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umpgent
04-28-2009, 08:20 PM
Sitch:
Batter drag bunts down 1st Baseline. Batter drops bat properly on the fair side of the line. Ball is rolling near the line about 2 inches fair, strikes the bat lying on the ground, and settles on foul ground.

What's the call in both OBR and FED?

I'm interpreting there is a difference.

CoachJM
04-28-2009, 08:34 PM
umpgent,

As described, under OBR rules that is a foul ball.

Under FED I have no idea because there are two conflicting case plays, one of which says it would be foul, one of which says it would be fair.

If it were my call, I would rule as in OBR.

JM

umpgent
04-28-2009, 08:58 PM
As usual, you caught the glitch I was seeking to expose.
The case plays are in conflict in FED.

Logic would tell me that the bat (absent intent or recklessness on the part of the batter) becomes part of the field ... e.g., a rock. That would dictate this is a foul ball. According to the FED caseplay that contradicts this idea, I suppose the bat becomes a "defensive player" or a "base."

heyblue26
04-28-2009, 09:59 PM
Hows about this the batter bunts, drops his bat and heads toward first. As he runs , the ball spins back toward the plate and strikes his bat in fair territory, deflecting it down the 1st base line and preventing the third baseman from making a play on it. Is the batter out?

Yes FED has some crazy rules don't they?

umpgent
04-28-2009, 10:11 PM
I'd say this is a different concept, and absent intent, the ball is fair and it's touch luck on F5 in any rules set.

heyblue26
04-28-2009, 10:25 PM
I'd say this is a different concept, and absent intent, the ball is fair and it's touch luck on F5 in any rules set.

Yes you are correct and no the batter is not out. Normally , when a moving bat strikes a fair batted ball, the batter is out for hitting the ball twice. But if the ball rolls againist an idle bat and , in the umpires's judgement, there was no intent to interfere by the batter, the ball remains alive and in play . (6.05h)

torquer
04-29-2009, 01:45 PM
Sitch:
Batter drag bunts down 1st Baseline. Batter drops bat properly on the fair side of the line. Ball is rolling near the line about 2 inches fair, strikes the bat lying on the ground, and settles on foul ground.

What's the call in both OBR and FED?

I'm interpreting there is a difference.

Ball hitting bat, nothing. Bat hitting ball, out. But all situations have to be judged. The call foul as others have said. FED have another nonbaseball ruling on this?

Jess

chuktownblue
04-29-2009, 03:12 PM
According to the FED caseplay that contradicts this idea, I suppose the bat becomes a "defensive player" or a "base."

Which case has this a fair ball?

CoachJM
04-29-2009, 03:27 PM
chucktown,

2.5.1E Ruling (c).

JM

bobjenkins
04-29-2009, 03:57 PM
Ball hitting bat, nothing. Bat hitting ball, out. But all situations have to be judged. The call foul as others have said. FED have another nonbaseball ruling on this?

Jess

Yes. If there was no intent by the batter, then "bat hitting ball" is also nothing.

Rich_Ives
04-29-2009, 04:24 PM
chucktown,

2.5.1E Ruling (c).

JM

That has the bat hitting the ball, not the ball hitting the bat.

dash_riprock
04-29-2009, 05:23 PM
2.1.5 E has the bat unintentionally hitting the ball a second time. Leave it to FED to require us to determine the intent of an inanimate object.

torquer
04-29-2009, 06:16 PM
Yes. If there was no intent by the batter, then "bat hitting ball" is also nothing.

That would be true except here. 6.05 (h). after hitting or bunting a fair ball, his bat hits the ball a second time in fair territory. The ball is dead and no runners may advance. Now here's were your statement comes in, If the batter/runner drops his bat and the ball rolls against the bat in fair territory and, in the umps judgement, there was no intent to interfere with the course of the ball, the ball is alive and in play. It really does come down to judgement.

Jess

umpgent
04-30-2009, 01:25 AM
umpgent,
Under FED I have no idea because there are two conflicting case plays, one of which says it would be foul, one of which says it would be fair.
If it were my call, I would rule as in OBR.
JM

What are the contradictory caseplays, and from what year's pubication?

bobjenkins
04-30-2009, 12:36 PM
That would be true except here. 6.05 (h). after hitting or bunting a fair ball, his bat hits the ball a second time in fair territory. The ball is dead and no runners may advance. Now here's were your statement comes in, If the batter/runner drops his bat and the ball rolls against the bat in fair territory and, in the umps judgement, there was no intent to interfere with the course of the ball, the ball is alive and in play. It really does come down to judgement.

Jess

You originally asked about FED rules. I answered. Now, you're posting an OBR rule.

They are different animals and have different rulings on this play. I agree -- in OBR, intent doesn't matter, if the bat is moving. In FED, it does.

bobjenkins
04-30-2009, 12:39 PM
What are the contradictory caseplays, and from what year's pubication?

2.5.1E(c) and 2.16.1D. Since at least 2007.

torquer
04-30-2009, 08:00 PM
You originally asked about FED rules. I answered. Now, you're posting an OBR rule.

They are different animals and have different rulings on this play. I agree -- in OBR, intent doesn't matter, if the bat is moving. In FED, it does.

Yep, thats what I go by. Thats why FED is a different game.

Jess

emfries
06-17-2009, 05:30 PM
My general rule, which my UIC tought me, is that if THE BALL hit the bat, then you play the bat as part of the field, but if THE BAT hit the ball, then it is an out (or foul).

Majordave
06-18-2009, 03:28 AM
.....you just have to umpire.

I have been using that one a lot lately with some guys this summer, both umpiring partners and some coaches who like to play stump the ump.

Most of these "situations" are had to be there or please splaine it some more with 30 minutes of terminology Q and A before we are all on the same page as to what really happened or what the real question is. But, in most cases.......

Sometimes, you just have to umpire.

Good question/situation here as it does happen more often than you think it would and it ALWAYS causes a mild argument at best and a dump or two at worst.


My two cents. Your mileage may vary.