Dropped 3rd Strike Mechanic.

[mt 73]

Is there a MLB mechanic for a dropped third strike?
My umpire association teaches us to point to the ground and say, "Strike 3--ball is down"
Is this correct?

[AugieDonatelli]

Is there a MLB mechanic for a dropped third strike?
My umpire association teaches us to point to the ground and say, "Strike 3--ball is down"
Is this correct?

Currently the pros are making a strike signal followed by the safe or "no catch" signal.

[bretth]

Currently the pros are making a strike signal followed by the safe or "no catch" signal.

That's what I do, however I have seen some guys that simply point for the strike and do nothing. I think that is asking for trouble myself, it's easy to avoid by simply vebalizing no catch while giving the safe signal or pointing down. I think it is important to verbalize so that the batter and the catcher both know what you are calling.

[TomClarke]

Is there a MLB mechanic for a dropped third strike?
My umpire association teaches us to point to the ground and say, "Strike 3--ball is down"
Is this correct?

if it was down, why did you call it a strike?

i'm not going to judge as to whether it's "correct" or "incorrect" but i will say it sure doesn't sound very good.

[AugieDonatelli]

if it was down, why did you call it a strike?

i'm not going to judge as to whether it's "correct" or "incorrect" but i will say it sure doesn't sound very good.

I think he meant a swinging strike, but I agree...I've never liked the phrase "ball is down" to describe a "no catch," whether on an uncaught 3rd strike or in the outfield. If a ball drops in for a routine hit, I will just say to my partner, "it's on the ground, Tom."

[renegadewolf]

I was working with a much more experienced ump than myself today who called the strike then simply said no catch. both calls were very easy to hear from behind 1st base... call it and call it loud... worked well for him

[TomClarke]

I think he meant a swinging strike, but I agree...I've never liked the phrase "ball is down" to describe a "no catch," whether on an uncaught 3rd strike or in the outfield. If a ball drops in for a routine hit, I will just say to my partner, "it's on the ground, Tom."

again, i'm not going to judge correct or incorrect, i'll just tell you what i think about this. i absolutely DO NOT teach the "ball's down," or "it's on the ground" mechanic and i try to unteach it to the new guys that learn it somewhere else. it's not taught at the schools and it's not used in the game. it is not necessary. if you were trained by me in this area...when the ball is in the PU's area of responsibility and it is caught, he'll either tell his partner, "catch, bill" or he will call the catch loudly if it was close. either way, the BU will hear him. if he doesn't hear something with "catch" in it ("catch bill," or "THAT'S A CATCH!") then guess what? the ball wasn't caught. and guess where it is if it wasn't caught? on the ground. you don't need to tell him that because by not telling him that it was a catch, you've already told him it's on the ground.

we're all familiar with the "fewer words the better" philosophy. what we, as a group, aren't all familiar with is that this philosophy does not only apply to arguments. some examples... the first is what i use, the second is well... (yes, i've actually heard all of these in games i've done as a trainer/evaluator)

ball - ball, that's outside and a little low
out - yes! yes! yes! the runner's out! he's ouuuuut!
safe - heeeeeeeee's in there!
time - "my time" "the ball is dead" "time is out" "wegot time"
that's a balk - no no no no no balk! balk! no! time!
foul - thaaaaaaaaaaat's a fooooouuuuuul baaaaaaaaaaaalll

you get the idea. the fewer words the better. players are not smart. they are used to hearing ball strike safe out foul time and sometimes balk. anything else we say or yell on the field usually has the effect of confusing people and stopping action. sometimes that is a good thing...like with balks, interference, obstruction and stuff like that. but adding in extra stuff that isn't necessary can lead to trouble. say what NEEDS to be said, keep it as short as possible, and whenever feasible, communicate without saying anything.

[AugieDonatelli]

I learned to say, "He's Out" or "No Catch" from pro umpires and pro school grads in the mid-1980s. We were taught to not say "Catch" or "That's a catch" because it sounded to much like "No catch." Many of us later adopted the "it's on the ground" because it's something just meant for your partner, not like the other calls you listed which are mainly meant for the players and coaches benefit.

I will try to pregame it the way you say, but it's hard to teach us old dogs new tricks. I am willing to change though, and will pass this bit of philosophy on to other association members.

By the way, I've never had the pleasure of using your bad examples. I always use the same words you do on those.

[bobjenkins]

if he doesn't hear something with "catch" in it ("catch bill," or "THAT'S A CATCH!") then guess what? the ball wasn't caught.

Or, the call wasn't loud enough. Or, the BU didn't hear it. Or, PU forgot to let me know.

While I agree with your logic, in practice, I'd prefer a "call" either way.

[BrianC14]

Or, the call wasn't loud enough. Or, the BU didn't hear it. Or, PU forgot to let me know.

While I agree with your logic, in practice, I'd prefer a "call" either way.

a) Then make the call loud enough.
b) BU has to be paying attention. Regardless, if it is caught, the B/R stopping will be a pretty clear sign.
c) Plate umpire shouldn't forget. DO it! It's all about good (read that: "Clear" communications.)

Our association teaches the "Ball's down" advisement (it isn't really a "call"), and some guys take the extra step and say, "Ball's on the fence, Tom" when it's in the gap and has found it's way through.

I got to thinking about that one day (could you smell the wood burning?) realized that saying that really helps the B/R ... "Hey, I could make 2nd, or 3rd!"

I think that Tom's advice here is sound (no pun intended): "That's a catch." is really all that's needed here. If it's down, say nothing. (Sort of like calling foul or signalling fair). The extra words/instructions aren't really necessary - - if you as the base umpire are hustling (and shouldn't you be, on every play?) then you're going to take that B/R as far as proper mechanics say you should.

(So much for the thread topic - sorry for continuing the hijack).

[jdmara]

Great Discussion on "No catch", "Ball is down", etc...Great thread because I am thinking about all the times I use little phrases like that in my game.

-Josh

[AugieDonatelli]

The reason I like the PU to tell me if the ball in on the ground or vice versa is so as BU, I'm not running towards second at full gallup along with the runner, while the caught ball is casually being thrown back in to the infield, while I look like a fool.

Unfortunately, every umpire in my group is taught to say "on the ground, (Name)!" when the ball is not caught, so if I don't hear that, I'm confused until I pick up the ball after the pivot. It's a little "heads up" so I can be ready to beat BR to 2nd, or be ready to angle back for a snap throw at 1st.

Sure, in pro ball, where everyone is doing it the same way, you can assume "no catch" if you don't hear anything. Here, with some guys, not hearing anything doesn't mean "no catch," it means "I have no clue, whadda you got, pivot boy?":)

And another reason it's not such a bad thing to do is this: The PU is near the mound, about 20 feet from BU, when he casually tells the BU, just loud enough for BUs benefit, not as a call to the players, that the ball is either caught or not caught. So this notion that it might confuse the players is a little weak. The players I umpire for are much sharper than that, and are watching the play. Why not, they don't have anything else to do.

[TomClarke]

this is why i've preceded things i've written with, "i'm not saying this is the right way," or, "i'm not judging," etc. you guys know the level of ball i'm coming from, and the quality of partners that i'm used to working with. you can do whatever it is you're comfortable doing, or whatever it is your association requires/suggests. the reason i post the things i do is because many of you, and many of your associations, think it would be beneficial to go to one of the pro schools if you can afford it (both finacially and at whatever perosoanl expense it may cause you) and this is what is taught at the schools and expected in the game. things are changed at the amateur level...some good, some bad, but the simple fact is that most of the guys you work with out there are not, nor ever will be, school graduates. take into consideration what i have to say as being what is taught to those that are able to go to a school, but, ultimately, do what works best for you and those you work with.

[lustersilk]

I think what Tom is saying is similiar to why we don't say "Fair Ball" on a close one that's fair. The non-verbal and signal is plenty of information to make the call on.

[cajunyankee]

My experience is mostly with the "I Have no idea. What have you got 'Pivot Boy'"

[heyblue26]

this is why i've preceded things i've written with, "i'm not saying this is the right way," or, "i'm not judging," etc. you guys know the level of ball i'm coming from, and the quality of partners that i'm used to working with. you can do whatever it is you're comfortable doing, or whatever it is your association requires/suggests. the reason i post the things i do is because many of you, and many of your associations, think it would be beneficial to go to one of the pro schools if you can afford it (both finacially and at whatever perosoanl expense it may cause you) and this is what is taught at the schools and expected in the game. things are changed at the amateur level...some good, some bad, but the simple fact is that most of the guys you work with out there are not, nor ever will be, school graduates. take into consideration what i have to say as being what is taught to those that are able to go to a school, but, ultimately, do what works best for you and those you work with.

I agree with you TomClarke