Balk Questions

[postman]

I have two or three Balk questions. I have been told different things by different umps. One Ump I have talked to is a NCAA Ump so I trust him because of credentials. But if I take his word for it, then the Umps in our league are just wrong (lack of training I guess). Or, I guess, I misunderstood, which is possible! So, I will try not to tip my hand. I will describe a scenario or two and just tell me if it is a balk. I will keep adding scenario if it makes sense - and I won't try to get this 100 responses long. In fact, I will do two scenario's at a time.

Scenario 1:
Runner on 3 and NOT being held on by 3rd baseman. Pitcher comes set. Starts wind up. Moves towards third and makes a fake throw to third while foot engaged rubber (just like he would pick someone off if 3rd baseman was holding on). Pitcher does not release the ball - just steps to third and fakes throw while 3rd basemen still does not move 'to make a play" - so 3rd basemen about 10 to 15 feet away. Is that a balk?

Scenario 2:
Runner on second. Pitcher comes set. Lifts foot to 'start wind up". Runner takes off for third on Steal. Pitcher during the wind up, steps to third while 3rd basemen moves to cover bag. Basically, same move as if he was picking off a runner at 3rd. So, does this constitute 'making a play" and not a balk or is it a balk because he is 'throwing ahead of the runner to an unoccupied base".

Thanks. I probably have one or two more after I get help on the above.

[CoachJM]

postman,

First, don't say "starts his windup" when the pitcher is in the "set" position. It just confuses things. I'll assume you meant "starts".

Scenario 1: It is perfectly legal for the pitcher (whether a RHP or LHP) to "feint" a throw to occupied 3B while engaged. He must step more in the direction of 3B than any other base with his free foot. The F5 can be in centerfield - it doesn't matter. It is NOT a balk.

Scenario 2: As described, this is NOT a balk either. The pitcher is always allowed to throw to a base (legally, of course) for "the purpose of making a play".

There is a subtle difference between OBR and FED rules in this regard, in that, under OBR, the umpire must judge that the runner is actually attempting to advance (rather than just feinting an attempt), while under FED the pitcher is not liable to a balk even if the runner only feints an advance.

A pitcher may also throw to an unoccupied base for the purpose of making an appeal, even if the appeal is ultimately denied - whether on the "judgement" or the "constitution".

JM

[postman]

Coach,
thanks for the response and will try to watch the wind up comment - but yes, you interpreted it correctly. In scenario 1, if the pitcher actually throws the ball to F5 and he is no were near the bag nor moving towards the bag, then it is a balk, correct? But he if feints the throw, then it is not a balk - correct?

Scenario 2: I agree this is not a balk (and so did the NCAA Ump whom I discussed this with during training). From my understanding, as long as he is making a play and not moving towards homeplate -didn't break the plane of the rubber, etc it is ok. But I have more than one ump calling it a balk under the "can't throw ahead of the runner". I even had a coach in our network of coaches disagree with me. I guess if I teach my pitchers to do this and I get a balk called, I just chalk it up to inexperienced umps and/or protest the game if that is available in our league? I mean, what do you do as a coach if the ump simply does not know?

Can I add a new scenario - take number 2. Now move the runner to 1st. Same situation. Pitcher lifts front foot to start the delivery to the plate. But does not commit to plate. runner takes off for second. can pitcher rotate and throw directly to second (as if if he was making a legal pick to second) again, under the rule that he is making a play?

[robbyrudd455]

postman,

yes the same scenario applies to 2nd base - not a balk. If, as you said, an ignorant umpire balks this, you can protest and that's about all you can do.

8.05 - It is a balk when... (d) The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play

Please don't hesitate to ask more questions!

[CoachJM]

postman,

No, if the F1 throws to F5 while 3B is occupied and F5 is neither near the bag nor in position to make a play, it is NOT a balk. Since a feint is legal to 3B, so is throwing to a fielder not in position to make a play. (Assuming the throw is otherwise legal.)

Scenario 2: Unfortunately, there are some umpires who do not understand this principle of the balk rules. I would go with "chalk it up to inexperienced umpires" unless you're REALLY getting screwed on this. Then, just be polite.

You certainly may. This one's a little trickier, because there are a number of ways the pitcher COULD balk in doing this. However, it is perfectly legal for a pitcher to make a (legal) move to 2B by the 1B side when the R1 "goes on the pitch" as long as he does not hesitate during the move.

JM

[postman]

OK, I guess I am 'confused' - or maybe better to say 'didn't understand' the throw to fielder if he is not holding on the runner. Heck, even this year I got a balk call to my benefit when the pitcher made a 'legal move' to the third baseman when he was not holding the runner on the base and didn't make a 'move to the bag' on the throw. It happened against me last year when my first basemen forgot to move to the bag on our play. Both times - and I thought in our short training session - I was told the basemen has to make a move to the bag or otherwise it is a balk. For example, at first, if the firstbasemen isn't holding on - let's say he 10 feet from the bad on the inside of the baseline. Now, let's say the base runner 'goes as far as the first basemen and then some' (which is what I coach my runners to do). Now lets say the pitcher makes a 'legal pick move' to the firstbasemen who does not move - just stands there. You are saying that is NOT a balk (correct)? in more than one game, I had umps call that a balk because the firstbaseman (and thirdbaseman), did not 'move to the bag' and 'was not holding the runner", therefore it is 'deceiving the runner", etc. etc. Not saying they are right. I am just saying I have had that call to my benefit as a coach and to my detriment. Lucklily, the benefit to my team was when we had runner on 3rd and runner scored in a tight game. So, i guess, please confirm. Could that just be some odd rule we have in our league?? This year I am playing 14 upper division and it was still called a balk and we are supposed to be playing straight up high school rules.

I think my scenarios are done, but one more clarification. In the move from throwing to second (or third) when the runner is on first (or second if the case may be), you said pitcher can not hesitate. That is funny because that was my very next question. I understand there are probably 36 ways to balk. But I thought if the pitcher was going to throw to second or third in the examples I provided earlier, that the pitcher could not hesitate when he lifts his knee up. If he is going to throw to second for a pick, or throw to third in a pick move, it had to be one motion. Is that correct? Can he 'hesitate' when his knee reaches the top? I ask becuase I had a runner picked off from second to third on that. He went when the pitcher lifted foot. Infield yelled runner. when pitcher moved his leg up to deliver the pitch, he stopped/hesitated his leg movement at the peak (basically froze it), then spun to second, faked the throw to second, disengaged the rubber and then made the easy throw to third. I was thinking it was a balk because the pitcher stopped his normal leg movement up. I didn't say anything to ump about it because I was not sure. But since you said he can't hesitate, maybe I was right afterall.

thanks again. And understand, this helps me as a coach too. This is my first year umping, so I am primarily at age group were balks not called. And if I do ump a game where kids can steal/balks, the kids are not that sophisticated yet. And yes, I say the video on Jim's web site and am considering a purchase....

[heyblue26]

Postman: I encourage you to Purchase both Jim Evans DVD on Pitching Regulations and Balks and I also recommend Diamond Challenge You will not go wrong by any means and it is a great addition to any umpires library.

[Dano]

In scenario 1 I can't tell whether or not he is in the windup or "stretch".


If he is in the windup position and he steps and throws to 3rd:

Fed rules it is a balk.
OBR it is legal.

[bobjenkins]

Heck, even this year I got a balk call to my benefit when the pitcher made a 'legal move' to the third baseman when he was not holding the runner on the base and didn't make a 'move to the bag' on the throw. It happened against me last year when my first basemen forgot to move to the bag on our play. Both times - and I thought in our short training session - I was told the basemen has to make a move to the bag or otherwise it is a balk.

A throw to a fielder away from the base is (the same as) a feint to the base.

It's legal to feint to third or second. It's illegal to feint to first.

(Allowance is made at first if the fielder is moving toward the base or in FED is close enought to attempt a play).

[Radwaste50]

Are balks protestable if a wrong reason is given, such as "cant throw ahead of the runner"? I know in most cases balks are judgement calls and are not protestable.

[ExCop]

Are balks protestable if a wrong reason is given, such as "cant throw ahead of the runner"? I know in most cases balks are judgement calls and are not protestable.

The protest can be allowed, but must be skillfully worded: "The umpire declared it to be a rule of baseball that it is a balk when the pitcher, on the rubbber, "throws ahead of the stealing runner" to third base. I am protesting this ruling, as there is no such rule in baseball. I assert that throwing to third base from the rubber in an effort to retire a stealing runner is allowed under baseball rules. I ask that the correct rule be applied, and that the game be continued from that point."

[chuktownblue]

I ask becuase I had a runner picked off from second to third on that. He went when the pitcher lifted foot. Infield yelled runner. when pitcher moved his leg up to deliver the pitch, he stopped/hesitated his leg movement at the peak (basically froze it), then spun to second, faked the throw to second, disengaged the rubber and then made the easy throw to third.

You say a couple different things here. And this exact play was placed in the forum by a coach earlier this season....

If the runner went when the pitcher lifted his foot, he should have been out, as that's just really poor baserunning, as pitcher can throw either to 2nd or 3rd at that moment).

Not sure why the pitcher would freeze his leg at the top of the delivery when the runner is already going, or why he would throw to second. The move as you describe it is a balk. However, I don't think it's being described 100% accurately, as an umpire in his very first game should be calling it. Even mom in the 13th row with 3 kids and a hot dog would be saying "Something looked funny there."

The hesitation was brought up by JM on the move of stepping through to make a throw to 2B. With a runner on 2B, and a RH pitcher, when the pitcher lifts his foot, he is not committed to throw home. He can throw home, 2B or 3B. When the pitcher simply hesitates at the top of his delivery, he is not committed home; he can no longer throw to 2B, but he can still make the throw to 3B (or 1B for lefty).

[postman]

thanks for the help and I do plan on getting some the materials mentioned. And yes, the pitcher did "hesitate/pause" his leg movement up. He did turn towards second, fake the throw to second, then disengaged the rubber, ran at the runner and then threw him out at 3rd. So, i got that right (and the ump missed it).

Oh, and yes, it was from teh stretch. And yes, the runner left too early and was easy to pick off by a properly trained pitcher. But also, I am telling you. I had a balk called on my team when I trained my pitcher to throw directly to third (legally as we explained here) when the runner went early on the steal and he had not committed to the plate. I had the ump and coaches all yelling balk, so I thought I must have had it wrong. It was last year in 13AAA game.

Anyway, I thought he couldn't 'pause' when he went to second. The other coach I work with thought that was no big deal that he could pause, but I don't necessarily trust his understanding of some of the finer points of baseball. But most of all, I certainly don't trust our umps we get. Most are just inexperienced.

Interesting to read here that a pitcher can throw a ball to a 3rd basemen when he isn't holding a runner on. I got a balk call and a run on that play this year by an ump that had a "triple crown tournament" patch on - guess that patches really don't mean much. And also the calrification that you can't do that at first base. I see the relationship between teh fient throw in the explanation and the rules so that helps too.

Maybe I should get the cd. Watch it. Make some copies. And when an ump calls it wrong - I can hand him a cd at the end of the game. And yes, I am just kidding (copy protection, license rights, showing up the ump and all that).

[mike_l]

A throw to a fielder away from the base is (the same as) a feint to the base.
It's legal to feint to third or second. It's illegal to feint to first.

Bob,
is it legal (no balk), with R3 and R2, to step to 3B but throw to F4 at his normal position ?

Regards

[bobjenkins]

Bob,
is it legal (no balk), with R3 and R2, to step to 3B but throw to F4 at his normal position ?

Regards

Depends. If it's all one move, then it's probably illegal (as well as seeming nearly impossible to me -- stepping in one direction and then throwing "behind" you). You must step as part of a feint. You must step (more-) toward the base on a throw. The move violates the second part.

If it's similar to the "third-to-first" move, then it would be legal.

[mike_l]

"A throw to a fielder away from the base is (the same as) a feint to the base."
this made me a bit perplex ;-)

thanks

[mike_l]

(Allowance is made at first if the fielder is moving toward the base.
Bob, i've got some plays in my mind. please help me with this.
#1. F3 is playing in (10 ft in front of 1B). F1 throws over, and "all in one motion" F3 grabs the ball and dives back to 1B to tag R1. -Legal?-
#2. R1 leads about 8 ft. off 1B. F3 is 3 ft. behind R1. F1 throws over to F3 who tags a sleeping R1. the tag occurs 10 ft. away from the bag. -Legal?-

thanks in advance

[dileonardoja]

Bob, i've got some plays in my mind. please help me with this.
#1. F3 is playing in (10 ft in front of 1B). F1 throws over, and "all in one motion" F3 grabs the ball and dives back to 1B to tag R1. -Legal?-
#2. R1 leads about 8 ft. off 1B. F3 is 3 ft. behind R1. F1 throws over to F3 who tags a sleeping R1. the tag occurs 10 ft. away from the bag. -Legal?-

thanks in advance
#1 Not a Balk (There is an attempted play)

#2 Not a Balk (There is an attempted play)

#3 Get the Evans video. It will all become clear.

[postman]

I did something similar to scenario 1 at 1st and we called for balk because 1b was not holding on. Ump told me he had to move to the bag prior to the throw. But if he just stands there, it is a balk. go figure. sigh.

And our play we did this after the opposing base coach tells his runner to 'go as far as 1st basemen if he isn't holding you on. So, at the point, 1st mean goes up the inside basepath about 10 feet. Runner goes in behind him on basepath and usually one more step. Our signal then is catcher lowers his mitt. The pitcher is supposed to turn and throw to 1st while the 1st basement moves to the bag. Only in our case, the pitcher went to quick or the 1st basement didn't get back to bad. We got the runner. But umped called balk because we didn't hold him on. After I argued, he said he didn't move to bag. Sigh... So, according to you guy's on here, this IS NOT a balk? right?

[heyblue26]

#1 Not a Balk (There is an attempted play)

#2 Not a Balk (There is an attempted play)

#3 Get the Evans video. It will all become clear.



1. Get the Evans DVD

2. Get the Evans DVD

3. Purchase The Evans DVD

Get all your snack foods and drinks and sit down and relax and watch this DVD or VHS which ever you purchase Jim will provide you information that will amaze you.

[dileonardoja]

1. Get the Evans DVD

2. Get the Evans DVD

3. Purchase The Evans DVD

Get all your snack foods and drinks and sit down and relax and watch this DVD or VHS which ever you purchase Jim will provide you information that will amaze you.


Blue26, Why direct this at me? Those situations are not balks. I have the DVD, just watched it Sunday.

[heyblue26]

Blue26, Why direct this at me? Those situations are not balks. I have the DVD, just watched it Sunday.

It was not intended or directed to you I was just echoing your statement. Sorry.

[GoodCallBlue]

So, according to you guy's on here, this IS NOT a balk? right?

That's correct, it is not a balk. A play is being made on the runner.

[Willy]

If the throw to F3 is not toward the base, you have to judge that a legitimate play can be made on R1. If F3 is playing 10ft in front of the bag, receives the throw, and dives at R1, I have a balk. If F3, after catching the throw, has to chase R1 back to first. I have a balk. YMMV

[postman]

I am about to order the DVD so I can see this myself (as a coach and an ump). But our play: R1 is standing right behind F3 and probably one stride more towards second - since F3 is on infield grass edge up the baseline towards 2b and first base coach usually says "go as far as the 1st basemen". Basically, all F3 has to do is catch ball and tag R1. Is that a balk? The play is right there. Ump said "if he runs over to first prior to receiving the pick, then that is not a balk. But he has to hold him on."

We did that play and got a balk called on us since F3 was not holding on at the bag. Sounded like earlier on other explanations, that is a balk at first base. Can't do it there. But I could do it at 3rd base - essentially not hold runner - have F5 move up the line towards home. Catch throw from pitcher and lean over and tag runner. BUT - a team attempted to do that to us this year and they got called for a balk for 'not holding on". R5 obviously came home on the balk

[bobjenkins]

I am about to order the DVD so I can see this myself (as a coach and an ump). But our play: R1 is standing right behind F3 and probably one stride more towards second - since F3 is on infield grass edge up the baseline towards 2b and first base coach usually says "go as far as the 1st basemen". Basically, all F3 has to do is catch ball and tag R1. Is that a balk? The play is right there. Ump said "if he runs over to first prior to receiving the pick, then that is not a balk. But he has to hold him on."


IF F3 is standing next to (umpire judgment) R1, then it's not a balk. Your umpire (and the one in the R3 situation) is not the first to miss this, nor will they be the last.

If F3 is standing toward home, then I *do* have to see a play. A throw to F3, 10' in front of first, followed by a catch and then a dive back at the base is likely a balk. A throw to a moving F3 is likely not a balk.

[dmilloy]

I have had coaches go ballistic on me for not calling this play, scenario 2, a balk. Coaches have screamed at me that "he (F1) can't throw to an unoccupied base". Then, I get my more experienced partner backing up the coaches.

I've received a great deal of outstanding feedback from this forum on the topic of throwing to an unnoccupied base. I think I understand the rule, and I think that coaches (I used to be one, too) and umpires in this area simply officiate according to "how we've always called it". I have encountered coaches who intentionlly send their baserunner from second on a steal attempt very early, before F1, while touching his plate, has made any movement, because they assume that the U2 will call the "phantom balk "(unoccupied base rule) in their favor...it's like drawing the charge in baseketball---they try to "draw the balk" and it makes me sick.

I, too, will purchase the Evans video as I am totally sick of hearing the "unoccupied base" crap with no mention or regard to the "making a play exception" part of the rule.

The veteran umps in this forum have been very patient with me so far...thanks.