Check Swing Appeal

[calvinhess]

This has not happened to me...yet, but I wanted an opinion before it does. My question is "Can the offensive team appeal a check swing?". I know, 'why would they?' Heres my situation: No outs noone on. Count 2-2 on BR. F1 throws a breaking pitch, BR 'thinks' he goes around on the swing, but F2 blocks PUs view. Call is "Ball" Ball skips away from F2, BR didnt hear call, runs to 1st, safe. Can Offensive coach ask for an appeal, since if BU calls 'strike' he is on due to D3K?

[BrianC14]

This has not happened to me...yet, but I wanted an opinion before it does. My question is "Can the offensive team appeal a check swing?". I know, 'why would they?' Heres my situation: No outs noone on. Count 2-2 on BR. F1 throws a breaking pitch, BR 'thinks' he goes around on the swing, but F2 blocks PUs view. Call is "Ball" Ball skips away from F2, BR didnt hear call, runs to 1st, safe. Can Offensive coach ask for an appeal, since if BU calls 'strike' he is on due to D3K?

Nope.

Back to the box, 3-2 count. Nice try. Do the windsprints on your own time, batter.

[eyb_uic]

Nope.

Back to the box, 3-2 count. Nice try. Do the windsprints on your own time, batter.

9.02(c) Comment: Says the manager or catcher can appeal a check swing it does not say defensive manager. So why couldn't the offensive manager request the appeal?

[BrianC14]

9.02(c) Comment: Says the manager or catcher can appeal a check swing it does not say defensive manager. So why couldn't the offensive manager request the appeal?

Because of what it doesn't say.. "offensive manager". The comment refers to the catcher or the manager - which implies the defensive manager.

In the OP case, the offense is trying to appeal in order to gain an advantage. That alone tells me why they can't appeal.

[CoachJM]

From the MLBUM:

...Under the Official Baseball Rules, the plate umpire has an obligation to ask for help when the
catcher or manager of the defensive team requests an appeal.

JM

[eyb_uic]

From the MLBUM:
...Under the Official Baseball Rules, the plate umpire has an obligation to ask for help when the
catcher or manager of the defensive team requests an appeal.


JM

That seems very cut and dry. The 2008 MLB rules do not include the word "defensive". I do not have the MLBUM. Thanks.

[bobjenkins]

That was a question on the NCAA test last(?) year. According to the answer, yes, the offense can appeal the "no swing".

[scumpire]

OBR Rule 2:00 An APPEAL is the act of a fielder in claiming violation of the rules by the offensive team.

Therefore the offense cannot appeal anything.

Example: Check swing. PU says yes he did. Offense asks PU to appeal to BU that he didn't go.

You would never allow this b/c it is not allowed by the rules.

[BT_Blue]

That was a question on the NCAA test last(?) year. According to the answer, yes, the offense can appeal the "no swing".

Thank god I didnt come across that question last year... I would have totally missed it.

[HugoTafurst]

OBR Rule 2:00 An APPEAL is the act of a fielder in claiming violation of the rules by the offensive team.

Therefore the offense cannot appeal anything.

Example: Check swing. PU says yes he did. Offense asks PU to appeal to BU that he didn't go.

You would never allow this b/c it is not allowed by the rules.

Although the term "appeal" is commonly used, asking for help on a checked swing does not fall under the Rulebook definition of Appeal.

It is a totally different animal..

[scumpire]

Look at OBR 9.02(c) comment part of it says: The manager or catcher may request the plate umpire to ask for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike....

Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing.

So the definition of appeal still applies here because you are honoring the request of the defense to ask for help on the check swing but it would not be allowed for the offense to try to get the call reversed from a strike to a ball.

[mr umpire]

Back to the OP. While I agree the offense can't appeal, the next step falls on the BU.

This was covered on a different thread but here it is again.
As the BU, there are 2 choices here and I am for the latter choice:
1) BU gives the "Voluntary" strike signal. Which means, if he thinks the defense might appeal and the BU is going to signal strike, then he "voluntarily" gives the strike call so everyone knows the situation. This is something which needs to be addressed in pregame b/c the PU should go immediately on a questionable check swing appeal.

2) BU waits for PU's appeal. If given immediately, then BU signals what he has. If not, then BU signals safe to prevent the defense from getting an unfair advantage.

The reason I bring this up is b/c of how it now has to be handled if the PU denies the OM's appeal. But, when the batter comes back, then the DC wants to appeal.

[scumpire]

Are you saying as a base umpire you would signal "yes he went" without the plate umpire asking you? That's what it sounds like in your part of your post.

I agree that this situation could be prevented by the plate umpire immediately going to the base umpire for help so that everyone can have the benefit of knowing what is going on. But as a base umpire, don’t ever signal the strike unless asked.

[bobjenkins]

Are you saying as a base umpire you would signal "yes he went" without the plate umpire asking you? That's what it sounds like in your part of your post.

I agree that this situation could be prevented by the plate umpire immediately going to the base umpire for help so that everyone can have the benefit of knowing what is going on. But as a base umpire, don’t ever signal the strike unless asked.

What was described is the MLBUM mechanic on a D3K, when the BR can become a runner, and when the BU would have a strike -- only if all three conditions are met does the Bu give the "pre-emptive" strike call.

Use it, or not, at your level.

[mr umpire]

Are you saying as a base umpire you would signal "yes he went" without the plate umpire asking you? That's what it sounds like in your part of your post.

I agree that this situation could be prevented by the plate umpire immediately going to the base umpire for help so that everyone can have the benefit of knowing what is going on. But as a base umpire, don’t ever signal the strike unless asked.

This has to be covered in a pregame. And, if decided to go with this mechanic as described by both PBUC and MLBUM, then, yes, I would signal it without being asked. But, I am for waiting for PU and handling it as I see fit to not put a team at a disadvantage b/c the PU can't do his job properly.

[scumpire]

What part of the manual says to reverse an umpire's decision without him asking you for help? OBR 9.02 (c) No umpire shall seek to reverse with another umpire's decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it. The plate umpire needs to go to his partner immediately so that everyone can have the benefit of knowing the situation. As a base umpire you don't just signal a strike. How would anyone know you signaled it since everyone will be watching the plate umpire?

[mr umpire]

You don't have to do it. This is something to be worked out with your partner. But, it is in the PBUC and MLBUM under "Voluntary Strike". It's there. I'll get exact pages for you later.

[HugoTafurst]

Look at OBR 9.02(c) comment part of it says: The manager or catcher may request the plate umpire to ask for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike....

Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing.

So the definition of appeal still applies here because you are honoring the request of the defense to ask for help on the check swing but it would not be allowed for the offense to try to get the call reversed from a strike to a ball.


It's a matter of semantics...
the 9.02 (c) use of the word does not go with the 2.00 definition, which applies to missed bases, leaving before the touch of a fly ball, etc and can only be made by the defensive fielder (not manager or coach)
Sorry I brought it up, it's just clouding the issue.

[heyblue26]

You don't have to do it. This is something to be worked out with your partner. But, it is in the PBUC and MLBUM under "Voluntary Strike". It's there. I'll get exact pages for you later.

It can be found on the following pages in the PBUC, P-5 (1.13 checked Swings) (2004) and in the MLBUM (8.7 " Voluntary Strike") P-87 (2007) editions.

This explains the guidance that is given to the umpires by both PBUC and MLB.

[scumpire]

I don't see anything in the PBUC manual about "voluntary strike." Don't know about MLBUM. The PBUC manual says that the plate umpire should go to the BU IMMEDIATELY so that both teams can quickly be advised as to what the final call is.

It does not say anything about a BU calling a check swing on his own. This would be stepping on your partner’s toes.

[heyblue26]

I don't see anything in the PBUC manual about "voluntary strike." Don't know about MLBUM. The PBUC manual says that the plate umpire should go to the BU IMMEDIATELY so that both teams can quickly be advised as to what the final call is.

It does not say anything about a BU calling a check swing on his own. This would be stepping on your partner’s toes.

It is listed in both MANUALS as stated on the pages and under the topic that was posted. check post #19
In the MLBUM (Voluntary Strike 8.7) and in the PBUC is is under (1.13 Checked Swings) Check it out if you have the manuals.

And No the BU wouldn't make a call on a check swing on his own unless asked by the PU.

[scumpire]

Okay, so everyone agrees the BU is not to signal what he has on a check swing until the PU asks? When reading some earlier posts it sounded as if you were saying the BU should go ahead and signal a swing or no swing without the PU asking.

[Richard_Siegel]

Okay, so everyone agrees the BU is not to signal what he has on a check swing until the PU asks? When reading some earlier posts it sounded as if you were saying the BU should go ahead and signal a swing or no swing without the PU asking.

Yes, In a very limited set of circumstances.

[scumpire]

What circumstance?

[mr umpire]

Okay, so everyone agrees the BU is not to signal what he has on a check swing until the PU asks? When reading some earlier posts it sounded as if you were saying the BU should go ahead and signal a swing or no swing without the PU asking.

Generally, no, I would not "volunteer" a strike call as BU. If my partner and I did not agree on it before the game which I would hope he does his job and not rely on me to do it b/c he doesn't want to call swings. As I stated before, I would only do it if my partner and I agreed on it before the game and a situation arises such as PU gets distracted/entangled by what is going on or something.

But, if my partner goes down by being struck by the ball or some other reason I see him go down, then I would "volunteer" it. But, I would probably be calling "Time" out of reaction rather than worrying about if the pitch was a strike or not. It depends on how fast everything unfolds.

So, as a general rule, I would wait for PU to appeal to me unless one of the previous items occur.

[scumpire]

So basically in the case where the plate umpire is struck by lightning during a check swing then the BU should signal on the check swing before the plate umpire asks him to.

[Richard_Siegel]

What circumstance?

As is done in professional baseball, when there is a count like 3-2, where the batter may become a runner if the batter checks his swing on the next pitch and if it is a 3rd strike uncaught by the catcher, if the PU says "no he didn't go!" and a subsequent checked swing appeal is called a strike "Yes he did," by the BU, the batter would be put at a disadvantage waiting at HP for the BU to give his decision while the catcher has the extra time to go pick up the ball.

So in professional baseball, in that situation the BU will immediately, without waiting for an appeal, give an immediate decision.

[cbfoulds]

So basically in the case where the plate umpire is struck by lightning during a check swing then the BU should signal on the check swing before the plate umpire asks him to.

OK, hate to sound elitist, but to some degree this is an "advanced" mechanic, and if you really have to ask, you probably ain't "advanced" enough [or your typical partners aren't] to consider using it....

IF ...
you are the BU, the count is x-2 and the sitch would allow B to run on an uncaught 3d strike;

AND IF ...
B CLEARLY, unequivocally, unmistakably offers at the pitch, which ends up uncaught;

AND IF FURTHER ...
PU does NOT call a strike, nor immediately come to you: "Did he go?", and F2 does NOT scoop up the ball and immediately Tag B[BR];

And FINALLY IF ...
B[BR] shows any inclination to run or confusion about same: ....

THEN...
you MIGHT consider volunteering your ruling w/o being asked.

But you probably should have pregamed this with your partner, who should exhibit an awareness and acceptance of when and why this mechanic would be appropriate. If when you raise the subject, you get either resistance or that familiar "lights are on, nobody home" look ... you might consider if using this "advanced" mechanic would be likely to create a bigger s#!tstorm than it is intended to prevent.

[scumpire]

There's no way this is used in professional baseball. How would anyone know to look at the base umpire for a decision without the plate umpire pointing and asking him for the appeal?

As stated in the PBUC manual you avoid confusing anyone by the plate umpire going IMMEDIATELY to the base umpire. Professionals do this and it would never come to the base umpire having to signal without being asked.

There's nothing advanced about this mechanic. If anything it is asking for a circus regardless of what level you're at.

[Richard_Siegel]

There's no way this is used in professional baseball. How would anyone know to look at the base umpire for a decision without the plate umpire pointing and asking him for the appeal?

As stated in the PBUC manual you avoid confusing anyone by the plate umpire going IMMEDIATELY to the base umpire. Professionals do this and it would never come to the base umpire having to signal without being asked.

There's nothing advanced about this mechanic. If anything it is asking for a circus regardless of what level you're at.

Looks like we have a former or current professional umpire who can be so certain of what is and what is not done by professional umpires. If it might help you to accept this mechanic, I was at the Southern Umpire Camp in 1998 when asked Paul Nauert, MLB, why he ejected Bobby Valentine in a Mets game during the 1997 season that I attended. He explained that he used the very "no-ask" appeal mechanic that I described above. Valentine came out to ask Paul why he said "yes he did" when not asked. Paul explained why the "no-ask" appeal mechanic is used. A reasonable question. However, then Bobby asked him why he could have called it a strike when (Bobby) felt the batter did not offer. Whooooshhh... That's arguing balls & strikes, which is especially ejectable, when it is done to the base umpire responding to a checked swing appeal.

So at least we know it was done at least once in 1997. It is poosible that was the last time it was every done and the MLB level.

[torquer]

There's no way this is used in professional baseball. How would anyone know to look at the base umpire for a decision without the plate umpire pointing and asking him for the appeal?

As stated in the PBUC manual you avoid confusing anyone by the plate umpire going IMMEDIATELY to the base umpire. Professionals do this and it would never come to the base umpire having to signal without being asked.

There's nothing advanced about this mechanic. If anything it is asking for a circus regardless of what level you're at.

scumpire, Zeus has spoken and your just supposed to listen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! J/K

Jess

[bobjenkins]

There's no way this is used in professional baseball.

It seems to me that there are two options here:

1) You're right. It's all a big hoax promulgated by MLB and MiLB to get this so-called "ruling" published in the books, and explained at camps, but to have the umpires told in double-secret meetings not to use it, just to try to trip up unsuspecting amateur umpires.

IElvis, the abominable snowman and the loch ness monster will confirm this tonight when I check with them aboard the UFO.

2) Everything else.

[ExCop]

My partners and I do discuss this in our pre-game meeting, but the overwhelming response is that they do NOT want to use it.

Hey, at least we discussed it...!

[mr umpire]

The mechanic was offered. You don't have to do it. But, if it is done, well, it is b/c the manuals say it is a very valid option.

[ExCop]

The mechanic was offered. You don't have to do it. But, if it is done, well, it is b/c the manuals say it is a very valid option.

When I am the PU, and I ask my partners to do this, they are not comfortable with it and decline. When I am the BU, and I offer to do it, they're like, "No way!"

[mr umpire]

When I am the PU, and I ask my partners to do this, they are not comfortable with it and decline. When I am the BU, and I offer to do it, they're like, "No way!"

My comment wasn't directed at you. And, as you stated, you pregamed it with your partner. Then, you know how to handle it during the game.

My comment was for the ones not accepting this valid mechanic. It doesn't have to be done especially at our level. But, if it is done, then it is very valid option and should be accepted(whether or not to do it is a totally different subject).

[scumpire]

It is not in the latest PBUC manual.

So the last time it was used was 12 years ago and it lead to an ejection at the major league level!

Sounds like Bobby Cox would have stayed in the game if the PU had just gone immediately to his partner. Then, he wouldn't have been presented with an opportunity to leave his position to argue balls and strikes.

[bobjenkins]

It is not in the latest PBUC manual.

I don't have it here to check, so I'll take your word for it.

That said, PBUC does NOT apply to MLB (only to MiLB).

[KenGibes]

I was fortunate enough to see it done right last night. D'Backs/Dodgers game. With 2 strikes on the batter there was a check swing on a bounced-in breaking ball that the catcher had to block.

PU C.B. Bucknor immediately went to U1 Angel Campos, who immediately returned a "safe" sign.

The whole thing happened in a flash and was finished before the catcher recovered the baseball.

[seth503]

It is not in the latest PBUC manual.

So the last time it was used was 12 years ago and it lead to an ejection at the major league level!

Sounds like Bobby Cox would have stayed in the game if the PU had just gone immediately to his partner. Then, he wouldn't have been presented with an opportunity to leave his position to argue balls and strikes.

According to some here who actually were pro umpires, PBUC can and does change mechanics without putting them in the manual.

Look, you've been told how it is. Repeatedly. All I would say is, (1) if you don't like it don't use it, but there is a good reason it exists. And (2), Bobby Cox was arguing balls and strikes at his christening.

[scumpire]

I was fortunate enough to see it done right last night. D'Backs/Dodgers game. With 2 strikes on the batter there was a check swing on a bounced-in breaking ball that the catcher had to block.

PU C.B. Bucknor immediately went to U1 Angel Campos, who immediately returned a "safe" sign.

The whole thing happened in a flash and was finished before the catcher recovered the baseball.

But Angel did not signal until C.B. asked him.

Okay, it is not in the PBUC manual, which is for MiLB umpires training to be MLB umpires, but it is allegedly in the MLB manual. That should tell that MLB guys are the only ones "advanced" enough to use it. Even though it was only supposedly used once 12 years ago and lead to an ejection.