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Lancerdad34
05-08-2009, 01:22 PM
This is LL Majors 12 year olds. I got this email from our LL president.

I was at a Majors game with (name removed) and listened to one of his coaches ordering the batters to crowd the plate to the point of their toes touching it.
The purpose was to try and either get whacked by a pitch or force the pitcher to throw outside forcing a walk. He lost to 10 - 0, had kids biting the dust to get out of the way and never gave them a chance to get a hit from that position in the box.

I know rule 6.03 and 6.06 a covers this. Can I instruct our umpires to warn then eject the coach for putting his players in harms way? This guy has always been a royal pain and I want to make sure we do this the right way.

Thanks,
Brian
UIC L'anse Cruese LL
Harrison Twp Mi

Richard_Siegel
05-08-2009, 01:41 PM
This is LL Majors 12 year olds. I got this email from our LL president.

I was at a Majors game with (name removed) and listened to one of his coaches ordering the batters to crowd the plate to the point of their toes touching it.
The purpose was to try and either get whacked by a pitch or force the pitcher to throw outside forcing a walk. He lost to 10 - 0, had kids biting the dust to get out of the way and never gave them a chance to get a hit from that position in the box.

I know rule 6.03 and 6.06 a covers this. Can I instruct our umpires to warn then eject the coach for putting his players in harms way? This guy has always been a royal pain and I want to make sure we do this the right way.

Thanks,
Brian
UIC L'anse Cruese LL
Harrison Twp Mi

If the kids are taking a position, as you write, to "crowd the plate to the point of their toes touching it," then the umpires are not doing their job.

The batter is not allowed to take a position in the box where his feet extend beyond the lines of the batter's box. If the batter takes a position in the box where his feet extend beyond the lines of the box, the umpire should stop the pitcher from pitching and order the batter to adjust his feet to comply with the rules. If the batter's toes are touching HP he is illegal. The umpire should order the batter to reset his feet to be within the lines of the box. You need to remind the umpire-in-chief of your league to instruct his umpires to enforce this rule. See rule 6.03. If the umpires do their job, then the coach ordering his batters to crowd the plate is taking out of the problem.

Another point to note: if the batter is crowding the plate to the point his toes are touching HP, if he is hit by the pitch it is likely the pitch could have been in the strike zone. A pitch that is a strike that touches the batter is a dead ball and the batter does NOT get awarded first base. The umpires who are working the games for this team must be reminded to look for this. If the coach's strategy is to put his kids so close to HP to get hit, if they are hit and they are not awarded first base because the pitch is called a strike then he might figure out that his strategy is not working.

Once the pitcher throws a pitch the batter may adjust his feet to try and hit the ball. If during the time the ball is on the way to the plate the batter's feet move partially beyond the lines of the box when he hits the ball it is legal. However, it is illegal if either of the batter's feet are on the ground and completely outside the lines of the box when he hits the ball. The penalty is the ball is dead and the batter is called out.

It is important to note that if the batter takes an illegal a position where his feet extend beyond the lines of the box, and the umpire does NOT stop the pitcher from pitching and order the batter to adjust his feet to comply with the rules, then the batter should NOT be called out for the violation. The umpire can not play "got-cha" if he fails to do his job and correct the batter. The umpire can not penalize a player for a violation that he could have corrected. It is no different than if the batter comes up to bat without his batting helmet on, or the catcher comes out to play without his catcher's mask on. The umpire must correct the batter.

dash_riprock
05-08-2009, 01:48 PM
The umpire must correct the batter.
And if the batter refuses, just start ringing up strikes.

Richard_Siegel
05-08-2009, 01:57 PM
And if the batter refuses, just start ringing up strikes.

That is true. I have noticed that when a batter sets up very far from the plate, bails as the pitch arrives, or crowds the plate it distorts the batter's perception of the strike zone and also for the coaches observing from the sides. It allows the umpire widen the strike zone substantially (if necessary) easily adding 6 inches to the inside and/or outside, and a little more going north and south too. If the catcher receives the ball in a credible way (so it looks like a strike) ring it up baby!

Lancerdad34
05-08-2009, 02:04 PM
Richard,

I am the Umpire-In-Chief and have advised our umpires how to handle this based on your advice. Thanks to you and all on this forum for all the great advice that helps all of us do a better job!

Brian UIC LCLL
Harrsion Twp MI

dash_riprock
05-08-2009, 02:48 PM
That is true. I have noticed that when a batter sets up very far from the plate, bails as the pitch arrives, or crowds the plate it distorts the batter's perception of the strike zone and also for the coaches observing from the sides. It allows the umpire widen the strike zone substantially (if necessary) easily adding 6 inches to the inside and/or outside, and a little more going north and south too. If the catcher receives the ball in a credible way (so it looks like a strike) ring it up baby!
What I meant was, if the batter refuses to take his (legal) position in the box, ring up a strike without a pitch. If he still refuses to comply, ring up another, then another. What a simple game!

Richard_Siegel
05-08-2009, 03:01 PM
What I meant was, if the batter refuses to take his (legal) position in the box, ring up a strike without a pitch. If he still refuses to comply, ring up another, then another. What a simple game!

Well if that is your approach, it might be contrary to the rules, 6.02c says "If the batter refuses to take his position in the batter's box during his time at bat, the umpire shall order the pitcher to pitch, and shall call "Strike" on each such pitch." You have to make the pitcher throw the ball.

However, you could also go with 9.01b "Each umpire has authority to order a player, coach, manager ... to do or refrain from doing anything which affects the administering of these rules, and to enforce the prescribed penalties." Basically the penalty for refusing to follow your order to get into the box is that you can dump him.

dash_riprock
05-08-2009, 03:11 PM
Well if that is your approach, it might be contrary to the rules, 6.02c says "If the batter refuses to take his position in the batter's box during his time at bat, the umpire shall order the pitcher to pitch, and shall call "Strike" on each such pitch." You have to make the pitcher throw the ball.

However, you could also go with 9.01b "Each umpire has authority to order a player, coach, manager ... to do or refrain from doing anything which affects the administering of these rules, and to enforce the prescribed penalties." Basically the penalty for refusing to follow your order to get into the box is that you can dump him.

6.02(c): "If the batter refuses to take his position in the batter’s box during his time at bat, the umpire shall call a strike on the batter. The ball is dead, and no runners may advance. After the penalty, the batter may take his proper position and the regular ball and strike count shall continue. If the batter does not take his proper position before three strikes have been called, the batter shall be declared out."

My source is:
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules//06_the_batter.pdf
Could that be dated?

Rich_Ives
05-08-2009, 03:39 PM
6.02(c): "If the batter refuses to take his position in the batter’s box during his time at bat, the umpire shall call a strike on the batter. The ball is dead, and no runners may advance. After the penalty, the batter may take his proper position and the regular ball and strike count shall continue. If the batter does not take his proper position before three strikes have been called, the batter shall be declared out."

My source is:
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules//06_the_batter.pdf
Could that be dated?

Nope - it'e the new version. No pitch need be thrown.

FYI LL made the same change.

BrianC14
05-08-2009, 04:35 PM
Kind of makes you wonder where the parents are while this is going on.

Their kids are being *ahem* "taught" bad / illegal practices by a certifiable moron.
If my child were on this team, we'd find a new team, or a new league, or we'd find another sport that lil' Johnny would enjoy.

Unbelievable.

Richard_Siegel
05-08-2009, 06:57 PM
6.02(c): "If the batter refuses to take his position in the batter’s box during his time at bat, the umpire shall call a strike on the batter. The ball is dead, and no runners may advance. After the penalty, the batter may take his proper position and the regular ball and strike count shall continue. If the batter does not take his proper position before three strikes have been called, the batter shall be declared out."

My source is:
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules//06_the_batter.pdf
Could that be dated?

I have an old file I guess!

Dragon29
05-08-2009, 11:08 PM
There's an aspect of this that hasn't been addressed yet.

If a manager or coach instructs his players to crowd in the manner described in the OP, and if you as PU instruct the batter to get back in the box legally, and this continues throughout the at-bat, or at least once per at-bat for the next few hitters, it's time to go speak with the manager and order him to tell his players to not do that. If it happens one more time after that, eject the manager.

In LL Majors (11-12) I'd be hard-pressed to eject a kid for following his manager's directions - makes more sense to me to dump the rat.

BrianC14
05-08-2009, 11:16 PM
There's an aspect of this that hasn't been addressed yet.

If a manager or coach instructs his players to crowd in the manner described in the OP, and if you as PU instruct the batter to get back in the box legally, and this continues throughout the at-bat, or at least once per at-bat for the next few hitters, it's time to go speak with the manager and order him to tell his players to not do that. If it happens one more time after that, eject the manager.

In LL Majors (11-12) I'd be hard-pressed to eject a kid for following his manager's directions - makes more sense to me to dump the rat.


I agree. You have to fix the problem here, and the problem isn't with the kids. ;)

postman
05-08-2009, 11:48 PM
Ok, new kid on the block question:

Ok, I need to understand this debate (and have read debates on this subject in this forum so maybe I misunderstand) . I will rewrite based on what I am reading now:

BEFORE THE PITCH: The batters feet must be in the box - completely. His toes can not be outside the box. so, if the batter stands next to the plate and crowds it - his toes can not be beyond the line - is that correct? So, in an extreme example, his heels are on the batter box line or even in the batter box line and his toes are at/near/touching the plate - that is illegal and a ump should tell him to back up? I am asking becuase I am in different league and some of the little tykes do squeeze the plate based on coaches - but their feet are in or on the line - which is ok. On the other hand, I have little tykes that are so far from the plate their bat can barely reach it... If his foot touches the plate and his heels are in/on the batter box - it is a strike?

Heck I had one kid so small and far away from the plate - the catcher wasn't even over the plate. I had to move them BOTH over to the plate - lol. Seriously. But i did it.

AFTER PITCH DELIVERED: Regardless of where the batter lined up (well assuming his feet are "legal". batter swings: when he swings his foot straddles the batter box line and his foot also touches home plate. I thought I read on here that was a legal swing and he should not be declared out. He would be out if his foot was completely outside the line and/or "on the plate" in this case. Clarifiy please - and yes, I am going to go look this up as well. I did have that instance several times last week. But if his foot touches plate, but other part of foot is on teh line, that is ok. correct or not?


I had this situation last week with 9 yr olds. Foot up to line, but starts in the box. But when he swings, his foot straddles the box and touches both the box and the plate. I thought I read on here that was ok. As long as part of his foot was in/touching the box.

And no, I don't have this issue with my older kids either coaching or umping. It is a stupid place to be in the batter's box in my opinion.

dash_riprock
05-09-2009, 01:08 AM
Ok, new kid on the block question:

Ok, I need to understand this debate (and have read debates on this subject in this forum so maybe I misunderstand) . I will rewrite based on what I am reading now:

BEFORE THE PITCH: The batters feet must be in the box - completely. His toes can not be outside the box. so, if the batter stands next to the plate and crowds it - his toes can not be beyond the line - is that correct? So, in an extreme example, his heels are on the batter box line or even in the batter box line and his toes are at/near/touching the plate - that is illegal and a ump should tell him to back up? I am asking becuase I am in different league and some of the little tykes do squeeze the plate based on coaches - but their feet are in or on the line - which is ok. On the other hand, I have little tykes that are so far from the plate their bat can barely reach it... If his foot touches the plate and his heels are in/on the batter box - it is a strike?

Heck I had one kid so small and far away from the plate - the catcher wasn't even over the plate. I had to move them BOTH over to the plate - lol. Seriously. But i did it.

AFTER PITCH DELIVERED: Regardless of where the batter lined up (well assuming his feet are "legal". batter swings: when he swings his foot straddles the batter box line and his foot also touches home plate. I thought I read on here that was a legal swing and he should not be declared out. He would be out if his foot was completely outside the line and/or "on the plate" in this case. Clarifiy please - and yes, I am going to go look this up as well. I did have that instance several times last week. But if his foot touches plate, but other part of foot is on teh line, that is ok. correct or not?


I had this situation last week with 9 yr olds. Foot up to line, but starts in the box. But when he swings, his foot straddles the box and touches both the box and the plate. I thought I read on here that was ok. As long as part of his foot was in/touching the box.

And no, I don't have this issue with my older kids either coaching or umping. It is a stupid place to be in the batter's box in my opinion.
Before the pitch, both feet must be entirely within the batter's box (on the line is in the box). If not, fix it.

After the pitch is delivered - if he hits the ball - fair or foul - while one or both feet is ON THE GROUND ENTIRELY OUTSIDE THE BATTER'S BOX, he is out. Under Official Baseball Rules, touching the plate is irrelevant, but in High School or NCAA rules, hitting the ball while touching the plate results in an out.