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DP
06-01-2009, 12:12 AM
My partner today asked how I would handle this. Bu in C position, runner on 2b. Slowly hit ball to the 3b side of the mound sort of forcing the Bu to concentrate on the ball. The pitcher or SS might be able to field it. Runner from second runs into the SS also moving to field the ball BUT behind the Bu. He said he was on the plate, definitely saw it, and jumped right in with Int. I said I thought I would have waited a second or two to see if the Bu picked it up since the first play in the infield is his territory but, I would have jumped in if I was sure he didn't/couldn't see the int. How would you guys handle this one???

orionrh
06-01-2009, 12:22 AM
I think the way the play was called is correct.

mazzamouth
06-01-2009, 03:15 AM
This is the BU calls, But if the PU saw it, he should wait to see if the BU say it. Then they can get together and talk to see if the BU maybe had the Pitcher or 3rd or SS protected, the BU might have had the 3rd protected therefore there would be no INT. but i think he should have waited... i know there is always another way to handle this, so i will wait to see what some of the other guys way.

SocalBlue1
06-01-2009, 05:23 AM
Interference & obstruction are shared calls. As mazzamouth said I slight hesitation would be appropriate to see how the play unfolds (IE: F1 fields the ball & we may have obstruction & not interference).

ExCop
06-01-2009, 01:06 PM
If the SS is the protected fielder:
If the interference happens behind the BU, and PU sees it, the PU calls it and kills the play. The ball is immediately dead in this sitch. R2 is out. BR gets first.

If the pitcher is the protected fielder:
Obstruction, PU makes the call since play is behind BU. Delayed dead ball. If BR is put out, and R2 ends up at 3rd, no award is necessary. If play is attempted on R2, kill the play and award 3rd. BR gets 1st.

With BU in B or C, PU makes OBS/INT calls that take place behind him.

Richard_Siegel
06-01-2009, 02:17 PM
If the SS is the protected fielder:
If the interference happens behind the BU, and PU sees it, the PU calls it and kills the play. The ball is immediately dead in this sitch. R2 is out. BR gets first.

If the pitcher is the protected fielder:
Obstruction, PU makes the call since play is behind BU. Delayed dead ball. If BR is put out, and R2 ends up at 3rd, no award is necessary. If play is attempted on R2, kill the play and award 3rd. BR gets 1st.

With BU in B or C, PU makes OBS/INT calls that take place behind him.

Yes to all of that... It looks bad for an OBS or INT to go uncalled when it is seen by an umpire for any length of time. I'm not saying the call should not be made if there is a hesitation. It should, but you might get an argument for letting it go too long.

Many have advised that the PU should wait to see who fields the ball or who is the protected fielder. That is true. But if you need to wait to determine those things then there has not been a violation yet. IOW, there is no OBS or INT to call yet because the play has not completed far enough to provide the PU with the required elements to make a proper call. It could be nothing! However, when the PU has made a determination as to want happened, INT, OBS or nothing, then he should no longer wait and make that call immediately.

I have made many OBS and INT calls from the plate on plays where I know the BU could not see it. i.e. When a batted ball is hit right at the BU some guys will literally dive off to the side and give up looking at the ball just to get away from being hit by the ball. In those situations the ball usually goes near a runner and fielder where some contact might occur. I have called OBS on F4's who get in R1's way on a steal of 2B. The throw goes to F6 on the bag while F4 runs into R1's path to slow him down. Many teams know that often neither umpire is looking at the runner, they are both watching the ball. Proper mechanics for the BU in the B position has his back to the potential OBS by F4. If you are the PU you do not need to follow the ball from F2 to the base. That's the BU's job. You need to be looking at R1 for OBS by F4 as he advances to 2B.

mazzamouth
06-02-2009, 04:25 AM
If the SS is the protected fielder:
If the interference happens behind the BU, and PU sees it, the PU calls it and kills the play. The ball is immediately dead in this sitch. R2 is out. BR gets first.

If the pitcher is the protected fielder:
Obstruction, PU makes the call since play is behind BU. Delayed dead ball. If BR is put out, and R2 ends up at 3rd, no award is necessary. If play is attempted on R2, kill the play and award 3rd. BR gets 1st.

With BU in B or C, PU makes OBS/INT calls that take place behind him.

Maybe im gonna ask a dumb question, ..... but how does this happen Behind the BU... is the BU not turning/ following the ball?... if so he should be right there watching the whole things..... Umpiring 101 Keep your chest to the ball. maybe im tired right now and being an idiot.

Richard_Siegel
06-02-2009, 12:05 PM
Maybe im gonna ask a dumb question, ..... but how does this happen Behind the BU... is the BU not turning/ following the ball?... if so he should be right there watching the whole things..... Umpiring 101 Keep your chest to the ball. maybe im tired right now and being an idiot.

Yes, you are absolutely right, the BU should be turning and following the batted ball. But one thing I have seen, as I wrote above, when a batted ball is hit right at the BU some guys will literally dive off in a panic to the side and give up looking at the ball just to get away from being hit by the ball. That often leads to the BU not looking at what happens behind him. I have also seen OBS happen when a ground ball is hit to an infielder who throws to 1B with a runner on 2B. The BU has to follow the ball to 1B for the play on the BR. Meanwhile R2 will begin to advance to 3B during the throw to 1B. During R2's crossing to 3B he can be obstructed by F6 or F5. That is another time the BU will have his back to the violation. The PU should be glancing at R2 to see if that happens.

ExCop
06-02-2009, 01:02 PM
Maybe im gonna ask a dumb question, ..... but how does this happen Behind the BU... is the BU not turning/ following the ball?... if so he should be right there watching the whole things..... Umpiring 101 Keep your chest to the ball. maybe im tired right now and being an idiot.

In addition to what Richard said, I can add that obstruction can - and does happen - behind the BU with a runner on second. I recall one game where the defensive manager had this thing where he would order his SS to literally run a circle around R2 when the pitch was going to the batter. I saw R2 take off on the pitch and put his shoulder into the SS - this was BEFORE the pitch was even struck at.

Obstruction. I killed it as PU as soon as F2 threw to third. Oh, forgot - I also tossed the DM when he hit the spin cycle on the call. Nice tactic, numnuts....

JBowling
06-02-2009, 04:04 PM
Maybe im gonna ask a dumb question, ..... but how does this happen Behind the BU... is the BU not turning/ following the ball?... if so he should be right there watching the whole things..... Umpiring 101 Keep your chest to the ball. maybe im tired right now and being an idiot.

One situation that I can think of where the BU wouldn't be turning is if the ball is a little squibber out into no man's land where the P, charging 3b or charging SS may be able to make the play, you're not going to turn because the ball is still in front of you.

Also, Richard, those are some situations that I never thought about in regards to the 2B cutting across a runner's path on a steal or F6 or F5 just standing in the base path admiring a throw that I never thought about happening but need to start watching for.

Richard_Siegel
06-02-2009, 04:14 PM
One situation that I can think of where the BU wouldn't be turning is if the ball is a little squibber out into no man's land where the P, charging 3b or charging SS may be able to make the play, you're not going to turn because the ball is still in front of you.

Also, Richard, those are some situations that I never thought about in regards to the 2B cutting across a runner's path on a steal or F6 or F5 just standing in the base path admiring a throw that I never thought about happening but need to start watching for.

I never thought about the situation you describe, where a little squibbler is hit out into no man's land where the P, 3B or SS is charging. You could have infielders getting in the runner's way behind the BU. Good point.

uame
06-02-2009, 04:26 PM
I recall one game where the defensive manager had this thing where he would order his SS to literally run a circle around R2 when the pitch was going to the batter. I saw R2 take off on the pitch and put his shoulder into the SS - this was BEFORE the pitch was even struck at.

Obstruction. I killed it as PU as soon as F2 threw to third. Oh, forgot - I also tossed the DM when he hit the spin cycle on the call. Nice tactic, numnuts....

Noob questions: When is this type of play dead? I assume the pitch to the batter and subsequent result is allowed to continue? Example situations:

R2 breaks to steal third on the pitch and is obstructed by SS. Batter base hit to F9, R2 thrown out at plate trying to score. Is R2 awarded the run because he could have made it safely if not obstructed at the beginning of the play?

What about R2 obstructed on steal, but batter lines out to F4 who then steps on 2b to double up R2? If R2 hadn't been obstructed, he would have been even further from 2b. Does he still get third, even though the batter is out?

Richard_Siegel
06-02-2009, 05:01 PM
Noob questions: When is this type of play dead? I assume the pitch to the batter and subsequent result is allowed to continue? Example situations:

R2 breaks to steal third on the pitch and is obstructed by SS. Batter base hit to F9, R2 thrown out at plate trying to score. Is R2 awarded the run because he could have made it safely if not obstructed at the beginning of the play?

What about R2 obstructed on steal, but batter lines out to F4 who then steps on 2b to double up R2? If R2 hadn't been obstructed, he would have been even further from 2b. Does he still get third, even though the batter is out?

Obstruction comes in two flavors: Type-A and Type-B (unless you're doing FED where it is always Type-B) These "types" coome from the two rules 7.06a and 7.06b.

Type-A is OBS where there is an immediate play being made on the obstructed runner, like in a rundown. In type-A OBS the ball is immediately dead and the runner is placed, usually at the next base, but it could be farther.

Type-B is OBS where there is no play being made on the obstructed runner, like when F3 hinders the BR while the ball is in the outfield and prevents or slows the BR down while he tries to advance to 2B. There are dozens of ways we can have type-B OBS. For Type-B OBS, the umpire points out the OBS, "That's obstruction!" but the ball stay live and the players should complete the play. After playing action has stopped, the umpire will call time and the obstructed runner is placed at the base the umpire believes he would have reached had there been no obstruction, usually at the next base, but it could be farther. Note that an obstructed runner can be retired with type-B OBS. If the runner advances beyond the base the umpire has "protected" him to, the runner is on his own and can be put out. OBS is not a free pass for runners.

Your play: R2 breaks to steal third on the pitch and is obstructed by SS. Batter base hit to F9, R2 thrown out at plate trying to score. Is R2 awarded the run because he could have made it safely if not obstructed at the beginning of the play?

You are right. This type-B. If in the umpire's judgment R2 would have scored on that play had there been no obstruction, then the umpire will award R2 to home plate, nullify the out, and score the run despite the fact he was "tagged" by the defense at HP.

Your play: What about R2 obstructed on steal, but batter lines out to F4 who then steps on 2b to double up R2? If R2 hadn't been obstructed, he would have been even further from 2b. Does he still get third, even though the batter is out?

This is an interesting play! This type-B. It would have to depend on the actual OBS you observe. If R2 was tripped and fell down because of the OBS (by F6?) then he would not have been able to get up and try to get back to 2B in time. R2 is awarded 3B at the end of the play. The batter is still out. However, if the OBS was minimal, like a studder step and R2 was still on his way to 3B such that, and as you pointed out he would have been even further from 2B. I might allow the second out to be recorded on R2 as well. You have to decide would R2 have not been retired on that play had there been no obstruction? The benefit of the doubt should always go to the runner. OBS is an infraction of the rules and it should be enforced if you are not sure.

eyb_uic
06-02-2009, 05:23 PM
Your play: What about R2 obstructed on steal, but batter lines out to F4 who then steps on 2b to double up R2? If R2 hadn't been obstructed, he would have been even further from 2b. Does he still get third, even though the batter is out?

This is an interesting play! This type-B. It would have to depend on the actual OBS you observe. If R2 was tripped and fell down because of the OBS (by F6?) then he would not have been able to get up and try to get back to 2B in time. R2 is awarded 3B at the end of the play. The batter is still out. However, if the OBS was minimal, like a studder step and R2 was still on his way to 3B such that, and as you pointed out he would have been even further from 2B. I might allow the second out to be recorded on R2 as well. You have to decide would R2 have not been retired on that play had there been no obstruction? The benefit of the doubt should always go to the runner. OBS is an infraction of the rules and it should be enforced if you are not sure.

I am likely wrong here but oh well. Basis is OBR not Fed. If that is the difference let me know.

It was my understanding that OBS does not have to result in an advance of the runner in this situation. He is protected to the base he would have aquired had no OBS occured. In the above situation the best the runner could have hoped for was getting back to 2nd before F4. So I would not be giving him 3rd but placing him back at 2nd.

Richard_Siegel
06-02-2009, 06:49 PM
I am likely wrong here but oh well. Basis is OBR not Fed. If that is the difference let me know.

It was my understanding that OBS does not have to result in an advance of the runner in this situation. He is protected to the base he would have acquired had no OBS occurred. In the above situation the best the runner could have hoped for was getting back to 2nd before F4. So I would not be giving him 3rd but placing him back at 2nd.

Since OBS is an infraction, the defense pays a penalty by having the runner who was obstructed awarded his advanced base. "One base beyond the base he last legally occupied. For instance, if a runner is in a rundown between 2B and 3B, and he is obstructed while trying to get back to 2B he will be awarded 3B, despite the fact that the best the runner could have hoped for was getting back to 2B. The extra base is a penalty to the defense.

eyb_uic
06-02-2009, 07:45 PM
Since OBS is an infraction, the defense pays a penalty by having the runner who was obstructed awarded his advanced base. "One base beyond the base he last legally occupied. For instance, if a runner is in a rundown between 2B and 3B, and he is obstructed while trying to get back to 2B he will be awarded 3B, despite the fact that the best the runner could have hoped for was getting back to 2B. The extra base is a penalty to the defense.

Is this the same for OBS where no play is being made on the runner, 7.06(b).

Batter hits one hopper hits to F7, as BR is rounding 1st he collides with F3, the throw to second is to cut off man F6. BR had zero chance of getting to second and wasn't attempting to and no play is being made just throwing the ball into the infield. Does BR still get second or leave him on first? (sorry if answered earlier in thread.)

Pete_Booth
06-02-2009, 08:41 PM
Is this the same for OBS where no play is being made on the runner, 7.06(b).

Batter hits one hopper hits to F7, as BR is rounding 1st he collides with F3, the throw to second is to cut off man F6. BR had zero chance of getting to second and wasn't attempting to and no play is being made just throwing the ball into the infield. Does BR still get second or leave him on first? (sorry if answered earlier in thread.)

Under OBR Type B OBS it is possible to offer No protection at all because of the following

The umpire shall then call “Time” and impose such penalties, if any, as in his judgment will nullify the act of obstruction.

Notice the phrase IF ANY which means just that.

Pete Booth

umpire29
06-02-2009, 11:18 PM
Another perhaps dumb question but what is a "protected Fielder" ?

Richard_Siegel
06-02-2009, 11:55 PM
Another perhaps dumb question but what is a "protected Fielder" ?

The "PF" (protected fielder) is the fielder whom the umpire judges has the best opportunity to field the batted ball. If a runner hinders a PF while trying to field a batted ball the runner will be charged with interference and he will be called out. Otherwise, if there is a runner who is hindered by a fielder who is not a PF, then the fielder will be charged with obstruction which may result in the runner being awarded a base.

The PF concept most comes into play where more than one fielder is going after a ball and a runner is somewhere in the mix too. If there is a collision or hinderence that involves the runner and a fielder, the umpire has to determine if the fielder involved is the protected fielder so he determine whether there will be OBS or INT called.

For example, the batter hits a high fly ball that is coming down where both the third baseman and the shortstop can catch it. The runner from 2B is crossing to 3B while the two infielders are looking up to catch the ball. The runner accidentally collides with F5 and ball is not caught. If the umpire decided that F5 was the PF, then R2 would be called out for interference. However, if the umpire decided that F6 was the PF, then obstruction would be called on F5 and R2 would be awarded 3B.

eyb_uic
06-03-2009, 03:40 PM
For example, the batter hits a high fly ball that is coming down where both the third baseman and the shortstop can catch it. The runner from 2B is crossing to 3B while the two infielders are looking up to catch the ball. The runner accidentally collides with F5 and ball is not caught. If the umpire decided that F5 was the PF, then R2 would be called out for interference. However, if the umpire decided that F6 was the PF, then obstruction would be called on F5 and R2 would be awarded 3B.

Trying to understand above situation.
No play is being made on R2, play is being made on BR so wouldn't 7.06(b) be the rule? If F6 catches the fly ball why does R2 get 3B? And is BR out?

My quick thought:
If ball is caught by F6: R2 back to 2B due to OBS, BR out. (assuming less than 2 outs)
If ball is dropped by F6: R2 to 3B, Br on first.