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semper_fi_72
09-20-2009, 02:21 AM
I briefly watched a LL Minor game today while I was walking my dog.
This league does not use umpires for their fall ball.
They have the Defensive Coach call balls and strikes from behind the mound so he can coach his pitcher at the same time.
While I was there, I watched the pitch hit the batter.
The batter dropped his bat and took off towards 1B.
The Defensive Coach yells at him to get his attention and then tells him that if he does not try to get out of the way of the pitch better next time, he may not call it hit by the pitch and give him 1B.
The Offensive Coach did not hear him well and asked what happened.
He told the coach to tell his player to make a better effort to get out of the way of the pitch so it does not hit him or he may not get 1B next time.
The Offensive Coach did not bat an eye and spoke with R1 at 1B.
Funny part is I was right behind the back stop.
The kid did try to move but it nailed him in the middle of his back.
Great coaching. :rolleyes:
Oh....No one asked if the kid was alright either.
Bad Coaching :p

carolinablue
09-20-2009, 03:10 AM
That's a switch, I usually hear the coaches telling kids to let the ball hit them. Even in minors.

Richard_Siegel
09-20-2009, 04:42 PM
....He told the coach to tell his player to make a better effort to get out of the way of the pitch so it does not hit him or he may not get 1B next time.

Think of how illogical this is..

The kid is warned by an acting-umpire to make a "better" effort to get of the way of the pitch so it does "not" hit him or he may not get 1B next time....

If he were to make a better effort so it doesn't hit him he would then not be entitled to an award of first base next time or ANY time!

Also, many coaches do not understand that the batter is expect to "make an effort" to avoid being hit by the pitch. It does not mean the effort to avoid the pitch has to be successful. Hence the acting-umpire's warning to make a "better" effort is not appropriate. By saying he has to make a "better" effort he is acknowledging that the batter did, in fact, make some kind of effort. That is all the rules requires... some kind of effort.

Rich_Ives
09-20-2009, 10:31 PM
Then again maybe at one time he had a player denied first base because of lack of enough effort and, instead of knowing the umpire at that game was wrong, is just passing along what he perceives as a lesson learned.

willv28
09-21-2009, 04:53 AM
I hate doing minors after all the things that happened this season. Though I'll likely get fed up with what happens without an umpire out there and do it again.

The worst thing that happened, and a lot here may have heard it. Coaches that would tell their kids to stay in the box if they "weren't hit hard enough".

semper_fi_72
09-21-2009, 05:59 AM
After giving it some thought, I think he was trying to take some heat off his pitcher for hitting the batter.

jtn93
09-21-2009, 07:09 PM
I asked my UIC about the whole attempt thing, he told me that the young guys don't really need to make an effort, that's for teenage ball. Can anyone expand on this?

Richard_Siegel
09-21-2009, 07:22 PM
I asked my UIC about the whole attempt thing, he told me that the young guys don't really need to make an effort, that's for teenage ball. Can anyone expand on this?

Young kids don't always have the reflexes to avoid a pitch. They often freeze up like a deer in the headlights. As long as the kid isn't trying to get hit we will give him the base.

Even with older players where the pitching becomes very fast, they don't always have the opportunity to even move because the pitch is on them so quickly. Again, as long as the kid made no effort to get hit, let him take the base. If you judge he had the time to move and he could have made an effort to move, you can keep him there. JUDGEMENT!

willv28
09-21-2009, 11:39 PM
Exactly, I imagine you've seen 12 year olds jump out of the way of a fastball down the middle or in no way was going to him them. They're still developing those reflexes and judgment. Hard to deal with it, so I too give them the base unless they were trying to get hit.

Richard_Siegel
09-22-2009, 12:27 AM
Exactly, I imagine you've seen 12 year olds jump out of the way of a fastball down the middle or in no way was going to him them. They're still developing those reflexes and judgment. Hard to deal with it, so I too give them the base unless they were trying to get hit.

I once saw a 11 y/o think a pitch was going to hit him and he bent over to avoid it and placed his head in the middle of strike zone. The pitch came right down and hit him in the helmet. No base.

cajunyankee
09-22-2009, 04:45 PM
I agree with Richard. Some of the pitchers at this level simply overpower the younger, less-experienced kids.
Some of these batters are seeing fast and/orbreaking pitching for the first time and they simply don't have the ability to recognize the pitches correctly, let alone get out of the way.

bigbird69
09-23-2009, 04:50 AM
I fully agree. I had one game where a kid saw a breaking ball that he backed out on since it was right at his chin, only to have it break into the strike zone. He had a horrible looking swing... 3 pitches later, here comes the curve and this time he hung in there, except it did not break this time (I could see the rotation as could the batter.) I took flak from the defensive coach and pitcher about it until I said enough and walked away. Both almost left the game.

I have also seen a kid duck his head into a high pitch... over the plate but high... he did not see first on that pitch. (next pitch hit him in the A$$.)

Also, this is LL... even the smallest twitch is considered an attempt by the rule book. so to say he needed to do more means the coach needs to read the little green book more.

cajunyankee
09-23-2009, 02:53 PM
Big Bird,

What were the coaches arguing about?

bigbird69
09-26-2009, 03:48 AM
The coach was arguing about the fact that I awarded the BR first on the HBP. "He made no attempt to move!"

I walked away because I knew that if I opened my mouth, my foot would be in it... They calmed down later (player went to his HS Baseball coach that was behind the backstop (he was my HS coach as well 23 year ago) looking for love. Coach agreed with the call.)

I have started calling games here in Colorado. (moved in late June due to employment) and it was nice. The only argument was very mild and I can safely tell you, he was not arguing with me. My partner called a strike that bounced. I kept my mouth shut... Of course later in the game between innings, the assignor was there giving him sh1t about it (in good fun and he made sure we both knew he was trying to be funny (and quiet about it))

My comments to my partner... Been there, done that (and I have), and I remember being embarassed all to hell...

It was nice to work a game where the coaches and the players PLAYED first, and forgot to argue. I don't think that I am going to miss NY.

Rotor
09-29-2009, 04:27 AM
I swore off minor league baseball, but have started doing some again so I can work with my oldest son who is a first year umpire. I seem to spend as much time correcting the coaches as I do my son on the rules I hear them teaching their kids. It is the usual myths of hands part of the bat, runner has to turn right in foul territory after crossing first, MUST always slide on a close play, etc. He even points out their mis-understandings of the rules to me that I don't hear from time to time.

Richard_Siegel
09-29-2009, 11:51 AM
I swore off minor league baseball, but have started doing some again so I can work with my oldest son who is a first year umpire. I seem to spend as much time correcting the coaches as I do my son on the rules I hear them teaching their kids. It is the usual myths of hands part of the bat, runner has to turn right in foul territory after crossing first, MUST always slide on a close play, etc. He even points out their mis-understandings of the rules to me that I don't hear from time to time.

Sometimes the coach's misunderstanding of the rules can help you. A few years ago a coach calls out from the dugout to his pitcher, "Frankie, remember you have to step off the rubber if you throw to first base!" My first thought was to go say something to him, but then I thought. If the kid only steps off when he throws to first it is less likely he'll commit a balk. That's less work for me, so I let it go.

Rich_Ives
09-29-2009, 03:37 PM
Sometimes the coach's misunderstanding of the rules can help you. A few years ago a coach calls out from the dugout to his pitcher, "Frankie, remember you have to step off the rubber if you throw to first base!" My first thought was to go say something to him, but then I thought. If the kid only steps off when he throws to first it is less likely he'll commit a balk. That's less work for me, so I let it go.

That'll come back to bite you when some pitcher makes a legal pick from the rubber and you don't call a balk.

Richard_Siegel
09-29-2009, 04:00 PM
That'll come back to bite you when some pitcher makes a legal pick from the rubber and you don't call a balk.

Why would that bite me? If the pitcher balks why would I not call it? If the coach of the offense complains that F1 has to step off the rubber to throw to 1B (as they often do) I will advise him that he does not understand the rules (as I often do).

CoachJM
09-29-2009, 04:11 PM
Rich,

I gotta agree with Richard on this one.

He may get "barked" at, but he ain't the one who will get bitten.

JM

AugieDonatelli
09-29-2009, 08:19 PM
I disagree. I would go over between innings and inform the coach exactly what the rule is, so he can start teaching his players how to play the game properly. The pitcher may balk more, which is a headache for the umpires, but he might pick off a runner once in a while as well, because he sure won't pick anyone off stepping off the rubber. Anytime I can dispel a rumor or myth, the better off all umpires who follow will have it.

Richard_Siegel
09-29-2009, 09:20 PM
I disagree. I would go over between innings and inform the coach exactly what the rule is, so he can start teaching his players how to play the game properly. The pitcher may balk more, which is a headache for the umpires, but he might pick off a runner once in a while as well, because he sure won't pick anyone off stepping off the rubber. Anytime I can dispel a rumor or myth, the better off all umpires who follow will have it.

I'm not saying I don't do this. I do it a lot. I always do it if the coach asks me. But when not asked, in practicality it is often impossible to do, or not worth your trouble.

If a coach who has been chirping at me or I have had some problem with before tells one of his players something wrong, the hell with him.

Often it is difficult to get the coach's attention between innings while he is speaking to his players or he runs out to coach 3B.

Being seen giving advice like this to one coach looks bad of the other coach notices you doing it.

Sometimes when you do it your explanation comes back to bite you. I once saw a coach tell his F3 that it was illegal for him to stand in the baseline blocking R1 from getting back to the base. I stepped in without an invitation and told him, "It is legal for F3 to stand anywhere he wants in fair territory. He can't block the runner without the ball, but if he has the ball he can block the R1 from getting back to the base." As you would expect an inning or so later on a pick off throw to 1B, F3 steps into R1's path and blocks him from getting back to 1B BEFORE he caught the throw from F1. I call obstruction on him and sent R1 to 2B. I immediately had that coach all over me because he felt I had reversed my earlier advice when I just told him that F3 could "stand anywhere he wants." He forgot about the part about having to have the ball. But at that time there was no way I could now explain it to him because he was livid.

They can't get mad at you if don't say anything.