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Elfordo
04-22-2009, 12:14 AM
Little League:

Batter gets walked. First baseman fakes a hand-off to the pitcher but still has the ball - hoping that the runner will step off.

What are the implications of the pitcher walking up onto the mound with out the ball? If he simply steps on the dirt slope of the mound, is there a penalty? What if he actually touches the pitching rubber without the ball? Is it an Illegal Pitch call? Is it something else?

CoachJM
04-22-2009, 12:21 AM
Elfordo,

If the pitcher is "on or astride" the rubber without the ball, the ball is live, and there is at least one runner, it is a balk.

8.05(i)

JM

Elfordo
04-22-2009, 12:27 AM
So, with 8.05(i) worded the way it is, for me to have an illegal pitch (not a balk as this is small diamond) the pitcher needs to come all the way to the rubber and be on or astride it. It sounds like, if the pitcher simply walks part way up the mound and stops, never actually making it to the rubber without the ball, there's no infraction yet. You agree?

Rich_Ives
04-22-2009, 04:01 AM
So, with 8.05(i) worded the way it is, for me to have an illegal pitch (not a balk as this is small diamond) the pitcher needs to come all the way to the rubber and be on or astride it. It sounds like, if the pitcher simply walks part way up the mound and stops, never actually making it to the rubber without the ball, there's no infraction yet. You agree?

Correct

DerekD
04-22-2009, 05:05 PM
If this is LL small diamond stuff, maybe I'm missing something. If the runner is standing there on the bag and 1B hands the P the ball, when do they expect the runner to leave the base in order to get him?

Elfordo
04-22-2009, 05:12 PM
sometimes a first baseman will hold onto the ball for a moment, prior to the pitcher taking the mound. He's hoping that the runner will step off of the bag (which they often do). The first baseman would then rech out and tag the runner. It doesn't work real often, but some teams try it.

torquer
04-22-2009, 06:44 PM
sometimes a first baseman will hold onto the ball for a moment, prior to the pitcher taking the mound. He's hoping that the runner will step off of the bag (which they often do). The first baseman would then rech out and tag the runner. It doesn't work real often, but some teams try it.


I thought there were no lead offs in LL. The runner must stay on till the ball passes the plate. Just wondering.

Jess

Elfordo
04-22-2009, 06:57 PM
If the batter/runner has just been walked but the ball has not yet gone back to the mound, the ball is still live and the play is not over. That play - the runner being walked, isn't officially over until the ball makes it back to the rubber and the Catcher is in place behind the plate.

Sometimes, the walked batter/runner will round first base. Sometimes, the runner might step just a few inches off to relax or adjust his sock or who knows why, because he feels that he's in no danger, after all - he thinks that the pitcher who is walking toward the mound has the ball. But the sneaky firstbaseman actually has the ball. tag - fake-a-rooni. runner's out.

I've seen it done successfully two or three times.

The question in the OP was about how close the pitcher (who is not in possession of the ball) is allowed to come to the mound or pitching rubber.

Rich_Ives
04-22-2009, 08:43 PM
I thought there were no lead offs in LL. The runner must stay on till the ball passes the plate. Just wondering.

Jess

Not quite.

The rule doesn't kick in until 1) the pitcher has the ball on the rubber and 2) the catcher is in the catcher's box ready to receive the pitch (gear on, facing the pitcher).

Then, the runner can't leave until the pitch reaches the batter (NOT passes the plate).

willv28
04-22-2009, 09:25 PM
Yes, everyone has it right. Unless the ball was made dead it's still alive the whole time. The runner just cannot leave when the pitcher has the rubber and catcher ready. If he's off the base before that time he's still liable to be put out. Hence this fake-a-rooni scenario. But if the runner was off the base after the pitcher had the rubber and catcher ready, then he's leaving early, a play could still be made on that runner.

My question is and I can't find anything on this is if the runner is off the base, say while the pitcher was walking to the mound and after making contact with the rubber and the catcher is set, the runner never returns to the bag, how should that be called? Oh and this is assuming the pitcher pitches the ball.

torquer
04-23-2009, 04:31 PM
Not quite.

The rule doesn't kick in until 1) the pitcher has the ball on the rubber and 2) the catcher is in the catcher's box ready to receive the pitch (gear on, facing the pitcher).

Then, the runner can't leave until the pitch reaches the batter (NOT passes the plate).

Its been along time since I've done LL. Was just curious.

Jess

Dragon29
04-23-2009, 11:25 PM
Yes, everyone has it right. Unless the ball was made dead it's still alive the whole time. The runner just cannot leave when the pitcher has the rubber and catcher ready. If he's off the base before that time he's still liable to be put out. Hence this fake-a-rooni scenario. But if the runner was off the base after the pitcher had the rubber and catcher ready, then he's leaving early, a play could still be made on that runner.

My question is and I can't find anything on this is if the runner is off the base, say while the pitcher was walking to the mound and after making contact with the rubber and the catcher is set, the runner never returns to the bag, how should that be called? Oh and this is assuming the pitcher pitches the ball.

It's nothing till the pitcher throws the ball, then you make the leaving early call after the ensuing play if there's a reason to. I see this happen all the time in LL; a lot of times it remains nothing, but if the kid does it enough it'll eventually come back to bite him

willv28
04-24-2009, 01:43 AM
It's nothing till the pitcher throws the ball, then you make the leaving early call after the ensuing play if there's a reason to. I see this happen all the time in LL; a lot of times it remains nothing, but if the kid does it enough it'll eventually come back to bite him

Well, I downloaded the rules instruction manual last night. In my scenario the runner is off the base legally, before the pitcher has the rubber on the mound. In this manual as an instructor annotation it states "When a runner is legitimately off his/her base, the pitcher cannot stop the runner by taking the ball back to the mound". So, this would seem to mean that if like in my scenario the pitcher were to take the ball back to the mound and pitch, I would still have the nothing scenario as even being on the mound the runner does not have to go back to the base if he were rightfully off the base. They would have to make a throw or other action to get the runner back to the base then take the mound.

Rich_Ives
04-24-2009, 04:03 AM
Well, I downloaded the rules instruction manual last night. In my scenario the runner is off the base legally, before the pitcher has the rubber on the mound. In this manual as an instructor annotation it states "When a runner is legitimately off his/her base, the pitcher cannot stop the runner by taking the ball back to the mound". So, this would seem to mean that if like in my scenario the pitcher were to take the ball back to the mound and pitch, I would still have the nothing scenario as even being on the mound the runner does not have to go back to the base if he were rightfully off the base. They would have to make a throw or other action to get the runner back to the base then take the mound.

You cannot stop an advance by taking the ball to the mound. But once the runner has stopped and the pitcher and catcher get into position the runner must then either return or attempt to advance - he can't just stand there. If he's just standing there and the pitcher pitches the runner has violated the rule.

willv28
04-24-2009, 04:24 AM
That makes sense. They should be more specific. I took it literally.

catoblue
04-29-2009, 07:31 PM
In the OP, that's what we used to call the "hidden ball trick". As long as the pitcher doesn't take to the rubber and make like he's gonna pitch F3 can hold the ball and wait for R1 to step off the bag and tag him out.