it.

You asked what you would do.

I do not like giving warning after warning etc. because after a while it becomes meaningless and counter productive. Normally I stay away from these kinds of things at the plate conference but since they have this type of "house rule" I would mention this rule at the plate conference and say something along the lines of "coaches please make certain ALL players keep their helmets on if they are out of the dug-out." No threat, etc. just a brief sentence alerting the coaches about THEIR rule.

The first time you see it, Call TIME and speak to the head coach directly.

IMO, that is it for warnings. It's THEIR rule, you alerted them at the plate conference about their rule and now it's their job to control their respective dugouts.

if they cannot then unfortunately we have to and then it's by by coach. If they do not have enough adults or coaches left then it's game time.

If this type of "thing" is persistent in this league then the league administrators need to be called or simply scratch this from your schedule.

Pete Booth

kyle_jt
10-16-2009, 03:47 PM
Concord, Nice... I grew up in Concord.



Hey, I was a '76 grad of Clayton Vally High myself. Criused Main in Walnut Creek many 'o Saturday night. Good times.



I'd just have a casual conversation with the manager.

"Boss, I've got too many unprotected kids poking their domes outside the dugout. Solve that for me please, or I'll have to solve it."

I'm guessing USSSA doesn't have the "adult in the dugout" like LL. You could always make that a real-time requirement, as opposed to ejection.

"Skipper, you need some supervision in that dugout. Who's it gonna be?"

If the manager doesn't care for your approach, then the heavy hand may have to come down. But in the end, it's all his choice.

Dragon29
10-16-2009, 04:02 PM
Concord, Nice... I grew up in Concord.
I'm sorry! ;)

Hey, I was a '76 grad of Clayton Vally High myself. Criused Main in Walnut Creek many 'o Saturday night. Good times.

I didn't have a 'teen' experience here; grew up in SoCal but you wouldn't recognize Main now - very commercialized.

Re:the OP - Furthest I've ever had to go w/this is to stop play in a 13-14 game once. This was after telling them once and warning them once; after that - no problems

Pete_Booth
10-16-2009, 05:29 PM
[QUOTE=BrianC14;96198]That's the lamest form of game management I've ever heard.
Why stop at "a couple" of warnings? Why not provide them with six warnings - one for each inning? Or how about 12 warnings - one for each 1/2 inning?
YGTBKM with that No. 3 item. You're out there to umpire baseball, and instead you've appointed yourself as Head Babysitter.

Brian unfortunately this is small diamond ball mentality and is one of the main reasons I do not umpire small ball anymore or if I do it's on the rarest of occassions.

In samll diamond ball for some reason they EXPECT the umpire to be more of a care-taker then an umpire. If you sign up to be a coach then be ONE. Part of the coaches responsibities is to keep cpntrol over THEIR dugout. If they cannot then do not give warning after warning etc. When does it end.

There are 2 teams out there so to use your phrase provide them with six warnings would translate into 12 warnings. 6 for each coach.

Also, it's my gut that a coach who did adhere to the rules would get upset at an official who repeatedly gave warnings to the other coach.

Mention this at Pre-Game. if it happens ONCE call TIME and after that it's by by otherwise do not even bother to issue a warning as it has no meaning.

Pete Booth

BrianC14
10-16-2009, 06:48 PM
[quote]

Brian unfortunately this is small diamond ball mentality and is one of the main reasons I do not umpire small ball anymore or if I do it's on the rarest of occassions.

In samll diamond ball for some reason they EXPECT the umpire to be more of a care-taker then an umpire. If you sign up to be a coach then be ONE. Part of the coaches responsibities is to keep cpntrol over THEIR dugout. If they cannot then do not give warning after warning etc. When does it end.

There are 2 teams out there so to use your phrase would translate into 12 warnings. 6 for each coach.

Also, it's my gut that a coach who did adhere to the rules would get upset at an official who repeatedly gave warnings to the other coach.

Mention this at Pre-Game. if it happens ONCE call TIME and after that it's by by otherwise do not even bother to issue a warning as it has no meaning.

Pete Booth

Pete, FYI - I was being saracastic with the idea of offering 6 or 12 warnings. ;)

I did LL for 2 years - 2001-2002, and way, way back when, I worked games for the really wee folks. My approach was as you suggest - you point it out, and make sure the responsibility goes right where it belongs: on the coach.

Pete_Booth
10-16-2009, 07:24 PM
[QUOTE=BrianC14;96477][quote=Pete_Booth;96474]

Pete, FYI - I was being saracastic with the idea of offering 6 or 12 warnings. ;)

Brian I realize you were being sarcastic but my point was if you issue 3 warnings for one coach then iot stands to reason you will give 3 warnings to the "other' coach. In other words multiply the number of warnings you give by 2. that's the problem with issuing warning after warning.

Also, it's UNFAIR to a coach that abides by the rules and then he sees an official giving the "other" team numerous warnings.

FWIW I had a similar incident in a HS game with a good partner of mine. My partner had the dish. This one particular player would roam outside the dugout and visit his family, get something to eat and drink.

my partner told the coach to keep his players inside the dug-out. They were playing a team from out of town and the other team was well coached and abided by the rules.

The coach didn't listen to my partner's warning and the player did it again. This time my partner told the player "to have a nice day" In other words see ya

The kid's mother said "Hey he is my kid so I can feed him and give him something to drink" to which my partner replied "yes he is mam and you can have him the rest of the day" The parent then got obset with her own son becasue now she had to take him home. I had to call time I was laughing so hard.

Pete Booth

heyblue26
10-17-2009, 10:50 PM
Pete That is really funny in the end. I was laughing myself.

missouriump
10-19-2009, 06:54 PM
[QUOTE=Pete_Booth;96479][QUOTE][QUOTE=BrianC14;96477]



FWIW I had a similar incident in a HS game with a good partner of mine. My partner had the dish. This one particular player would roam outside the dugout and visit his family, get something to eat and drink.

my partner told the coach to keep his players inside the dug-out. They were playing a team from out of town and the other team was well coached and abided by the rules.

The coach didn't listen to my partner's warning and the player did it again. This time my partner told the player "to have a nice day" In other words see ya



Pete,

Was this 'wandering' player entering foul territory to go to his mommie for a drink or was he simply exiting the back of the dugout and going to his mommie? If the player never entered the playing field, why, as umpires, would we care if he was grabbing a hotdog and a drink? If that was the case, your partner was an OOO.

However, if the player had to be on the field of play in order to leave the dugout, I still don't see how the kid deserved to be ejected. Did he leave the gate/exit open? Was the gate/exit really close to home plate? Was the player really, really really slow in leaving the field?

What I am getting to is that if the player quickly and quietly left the field between pitches or during a dead ball/foul ball situation and never interfered with play, why the ejection? What if the player had the runs and had to use the John J Crapper a few times during the game? It seems to me that the manager/coach should be the ones keeping the players out of the stands, not us as umpires.

Pete_Booth
10-19-2009, 07:13 PM
[QUOTE=Pete_Booth;96479][QUOTE][QUOTE=BrianC14;96477]



Pete,

Was this 'wandering' player entering foul territory to go to his mommie for a drink or was he simply exiting the back of the dugout and going to his mommie? If the player never entered the playing field, why, as umpires, would we care if he was grabbing a hotdog and a drink? If that was the case, your partner was an OOO.

However, if the player had to be on the field of play in order to leave the dugout, I still don't see how the kid deserved to be ejected. Did he leave the gate/exit open? Was the gate/exit really close to home plate? Was the player really, really really slow in leaving the field?

What I am getting to is that if the player quickly and quietly left the field between pitches or during a dead ball/foul ball situation and never interfered with play, why the ejection? What if the player had the runs and had to use the John J Crapper a few times during the game? It seems to me that the manager/coach should be the ones keeping the players out of the stands, not us as umpires.

In HS players are REQUIRED to be in the dugout with their team NOT roaming around visiting with mommy etc. This is NOT LL. I was talking about HS. Same holds true on an EJ. You do not want kids "roaming around.

The team has all the necessities in their dug-out meaning plenty to drink etc. Unless said kid had a medical problem and needs to go to the bathroom alot etc. he belongs with his teammates.

The "other" team was abiding by the rules. It's not being OOO. In addition the kid was holding up the game. In HS you get one minute TIMED FROM THE LAST out to get ready. We are NOT babysitters. if you want to have a pic-nic stay home.

Pete Booth

AugieDonatelli
10-19-2009, 07:37 PM
Also, it's UNFAIR to a coach that abides by the rules and then he sees an official giving the "other" team numerous warnings.

FWIW I had a similar incident in a HS game with a good partner of mine. My partner had the dish. This one particular player would roam outside the dugout and visit his family, get something to eat and drink.

my partner told the coach to keep his players inside the dug-out. They were playing a team from out of town and the other team was well coached and abided by the rules.

The coach didn't listen to my partner's warning and the player did it again. This time my partner told the player "to have a nice day" In other words see ya

The kid's mother said "Hey he is my kid so I can feed him and give him something to drink" to which my partner replied "yes he is mam and you can have him the rest of the day" The parent then got obset with her own son becasue now she had to take him home. I had to call time I was laughing so hard.

Pete Booth


Pete,

Was this 'wandering' player entering foul territory to go to his mommie for a drink or was he simply exiting the back of the dugout and going to his mommie? If the player never entered the playing field, why, as umpires, would we care if he was grabbing a hotdog and a drink? If that was the case, your partner was an OOO.

However, if the player had to be on the field of play in order to leave the dugout, I still don't see how the kid deserved to be ejected. Did he leave the gate/exit open? Was the gate/exit really close to home plate? Was the player really, really really slow in leaving the field?

What I am getting to is that if the player quickly and quietly left the field between pitches or during a dead ball/foul ball situation and never interfered with play, why the ejection? What if the player had the runs and had to use the John J Crapper a few times during the game? It seems to me that the manager/coach should be the ones keeping the players out of the stands, not us as umpires.



In HS players are REQUIRED to be in the dugout with their team NOT roaming around visiting with mommy etc. This is NOT LL. I was talking about HS. Same holds true on an EJ. You do not want kids "roaming around.

The team has all the necessities in their dug-out meaning plenty to drink etc. Unless said kid had a medical problem and needs to go to the bathroom alot etc. he belongs with his teammates.

The "other" team was abiding by the rules. It's not being OOO. In addition the kid was holding up the game. In HS you get one minute TIMED FROM THE LAST out to get ready. We are NOT babysitters. if you want to have a pic-nic stay home.

Pete Booth

Pete is correct, even though we are in the "Small Diamond" section, he has mentioned a high school situation governed by FED rules. The kid was NOT using the bathroom, he was fraternizing with mommy in the stands, which is prohibited.

The umpire followed the prescribed penalty for failing to heed the warning to get back in the dugout. Rule 3-3-1-j clearly states, "A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not be outside the designated dugout (bench) or bullpen area if not a batter, runner, on-deck batter, in the coach's box or one of the nine players on defense."

PENALTY: The umpire shall eject the offender from the game, unless the offense is judged to be of a minor nature. The umpire may warn the offender and then eject him if he repeats the offense.

That's not OOO, it's called umpiring.

ump_24
10-19-2009, 07:39 PM
[QUOTE][QUOTE=missouriump;96587][QUOTE=Pete_Booth;96479]

In HS players are REQUIRED to be in the dugout with their team NOT roaming around visiting with mommy etc. This is NOT LL. I was talking about HS. Same holds true on an EJ. You do not want kids "roaming around.

The team has all the necessities in their dug-out meaning plenty to drink etc. Unless said kid had a medical problem and needs to go to the bathroom alot etc. he belongs with his teammates.

The "other" team was abiding by the rules. It's not being OOO. In addition the kid was holding up the game. In HS you get one minute TIMED FROM THE LAST out to get ready. We are NOT babysitters. if you want to have a pic-nic stay home.

Pete Booth

I wish this methodology was more common. I find it interesting however, that your partner chose to deal with the player directly, instead of the manager. He is responsible for his players; make it his problem.

missouriump
10-19-2009, 08:07 PM
Pete,
I agree, "WE ARE NOT BABYSITTERS". But with your statement that umpires are required to keep all players in the dugout, we have become just that! Not sure what state you umpire high school games in, but in the Missouri State High School Activities Association 2008/2009 baseball manual, there is no mention of umpires having to become babysitters. I will stand corrected if somebody can find just such a rule that applies to Missouri high school baseball. It just does not seem this would become a point of emphasis to the point of adding additional responsibilities to the umpires. Unless there is a threat to our safety (say from an idiotic enraged parent), why do we care what happens outside of the fences?

But, in your reply it is mentioned the offending player was delaying the game. That said, your partner, the PU, probably did the right thing in ejecting the player after the coach was alerted. That would be a righteous ejection. The player showing up the ump, etc...... See ya. Then, "Coach, we need a new player."


Augie,

I see from the following rule quote how this can be interpreted.

Rule 3-3-1-j clearly states, "A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not be outside the designated dugout (bench) or bullpen area if not a batter, runner, on-deck batter, in the coach's box or one of the nine players on defense."

PENALTY: The umpire shall eject the offender from the game, unless the offense is judged to be of a minor nature. The umpire may warn the offender and then eject him if he repeats the offense.

But, that rule should be applied to players entering the field of play and possibly interfering with play. Again, why do we care if the player walks behind their dugout to, say, stretch out, get a high five from his Dad/Mom after a good play, to get a drink from his family's cooler, or whatever. If we started ejecting players for leaving the dugout no games would ever finish due to lack of players!

AugieDonatelli
10-19-2009, 08:42 PM
But, that rule should be applied to players entering the field of play and possibly interfering with play. Again, why do we care if the player walks behind their dugout to, say, stretch out, get a high five from his Dad/Mom after a good play, to get a drink from his family's cooler, or whatever. If we started ejecting players for leaving the dugout no games would ever finish due to lack of players!

Players are not allowed to mingle with spectators at any level. They are game participants. The crowd is NOT part of the baseball game. The players have no business visiting the family water cooler. His water belongs on the bench with the player. If you are having problems with that many players leaving the playing field to go to the bleachers, you are not effectively monitoring the game, and your game management skills can be called into question.

OBR rules have two separate rules that deal with this, and it is in this spirit the FED rule needs to be enforced properly:

3.09 Players in uniform shall not address or mingle with spectators, nor sit in the stands before, during, or after a game. No manager, coach or player shall address any spectator before or during a game. Players of opposing teams shall not fraternize at any time while in uniform.

3.17 Players and substitutes of both teams shall confine themselves to their team’s benches unless actually participating in the play or preparing to enter the game, or coaching at first or third base. No one except players, substitutes, managers, coaches, trainers and bat boys shall occupy a bench during a game.

PENALTY: For violation the umpire may, after warning, remove the offender from the field.

Rule 3.17 Comment: Players on the disabled list are permitted to participate in pre-game activity and sit on the bench during a game but may not take part in any activity during the game such as warming up a pitcher, bench-jockeying, etc. Disabled players are not allowed to enter the playing surface at any time or for any purpose during the game.

Dragon29
10-19-2009, 08:50 PM
If we started ejecting players for leaving the dugout no games would ever finish due to lack of players!

missouri - No, though I am in favor of a warning to either the player or coach beforehand, if you eject players for leaving the dugout, you may not finish that game but you can be certain you wouldn't have that same problem in subsequent games.

Players play
Coaches coach
Umpire umpire
Spectators spectate
Period
The earlier everyone 'gets' this, the better off everyone will be.

Pete_Booth
10-20-2009, 12:15 AM
[QUOTE=missouriump;96599]Pete,
I agree, "WE ARE NOT BABYSITTERS". But with your statement that umpires are required to keep all players in the dugout, we have become just that! Not sure what state you umpire high school games in, but in the Missouri State High School Activities Association 2008/2009 baseball manual, there is no mention of umpires having to become babysitters. I will stand corrected if somebody can find just such a rule that applies to Missouri high school baseball.

If the state of Missouri follows FED rules and I believe Missouri does then Augie gave you all the rules and penalties outlined in the FED rule book.

Here is a FED case play for reference.

FED Case play 3.3.1H
Team A has one of it's player in uniform in the bleachers behind home plate or in the bleachers along the third base line.

RULING: ALL players ,attendants and bench personnel shall remain in the dugout (bench) or bullpen at all times unless they are a batter, runner, on deck batter, an occupant of the coaches box or one of the 9 players on defense.

PENALTY: The umpire shall EJ the player from the game unless the umpire judges the offense to be minor in nature.

Players are there to play what is supposed to be a baseball game. If they want to fraternize with people in stands including their parents that's their perogative but NOT on my field.

Now I am not rediculous. if a kid hits a dinger and his father / mother is in dead ball territory giving him a high five is one thing. (that is not dealying the game) I am talking about constant delays and players fraternizing with spectators. In FED this is prohibited.

This OP began with a poster having problems with players leaving the dugout area and giving numerous warnings which in the sceheme of things does NOTHING. This is a small diamond Forum and therefore, we are receiving small diamond responses. That is why I specifically mentioned HS ball which addresses this issue as Augie eluded to.

Remember there are 2 teams out there. If we let players roam around etc. get ready for a LOOONG game. Also, how many warnings are you going to give? That's why I said this is not basby-sitting but a baseball game.

ALL players need to be in the dugout or dugout area.

You can do what you wish but FED as Augie pointed out is specific in this area. I and my partner ( in the example I gave) gave the coach ample opportunity to "take care of his team". If the coach cannot then unfortunately we have to.

Also, as I mentioned numerous times what about the "other' coach who is abiding by the rules. Don't you think he will start getting 'ticked off' about the delay in the game and constant warning by the umpire.

In a nautshell we are there to umpire a baseball game. If the players want to have a pic-nic then go ahead and let me know and we can end early (i still get paid)

Pete Booth

missouriump
10-20-2009, 02:14 PM
Pete said, "Now I am not rediculous. if a kid hits a dinger and his father / mother is in dead ball territory giving him a high five is one thing. (that is not dealying the game) I am talking about constant delays and players fraternizing with spectators. In FED this is prohibited."

Which rule are you enforcing? Delay of game, which would seem appropriate from your posts, or the idiotic rule of players not being allowed to leave the dugout? If umpires are supposed to enforce all rules, then even if a player exits the field to get congrats from his Dad, then he gets tossed. That would be ridiculous. That would be a sh!t storm of monumental proportions! I am assuming (from your earlier post) that the explanation given by your partner, the PU, for the ejection was because of delay of game, not because the player was wandering around outside the dugout.

Point out your interpretation of the rules all you want. If my partner was focusing on where players are during the game and not on the action on the field, then his focus is misplaced. That would be an OOO and I would not support such an ejection if where the player was standing was not affecting the game.

And game management???? Tossing players for standing outside the dugout is good game management? Nah. Not in my book. That is an invitation for unnecessary protests, irate coaches, upset fans and police escorts to your vehicle. I let the players and coaches toss themselves. I don't go looking for a sh!t storm.

Out of curiosity, has any umpire tossed a player for simply being outside the dugout? No delay of game. No smart a$$ comments. Just being outside the dugout.

Pete_Booth
10-20-2009, 02:36 PM
Point out your interpretation of the rules all you want. If my partner was focusing on where players are during the game and not on the action on the field, then his focus is misplaced. That would be an OOO and I would not support such an ejection if where the player was standing was not affecting the game.

We are PAID to umpire given the rule sets we are given.

Also, in all YOUR responses you didn't answer about the "other coach" who is abiding by the rules. You seem to ignore that aspect of the game. BTW I have had coaches come to me and say "Blue what gives how many warnings are you going to give. My players are where they are supposed to be".

Also, Players being OUTSIDE the dugout DOES AFFECT the game. Suppose the coach wants to put in a pinch runner or your state has adopted FED's CR rules and now the coach is looking for his CR or pinch runner and said player is outside the dugout etc. and now we have to wait.

There are 2 TEAMS out there playing under the SAME set of rules.

FED is SPECIFIC. If you choose to ignore those rules and interps that is your peragative. What about the FPSR - going to ignore that as well.

Example: Player is outside the dugout and you say NOTHING. Player gets DRILLED by a foul ball and has a serious injury. You along with everyone is going to get sued.

The FIRST thing any judge / attorney is going to look at is the RULES. As been mentioned to you MANY MANY times FED has a SPECIFIC Rule and case book anaysis EXPLAINING it's stance on players being OUTSIDE the dugout.

What are you going to say to the judge. " Your honor I did not want to be Overly officious so I chose to ignore the rule and the case play".

I guess this falls under "Agree to disagree" as I am not going to change your stance and I have already given mine. But at least my stance is "backed-up" by a specific rule and case book play. Your stance is backed up by the phrase - being overly officious

Pete Booth

ump_24
10-20-2009, 03:32 PM
Pete said, "Now I am not rediculous. if a kid hits a dinger and his father / mother is in dead ball territory giving him a high five is one thing. (that is not dealying the game) I am talking about constant delays and players fraternizing with spectators. In FED this is prohibited."

Which rule are you enforcing? Delay of game, which would seem appropriate from your posts, or the idiotic rule of players not being allowed to leave the dugout? If umpires are supposed to enforce all rules, then even if a player exits the field to get congrats from his Dad, then he gets tossed. That would be ridiculous. That would be a sh!t storm of monumental proportions! I am assuming (from your earlier post) that the explanation given by your partner, the PU, for the ejection was because of delay of game, not because the player was wandering around outside the dugout.

Point out your interpretation of the rules all you want. If my partner was focusing on where players are during the game and not on the action on the field, then his focus is misplaced. That would be an OOO and I would not support such an ejection if where the player was standing was not affecting the game.

And game management???? Tossing players for standing outside the dugout is good game management? Nah. Not in my book. That is an invitation for unnecessary protests, irate coaches, upset fans and police escorts to your vehicle. I let the players and coaches toss themselves. I don't go looking for a sh!t storm.

Out of curiosity, has any umpire tossed a player for simply being outside the dugout? No delay of game. No smart a$$ comments. Just being outside the dugout.

If by your last statement you mean MLB, of course not - because the players don't leave the dugout. Its that simple.

A little harsh...yes, by all means. However, kudos to the organizing body for attempting to fix a problem that has gotten out of control. Players don't leave the bench in hockey, football, or basketball; it has crept into the game now to the point where the players follow their parents around like lost puppies.

missouriump
10-20-2009, 03:37 PM
If a player or coach in uniform is behind homeplate or near the opposing team's dugout, that would be addressed. If the coach doesn't have his pinch runner or courtesy runner ready, then we play on. Very simple.

If you want to get picky about applying rules to the letter, then do you call the strike from armpits to ankles??? Some rules and their interpretations get applied differently depending on the situation. We all know that. But applying this rule to the letter would result in a complete debacle. If the bullpen is outside the fence and is simply a section of chain link fence positioned as a barrier, how and where will an umpire determine if the player enters the stands/fan area? If the dugout is too small for all the players to sit comfortably and also contain their gear, do you have the field staff chalk a line outside the field but around the dugout and designate that as an extension of the dugout? I don't umpire on many fields where the bullpen and dugout are not accessible from the bleachers. The dugouts open up to the bleachers. Some dugouts have just benches placed behind an opening in the fence. Where do you draw the line and how can that not be subject to each umpires' interpretation? I, for one, don't feel the need to go there.

This rule can be applied for some situations such as heated rivalries. But, that should be addressed and handled primarily by the hosting school's athletic director and discussed in the pregame meeting. The host school should control their fans and the visiting coach should warn their players to stay in the dugout for their own welfare. Hopefully both teams would have responsible adults and/or school officials positioned near the dugouts.

This rule, if specifically and literally applied, is Pandora's Box. However, if a player delays the game or commits other infractions while outside the dugout, then apply the appropriate ruling and play on.

I have never seen or heard, prior to this post, of a player being ejected specifically and only for being outside the dugout. Hopefully, I never will.

Pete, I think you have it backwards. The OOO would be the one ejecting a player for specifically and only being outside the dugout.

AugieDonatelli
10-20-2009, 05:56 PM
Outside the dugout and going into the stands to visit mommy are two different things. I would have ejected the player in the OP for failure to heed the warning that was issued to get his ass back on the field where he belonged.

I have never ejected anyone for only being outside a dugout, but I have ejected plenty of people for failure to comply with my direct order to do what I tell them to.

I don't umpire on any fields with dugouts accessible from the bleachers. We normally have real dugouts with bricks or fencing and they don't connect directly to the fans. Maybe some sandlots do it differently. I don't allow players (non-adult players, that is) to go visit people in the stands. It's just not done out here in this area. It looks horseshit. The players are there to play baseball, not to smoke and joke with all their buddies in the stands, or mommy and daddy, or anything similar. They're supposed to be on the field, in the bullpen, or on the bench.

And nobody would have to go looking for players in the stands, they would be obvious, or an opponent might point it out and complain about it. What are you going to do then, when the other teams manager says, "Hey, look, that guy is in the bleachers, Blue!" You then have to do something about it. I don't see where it's a case of not paying attention to what's going on on the field, it's just basic game management to control the players and managers. That's your job as an umpire. It's not OOO to take charge of your ballfield.

missouriump
10-20-2009, 06:53 PM
Augie said, "I don't umpire on any fields with dugouts accessible from the bleachers. We normally have real dugouts with bricks or fencing and they don't connect directly to the fans. Maybe some sandlots do it differently. I don't allow players (non-adult players, that is) to go visit people in the stands. It's just not done out here in this area. It looks horseshit. The players are there to play baseball, not to smoke and joke with all their buddies in the stands, or mommy and daddy, or anything similar. They're supposed to be on the field, in the bullpen, or on the bench.

And nobody would have to go looking for players in the stands, they would be obvious, or an opponent might point it out and complain about it. What are you going to do then, when the other teams manager says, "Hey, look, that guy is in the bleachers, Blue!" You then have to do something about it. I don't see where it's a case of not paying attention to what's going on on the field, it's just basic game management to control the players and managers. That's your job as an umpire. It's not OOO to take charge of your ballfield."

Augie,

All hail to the baseball gods that have built such cathedrals in your area. If I were lucky enough to umpire on such grand fields, I still would not give a hoot what the players do outside of the dugout as long as it does not interfere with the game. I would leave that to an OOO and let him take charge of the ballfield.

But here in back-a$$wards Missouri, I umpire on fields where good folk back their pickup trucks right up to the fence, set up their lawn chairs in the back and cheer on their kids and grandkids. There can be as little as 50 feet from the dugout to the concession stand and 10 feet from the dugout to the bleachers. He11, the backstop may only be 15 feet from home plate. Imagine, if you can, small rural communities where high school (as well as little league) games are a social event. If an umpire were to start enforcing this rule we are discussing, it is likely a big, lifted 4X4 would crawl over the umpire's car.

In the Kansas City suburbs there are some beautiful facilities. But very, very few have been built with physical barriers separating the players from the stands. Around here, with a handful of exceptions, we are taught to concern ourselves with actions on the field. Leave the stands to the managers, league officers, and tournament directors.

You can stay in your world and enforce this rule to the letter and be seen as an OOO. I will stay in mine, knowing the coaches, players and fans like seeing me walk onto their field, comfortable with their certainty I will focus on the game and not what occurs in the stands.

Forest_Ump
10-20-2009, 07:12 PM
If an umpire were to start enforcing this rule we are discussing, it is likely a big, lifted 4X4 would crawl over the umpire's car.

Man, you owe me a keyboard big time. That's the funnest thing I've read on here.

missouriump
10-20-2009, 07:35 PM
Forest_Ump,

I am here all week. Please don't forget to tip your waiters and waitresses...........

AugieDonatelli
10-20-2009, 07:46 PM
And Bubba would likely get his 4X4 shot full of holes by the Crips or Bloods (or the angry umpire) out here!

We have a few fields like that here too. The players just stay on the field where they belong, so we don't have to deal with it. They are there to play baseball, and we take baseball pretty seriously here in the baseball hotbed of the U.S. And players and coaches here comply with the orders they receive from the umpires, or they get run. Pretty simple really.

I've been umpiring now for 25 years, and I've never been seen as an OOO. I am one quality official, that's what I am. If that's what you think game management is, then you are going to be pretty much alone on your own limb on this one.

missouriump
10-20-2009, 08:05 PM
Careful, Auggie. You may break your arm patting yourself on the back. Plus, you may slip and fall in the bathroom while blowing kisses to yourself in the mirror.

ump_24
10-20-2009, 08:36 PM
Careful, Auggie. You may break your arm patting yourself on the back. Plus, you may slip and fall in the bathroom while blowing kisses to yourself in the mirror.

Missouri,

There was no need for that. I can tell you with certainty that the man behind the pseudonym of Augie Donatelli is in fact a good umpire. A very good umpire.

The fact of the matter here is that players and coaches belong on the bench, and parents READ - fans - belong in the stands.

If you choose to handle your games differently, so be it. Augie and Pete told you how it is handled at the elitest of levels in their area. It is how, by rule, it is supposed to be handled. We are not here to make friends, be popular, or be the star of the show. We are here to make sure business is taken care of.

As I said, you handle things your way. The rest of us will do it our way.

One last thing - before you criticise someone for "patting themselves on the back" you may want to look into ensuring they haven't earned their right to do that to begin with.

seth503
10-21-2009, 12:52 AM
We have a few fields like that here too. The players just stay on the field where they belong, so we don't have to deal with it. They are there to play baseball, and we take baseball pretty seriously here in the baseball hotbed of the U.S. And players and coaches here comply with the orders they receive from the umpires, or they get run. Pretty simple really.

We have a lot of fields with the dugouts separate from the stands and a lot of fields that aren't like that. But I don't see much of a problem with players not staying on the bench. Maybe in Missouri, I don't know...but then, maybe they don't think that's a problem in that area...

Missouriump, taking the path of least resistance and not trying to upset the players and coaches is not good game management. Asking them politely to comply, then penalizing them if needed, is good game management.

bigbird69
10-21-2009, 04:28 AM
Well Missouriump, I guess that you get to pick and choose the rules you enforce. I know you would not last in my hometown. I had a friend who found himself not scheduled for 3 weeks because he choose not to enforce the players in the stands rule. His assigner told him just what these guys are trying to tell you. You are assigned to do a job. If you don't like the rules, you still have to enforce them or get a new job.

I had to deal with a coach complaint from the other side when the umpire failed to enforce the rule (I was on the league board), We had to suspend a coach because his LL team that he was supposed to watch was down playing in the creek. That coach watch a few games from the parking lot for his abilities. An yes, it slowed the game down because when they needed to take the field, they had to be found first.

I have also seen an umpire during a game warn a coach about his players sitting in the bleachers. 2 innings later he walked over to the bleachers and ejected the 5 players sitting in them. Game over because that left only 6 left to field a team.

When the complaints hit the league level, the board suspended the coach for 2 additional games and awarded that team another forfit for their actions (because the players involved got another game by rule(SRLL.) When you follow the rules, you get backed up. When you don't, you are showing favoritism of some kind. So get off your high horse and do your job.... or else sit in the stands with the players you refuse to enforce the players do and enjoy the game like it appears you should be doing.

I had to remove a 10 year old from a game because he could not keep his bat from clobbering the catcher (knocked the catcher out of the game.) I didn't like it, but I had to do it... (he also clobbered me twice that season... once earlier in that game and another time before.) The kid got the message and I never saw him come close to getting anybody later. It was a league rule... did I like it, NO... but it had to be done....

missouriump
10-21-2009, 12:39 PM
Guys,

My point is very simple. If an umpire chooses to enforce this rule to the letter and ejects players simply for being outside the dugout, in my humble (since I have upset some by being sarcastic to Auggie) opinion, that is an OOO. BUT, if the players being outside the dugout affects the game by delaying it (such as playing in the creek) then the rule needs to be enforced.

The rules also state that there is no arguing balls and strikes. Do we eject coaches and players each and every time we hear them chirp? No. We judiciously apply the rule and when the chirping gets out of hand then we toss someone.

Good coaches do keep their players on or very near the bench. That is good coaching. If the bleachers happen to be near the dugout, which most are, and some of the players hang out there, I don't care as long as it does not affect the game.

This rule is what I consider a "gray" rule. It is not obvious such as a fair or foul ball. If the circumstances warrant, then the rule will be applied. As some have alluded to, I don't "pick and choose" which rules to enforce. I enforce the rules properly.

PS: In Missouri we don't get up on our high horse, we use a mule.

missouriump
10-21-2009, 12:56 PM
Missouri,

There was no need for that. I can tell you with certainty that the man behind the pseudonym of Augie Donatelli is in fact a good umpire. A very good umpire.


One last thing - before you criticise someone for "patting themselves on the back" you may want to look into ensuring they haven't earned their right to do that to begin with.

Ump_24,

I am very certain Auggie is a fine umpire. But, he is a big boy and can take care of himself. I don't think he was offended, just not used to someone disagreeing with him on this forum. It does not happen often as Auggie knows the rules.

I am enjoying this! At work, we can't have any decent discussions or debates without the possibility of offending somebody. So, nobody really talks. No politics. No religion. Absolutely no discussions on sex. Here, we can agree to disagree and be a bit sarcastic while ribbing the other umpires that are posting.

BrianC14
10-21-2009, 01:45 PM
Amazing.

Four pages and countless words about a situation that boils down to just two words:

Game management.

Or, if you prefer, baby sitting.

Pete_Booth
10-21-2009, 03:59 PM
[QUOTE][QUOTE=missouriump;96684]Guys,

My point is very simple. If an umpire chooses to enforce this rule to the letter and ejects players simply for being outside the dugout, in my humble (since I have upset some by being sarcastic to Auggie) opinion, that is an OOO.

Ok one more for me.

You still have not addressed 2 very important issues.

Player Outside dug-out NOT interfering with the game.

According to all your posts thus far, you would ignore and think this is being OOO.

Issue 1. As I mentioned to you in a prior response (which you STILL did not address), the player OUTSIDE the dugout is hit by a FOUL ball, etc. etc. where because the player was OUTSIDE the dug-out he gets seriosuly injured and there is a pending lawsuit.

You better have plenty of insurance coverage because you chose to IGNORE a CRYSTAL clear rule and corresponding FED case play which STRICTLY PROHBITS players from being outside the dug-out.

Issue 2: There are 2 Teams out there and one team is well coached and ABIDING by the rules. He is now getting annoyed that you as an umpire are NOT enforcing the rule. His players are inside the dug-out where they belong and YOU simply ignore the rule against the other team no matter how minor.

Apparently that is accepted practice where you work, however, as others pointed out in our respective areas, you would be lucky to get a modified assignment.

Pete Booth

missouriump
10-21-2009, 05:30 PM
I give up! You have worn me down! I can not get the point across that this particular rule needs to be applied. if necessary. when the players absence from their dugout affect the game.

Pete, regarding #1, bad things happen to good people all the time. If the player is not paying attention and gets hit, its his fault. No difference to me if the player had been standing in the on deck circle and gets hit with a foul ball. The player's parents may sue if they feel the circle is too close to home plate. If someone wants to sue, they will find an issue.

Regarding issue #2, the only time in my 25+ wonderous and glorious experience packed years umpiring baseball and softball (did you all catch that, I am 'touting' my experience to try and further my point) has a coach ever complained about where opposing players are sitting/standing is when they (or one of their coaches) are directly behind home plate. Once that is pointed out to the PU (usually by the BU), then the player/coach is told to move. If a coach wants the other team's players ejected because they are standing outside their dugout---and for no other reason than that---I would point his attention back to his own bench and instruct him to mind his own players.

Now, I am done. Really. This mule is dead and no beating on it with a stick will wake the stubborn a$$ up.

TejasSlim
10-21-2009, 06:22 PM
Careful, Auggie. You may break your arm patting yourself on the back. Plus, you may slip and fall in the bathroom while blowing kisses to yourself in the mirror.

Actually this is an accurate of desciption of Augie. I work with an umpire in my association that used to work in Augie's ex-association, the prestigious SDCBUA. He gave a none too flattering review. I won't go into details, but he is rated only an average umpire at best.

AugieDonatelli
10-21-2009, 06:34 PM
Actually this is an accurate of desciption of Augie. I work with an umpire in my association that used to work in Augie's ex-association, the prestigious SDCBUA. He gave a none too flattering review. I won't go into details, but he is rated only an average umpire at best.I was rated much higher than whoever your source is thinks I was. You shouldn't listen to people's opinions without ever seeing me work, scrubby. Actually, my ratings were always in the top 20 umpires in the association after my first 10 years or so. I started out with poor game management skills, but those improved dramatically with time and experience. Perhaps that's why I worked the CIF semis and quarters a bunch of times, worked 3 Mexican-American League All-Star Games and 2 of their League Championship games, worked the Area Code games at Qualcomm Stadium and Tony Gwynn Stadium, was on many schools request lists, and was well-received by most coaches and players throughout the San Diego area over the years. And now, I am regarded as one of the better umpires working the SDABL in the N.A.B.A., getting the plum assignments week after week. I think you would be surprised at the quality of umpiring I deliver. I'm not the best, but I am anything but "average."

ump_24
10-21-2009, 06:53 PM
Actually this is an accurate of desciption of Augie. I work with an umpire in my association that used to work in Augie's ex-association, the prestigious SDCBUA. He gave a none too flattering review. I won't go into details, but he is rated only an average umpire at best.

Everyone in the world can find a flaw with someone else.

I'm sure everyone on this forum has been called the worst umpire ever, or something along these lines, multiple times.

I'm going to go ahead and theorize that this person worked with Augie, and received less / lower quality assignments than him, takes it personally, and now slanders his reputation every time he can. If this fellow umpire of yours was indeed better, he would most likely have enough class not to put someone down.

I have never witnessed first hand Augie working a game, but I have the same type of evidence as you, my source being a Nationally certified umpire (the cream of the crop here), who would suggest the polar opposite to your suggestion. And that is all I have to say

Except that TejasSlim, you are a tool for acting like a five year old in this regard.

missouriump
10-21-2009, 07:13 PM
Everyone in the world can find a flaw with someone else.


Except that TejasSlim, you are a tool for acting like a five year old in this regard.



Now, now Ump_24. There is no need to be like that. Tisk. Tisk.

Sorry, could not resist. I am done, now. Really. Well, I think so. Probably. Maybe. Nah. We all know I will post again..............

BrianC14
10-21-2009, 07:50 PM
Actually this is an accurate of desciption of Augie. I work with an umpire in my association that used to work in Augie's ex-association, the prestigious SDCBUA. He gave a none too flattering review. I won't go into details, but he is rated only an average umpire at best.

So you're just repeating someone else's opinion, and based on that, you're calling it "accurate" ?

How do you know? You've never seen the man's work, but you certainly seem only too happy to insult someone based on a secondhand opinion.

That says an awful lot about you. :|

AugieDonatelli
10-21-2009, 07:57 PM
Now, now Ump_24. There is no need to be like that. Tisk. Tisk.Yes, I agree...it was an insult to 5 year olds everywhere!

semper_fi_72
10-22-2009, 01:18 AM
Actually this is an accurate of desciption of Augie. I work with an umpire in my association that used to work in Augie's ex-association, the prestigious SDCBUA. He gave a none too flattering review. I won't go into details, but he is rated only an average umpire at best.

I would be very careful about repeating info someone gives you about someone else that you do not know is fact or can not verify as fact.
I would also like to ask, what is wrong with the term "AVERAGE". Perhaps you should look the term up in the dictionary. As long as I am not below average, sub-standard, unsatisfactory, I am happy to be at least Average. That means I am meeting the Normal Required Standards. Can't fire me or discipline me from any job for being Average.
Since you seemed to take this to the Personal Level....I hereby EJ you from the game. Hit the showers with Manny.

heyblue26
10-22-2009, 12:07 PM
I would be very careful about repeating info someone gives you about someone else that you do not know is fact or can not verify as fact.
I would also like to ask, what is wrong with the term "AVERAGE". Perhaps you should look the term up in the dictionary. As long as I am not below average, sub-standard, unsatisfactory, I am happy to be at least Average. That means I am meeting the Normal Required Standards. Can't fire me or discipline me from any job for being Average.
Since you seemed to take this to the Personal Level....I hereby EJ you from the game. Hit the showers with Manny.

I agree with what has been said if you can't say something nice about somebody and especially someone you do not even know the best advice is don't say anything at all. Hear say is exactly that hear say. Like he said she said nothing founded I rest my case.

TejasSlim Don't belive everything you hear. And yea what is wrong with being average. Nothing as it has been said. Now below average different story but you can always improve can't you and become above average and even become excellent