Going for help (No) [Archive]

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TheUmp

03-09-2009, 03:28 AM

TomClarke

03-09-2009, 05:05 AM

Why are you trying to convinve them of this? How do you suggest they go for help? Childress is outdated.

chuktownblue

03-09-2009, 05:25 AM

Is this a blanket statement? Never go for help?

Brings back bad memories of stories that went something like... "I blew the call. I knew I blew the call. They should know we're not perfect, and just suck it up!" Still makes me cringe....

TheUmp

03-09-2009, 07:14 AM

heyblue26

03-09-2009, 09:43 AM

Why are you trying to convinve them of this? How do you suggest they go for help? Childress is outdated.

I agree with you.

mr umpire

03-09-2009, 01:11 PM

I was thinking situations could come up because of continuing action, Base ump calls Batter-Runner out at 1rst and plate umpire sees pulled foot, Action continues then base ump goes to plate ump for help and change out call to safe. Carl Childress says you can only legally change 5 calls, What does he mean by legally?

Well, I don't know about legally but judgment calls are one not to be changed such as out at first or strike on the batter. But, whether or not, the first baseman pulls his foot off the bag is changeable. That is NOT a judgment call such as if the catcher drops the ball on a tag and the PU doesn't see it on the ground before the catcher picks it up and shows him. By not allowing these to be changed takes away from the game and allowing the players to decide the outcome. Now, the umpires are deciding it because they don't want to ask for help.

So, go for help whenever it is necessary. Don't do it all the time just because you don't want to be the bad guy or they ask. In some cases, we are considered the bad guy but we got the call right. In that case, stick with it and don't go for help. But, if it is not a judgment call and you have any doubt of the call, then ask for help. The worse that can happen is your partner says you missed it and this is what the call should be.

And, anything not covered specifically in the book falls under 9.01(c). So, unless the book specifically says a call isn't changeable, get help. If I remember correctly, the only thing not changeable is judgment calls.

torquer

03-09-2009, 01:34 PM

I am trying to convince our association to not go for help after a play has been called, Carl Childress says there are 5 calls that can be changed and a pulled foot is not one of them, Does anyone have any examples of why going for help after a play causes problems? Such as continuous action.

Why would you not get all the info to make a correct call? Pulled foot comes to mind but that should be done before a call is made. Sometimes you can't with responsibilities, then you make the best call you've got with a two man system. All in all the responsible umpire should make the call and live with it. Going to your partner to much lends itself to the coach coming out to appeal judgement calls too. The key is to be in the right place at the right time. Angle over distance if thats what has to be done. Also going to your partner should be a rarity.
Jess

bobjenkins

03-09-2009, 01:47 PM

The NCAA rules book is available on-line. Read Appendix E -- it has some pretty good guidelines.

JBowling

03-09-2009, 01:53 PM

On a pulled foot situation, there are two things that go on: a judgement and a rules application.

The judgement is whether or not the BR beat the ball to the base, whether you call safe or out, depends on whether or not the runner beat the ball.

The rules application also determines whether or not you would call the runner safe or out. If the ball beats the BR to the base, by rule, F3 must securely hold the ball while contacting the base prior to the runner reaching the base.

If working in the middle of the field, you don't see the pulled foot, then you should ask for help because it is now a matter of rules application rather than judgement.

robbyrudd455

03-09-2009, 03:25 PM

When going for help just please don't do the outdated verbal "DID HE PULL HIS FOOT!?" to your PU. Make your call and change it after a huddle.

MCLEOD36

03-09-2009, 03:38 PM

You leave Old Smitty alone Squeaky....

Ozzy

03-09-2009, 03:54 PM

How about you get your butt into position to see the whole play and not have tunnel vision when making a call! If you are doing it right, you won;t need to even have this discussion!

Pete_Booth

03-09-2009, 03:58 PM

[QUOTE=mr umpire;81580]

So, go for help whenever it is necessary. Don't do it all the time just because you don't want to be the bad guy or they ask.

The aforementioned philosophy is NOT taught in clinics and the instructors make it pretty Clear. It is a topic they spend a lot of time on.

You do not go for help WHENEVER it is necessary.

The BU has HIS calls and the PU has HIS calls. There are going to be times when your partner CAN't help you ESPECIALLY in a 2 person system and you could be "hanging your partner out to dry"

Bottom line MAKE YOUR OWN CALLS.

Pete Booth

MCLEOD36

03-09-2009, 04:01 PM

I agree with Ozzy, hustle and get in position. If you have a coach that is a dope, warn then DUMP HIM.

mr umpire

03-09-2009, 06:13 PM

I understand for the BU to make his own calls. But, if a throw pulls the first baseman directly towards the BU, he will not be able to see through his body and foot. This is something getting help on can be of assistance. I don't care how much you hustle, there are occasions where you can't see things because of the way the play developed.

If the catcher drops the ball in a way to where PU can't see it, then the play stands with no help? Because, again, the BU has his responsibilities of other runners so the PU just eats the call without asking for help.

The idea is to get the call right and ask for help if needed and if available. We should use every resource available for times when we get shielded or when the developing play prevents us from seeing the whole picture. Why have the PU come to the 45 foot spot if he is not there to help? Why not just stay at the plate?

This should not be abused and should not be done just to take the call out of your hands. But, it should be done at times to make sure to get the call right. Again, we shouldn't be there denying help just because we feel like it.

Let the players determine the outcome of the game and not umpires. Call it as you see it but if you can't see it all, why not ask for help?

The main thing is to know when your partner can help or not. If the PU has a runner coming to the plate or has to go to 3B, then he won't be able to help on other plays. But, if it is a DP attempt at 2B and 1B with no other runners on, then he has an opportunity to be of assistance if the 1B comes directly at the BU.

I only say to ask for help when available and when there may be doubt on the play. But, do NOT ask just because you're not sure of your judgment. And, know the situation before you put your partner on the spot.

mstaylor

03-10-2009, 03:36 AM

I will agree that sometimes from the middle of infield you may miss something but it should be a very rare thing. Even if you are in the middle you can take adjustment steps to get a look. If you have to ask more than a couple of times a year then you need to look at your mechanics. A swipe tag is harder to see and may require help, but a pulled foot should be your's.

kcbearcat

03-10-2009, 05:01 AM

heyblue26

03-10-2009, 01:37 PM

I say no that the only time an umpire is to ask for help is on half swings and that is the plate umpire he is required to ask his partner.

gregm

03-10-2009, 01:49 PM

I say no that the only time an umpire is to ask for help is on half swings and that is the plate umpire he is required to ask his partner.

I will ask the same question that MrUmpire asked. If what you say is true, then why does a PU trail the BR to first?

bobjenkins

03-10-2009, 06:07 PM

I will ask the same question that MrUmpire asked. If what you say is true, then why does a PU trail the BR to first?

To loosen up the legs after a set of squats.

Or, to look for interference, be ready to rule on an overthrown ball, ...

Tim_C

03-10-2009, 06:15 PM

Just the statistics from my own activities:

Years worked: Starting #41

Games Worked: 3,998

Games as BU: (Approximately) 1600

Times I have asked for help on a swipe tag or pulled foot: 0

Of course this is just local data from one umpire.

Regards,

jjb

03-10-2009, 07:42 PM

Times you MAY have missed the swipe tag, or pulled foot, if you weren't sure?

Times you MAY have gotten the call right if you had asked?

Tim_C

03-10-2009, 08:02 PM

Times I wasn't sure on the situation: 0

Times coaches (managers) have come out to argue and asking me to "get help": 0 (I think that is right I do not remember anyone EVER coming out asking me to get help.)

I get my own calls and they are correct.

Richard_Siegel

03-10-2009, 08:03 PM

Times you MAY have missed the swipe tag, or pulled foot, if you weren't sure?

Times you MAY have gotten the call right if you had asked?

Oh rookie, thou hath lessons yet to learn.........

Pete_Booth

03-10-2009, 08:05 PM

[QUOTE=mr umpire;81623]I understand for the BU to make his own calls. But, if a throw pulls the first baseman directly towards the BU, he will not be able to see through his body and foot. This is something getting help on can be of assistance. I don't care how much you hustle, there are occasions where you can't see things because of the way the play developed.

Here is the MAIN problem with going for help and this point was brought out in the clinic I attended.

You are the BU and there is a swipe tag, pulled foot scenario. You point to the PU and the PU is unsure etc.

now what?

the crew looks bad because a call has to be made. You as BU relinquished the call to the PU and basically through him under the bus. The PU has No clue whether or not the runner is out or safe but now the call is suddenly his since you pointed to him.

Bottom Line as BU MAKE YOUR OWN CALLS.

Pete Booth

CoachJM

03-10-2009, 08:18 PM

To loosen up the legs after a set of squats.

Or, to look for interference, be ready to rule on an overthrown ball, ...

Bob,

Let's see... that's two of the three reasons specified in the PBUC Red Book - the other being to provide "help" on a swipe tag at 1B. (Though it is QUITE emphatic that this should be a very rare occasion.

The CCA manual suggeswts the PU trail the BR to provide help on a swipe tag and a pulled foot.

Just the statistics from my own activities:

Years worked: Starting #41

Games Worked: 3,998

Games as BU: (Approximately) 1600

Times I have asked for help on a swipe tag or pulled foot: 0

Of course this is just local data from one umpire.

Regards,

My stats are a little different.

Years worked: Starting #3 (on 3/28 )

Games worked: 258

Times I have asked for help on a swipe tag or pulled foot: 1 :oops:

(It was the fifth game I had worked in my life, first as BU on a 2-man crew and before I had any "formal" training. Completely missed a swipe tag - I believe I was the only person present who didn't see it.)

Just another data point from a different umpire.

JM

TomClarke

03-10-2009, 08:20 PM

[QUOTE]

Here is the MAIN problem with going for help and this point was brought out in the clinic I attended.

You are the BU and there is a swipe tag, pulled foot scenario. You point to the PU and the PU is unsure etc.

now what?

the crew looks bad because a call has to be made. You as BU relinquished the call to the PU and basically through him under the bus. The PU has No clue whether or not the runner is out or safe but now the call is suddenly his since you pointed to him.

Bottom Line as BU MAKE YOUR OWN CALLS.

Pete Booth

which is why i am aboslutely against asking for help before making a call. make the call, let them come and ask you to ask for help, then ask if you fell you need to. asking first is horseshit.

jjb

03-10-2009, 08:51 PM

Here's the situation to which I'm referring:

I'm in B, I've got a ground ball to F6, who throws to F3. The throw is in the dirt, and F3 stretches for the ball. I get straight-lined, (I've got no control on which way F3 stretches at the last second, and I don't make my calls on the move) and I can't tell if F3's come off the bag or not.

I'm going to make the call, and, if I'm not sure if he came off, I'm going to call the BR out, and wait and see what happens. If the OC comes out and says (politely), "Blue, I see you got straightlined, your partner may have had a better angle, can you check with him?", are you telling me I'm going to say No, and then dump him if he asks why not?

My point: If a coach asks me to get help, and I'm sure of my call, I'll tell him, "Sorry, Coach: I had the call, I'm sure of it, let's play". If I'm not sure, and I think there's a possibility my partner had a better view of it, (and they ask politely) I'll be happy to walk down to him and quietly ask in a one-on-one conversation. If he says He saw the pull, I'll change my call, we look like we're interested in getting it right (because we are). If my partner says he didn't pull his foot, I'll keep the call, and we know we got it right. If he tells me he's not sure I'll make my decision, and live with it.

My confidence in my abilities as an umpire aside, I'm not of the ilk that says that all my calls are correct. If that were true, my Leagues couldn't afford me, and I wouldn't be posting here: I'd be at Spring Training.

(BTW, Rich: don't assume: my hair's greyer than yours. I just don't post a lot)

Richard_Siegel

03-10-2009, 09:19 PM

(BTW, Rich: don't assume: my hair's greyer than yours. I just don't post a lot)

I was not referring to your experience as an umpire being "rookie." I am referring to your rookie status on this forum, spefically dealing with Tim_C.

jjb

03-10-2009, 09:24 PM

Got'cha, Rich: I understand now.

Richard_Siegel

03-10-2009, 09:31 PM

If you have to go for help to your partner there a way to get help from the PU and look competent and professional and nobody will know you did it. In effect it is going for help without going for help. I picked this up at a professional clinic in the 90's. It has worked well for me. It removes all the questions about going for help before or after you make the call, because nobody but the umpires know you went for help.

It requires a great partner and very sharp judgment. Only go for help to a partner you are familiar with and you know you can rely on 100% of the time. A good PU is trained to follow the BR up the line to be in position to help the BU with a pulled foot or swipe tag situation if needed. If you go for help you must do it BEFORE you make any call, safe or out, and you must decide to do it very quickly.

A pulled foot or swipe tag situation can be a tough call for a BU at the B or C position. There are ways to minimize the need to get help by looking for clues after the play that might help you make the call. These clues are going to happen immediately. You will only have a half second to see them and make up your mind. So you have to be sharp!

Going for help from you partner should be your last resort. Try to get the call yourself. Use whatever evidence you can to make up your mind, then sell the call.

Here are some ideas.

When you think you have a pulled foot, wait a split second and watch what F3 does. If F3's foot was off the base, F3 will probably know this. If you suspect F3's foot was pulled off the base after F3 has the ball look to see if he drops his heel to retouch the base, or drags his toe sideways to touch the base afterward. Does F3 look down after the catch to see if his foot is on the base? If he does, did he move his foot closer to the base? Does the 1B coach immediately point at the pulled foot? Does the runner himself immediately point at the pulled foot? I'm not saying you should completely rely on these things to decide if the foot was pulled, but waiting a few beats to see if any of these things happen it might help you decide without going for help.

If you suspect a swipe tag you might see the runner grimace or flinch from the contact of the tag. He might drop his head mad at himself knowing he was tagged.

If you have to get help. . .

If you have a pulled foot or swipe tag situation and you see no clues and nothing in what F3 or the runner does to help you decide, look at you partner and decide if he is ready to help you. Don't expect to get help from your partner before you look at him. If you partner is (wrongfully) running up the 3B line he is useless and you can not ask him for help.

Your pregame chat with you PU should include the a pulled foot or swipe tag situation and you should plan that the PU will send you a very simple silent signal if he sees a pulled foot or swipe tag that you may not see. The simple signal is to just stand there and look at you. He should do nothing else! No hand gestures, no winks, no nods, no hands waving, and no secret words. The PU should just look at the BU... just make eye contact, that’s all. The PU is not going to have time to do anything else, and doing anything else can be noticed by the players and coaches.

So if you have a good PU, he will follow the BR up the line to be in position at the 45' line to help you. If the PU sees a pulled foot or swipe tag he should just stand right there on the line and he should just stare at you (make eye contact). He should have a look on his face that will silently communicate to you, "I have some information for you." Only when you are 100% sure the PU has this info should you accept that saw it. By his looking at you he is, in effect, silently telling you "I saw a good tag on the swipe!" or "I saw F3's foot pulled off the bag!" Once you see that PU has this information you can then make your one call: "safe" or "he's out." In the instant it took to glance at your partner you have gone for help and you know what he saw.

What if the swipe tag was missed or F3's foot stayed on the base? You can also arrange with you partner that the PU will NOT look at you if he has nothing "unusual" to give you. So, if the PU comes up the line and he sees there was no successful swipe tag and/or F3 kept his foot on the bag then he will look away and NOT look at you (the BU). In effect, by doing this (looking away) the PU has given you the "help" that means there was no swipe tag or no pulled foot.

This is a method that can only be done with a trusted partner you know well and that you can rely on. It has the added benefit of letting you know that if a coach comes out and demands you "get help" on a call, you will already know what your partner will say if you decide to give in to the coach and ask your partner what he saw.

I highly suggest you work hard to get those calls yourself. I can say in my experience of almost 2000 games have participated in this silent method of "help" about 7 times, some as the PU, some as the BU. It works very well and nobody but your partner knows that you actually went for help.

TomClarke

03-10-2009, 11:47 PM

So if you have a good PU, he will follow the BR up the line to be in position at the 45' line to help you. If the PU sees a pulled foot or swipe tag he should just stand right there on the line and he should just stare at you (make eye contact). He should have a look on his face that will silently communicate to you, "I have some information for you." Only when you are 100% sure the PU has this info should you accept that saw it. By his looking at you he is, in effect, silently telling you "I saw a good tag on the swipe!" or "I saw F3's foot pulled off the bag!" Once you see that PU has this information you can then make your one call: "safe" or "he's out." In the instant it took to glance at your partner you have gone for help and you know what he saw.

So the PU is looking at you like he has some information to add...and according to your summation it could be that he saw a tag, or that he didn't see a tag (of the base in this case.) How are you to determine which is the info he has for you??? Don't like it, and not buying it.

robbyrudd455

03-10-2009, 11:59 PM

chuck1

03-11-2009, 12:19 AM

So who helps the plate umpire when the catcher pulls his foot?

Matt13

03-11-2009, 12:48 AM

So who helps the plate umpire when the catcher pulls his foot?

Everybody in the park.

scumpire

03-11-2009, 06:02 AM

I'm in B, I've got a ground ball to F6, who throws to F3. The throw is in the dirt, and F3 stretches for the ball. I get straight-lined, (I've got no control on which way F3 stretches at the last second, and I don't make my calls on the move) and I can't tell if F3's come off the bag or not.

If you are getting straight lined for a lot of plays like this, then you may not be getting the proper angle/distance for plays at first when you are in B or C position. You need to read these plays as only plays at first and get to the cutout near first base and not be moving when the play occurs. When you see you are going to get straight lined then you need to take a step or lean to make the adjustment to see everything you need to see. I know this happens fast but you should have time to read the throw and the first baseman and get to where you need to be. Also use good timing. This was mentioned earlier, if you see the first baseman reach back for the base, then he is telling you he thought he was off the bag too, so don't take the short end of the stick. Plus if you are in B or C that means there are runners on base and the plate umpire isn't usually coming up the first base line anyways, he has other responsibilities so he probably won't have a good look at this play anyhow.

I'm going to make the call, and, if I'm not sure if he came off, I'm going to call the BR out, and wait and see what happens. If the OC comes out and says (politely), "Blue, I see you got straightlined, your partner may have had a better angle, can you check with him?", are you telling me I'm going to say No, and then dump him if he asks why not?

If a coach/manager asks you to get help don’t go right away just b/c he asks you to. You need to have a spine and stick by your call. At first tell him that you saw it just fine and don't need help. Make it clear you were in the proper position and saw everything you needed to. Sometimes this will work. If he persists that you go to your partner then fine, but don't go ask for help right away b/c you were asked to. Also, before you get help, make it clear that once you do and it’s not changed that you’re not going to listen to anymore about this play.

My point: If a coach asks me to get help, and I'm sure of my call, I'll tell him, "Sorry, Coach: I had the call, I'm sure of it, let's play".

Don't ever say you're sorry. Next thing out of his mouth will be,"YOU ARE SORRY!"

Matt13

03-11-2009, 06:20 AM

If a coach/manager asks you to get help don’t go right away just b/c he asks you to. You need to have a spine and stick by your call. At first tell him that you saw it just fine and don't need help. Make it clear you were in the proper position and saw everything you needed to. Sometimes this will work. If he persists that you go to your partner then fine, but don't go ask for help right away b/c you were asked to. Also, before you get help, make it clear that once you do and it’s not changed that you’re not going to listen to anymore about this play.

I'm not going to have a spine, then change my mind.

When that manager comes out, I know whether or not I plan on asking for help. If I had the call, and I know I did, I don't care if DOYC tells me to, I'm not going for help.

If I am uncertain about some of what I had seen or not seen, when that manager comes out, he's going to have to tell me what he thinks was missed in the call. (This goes back to defusing an argument with "What did you see?") If he says something that I know I didn't miss (i.e. I didn't get a good look at the foot, but I know there was possession, and he insists that the fielder bobbled the ball,) I'm not going for help.

If I make a call on not much more than a guess, then at the first word of protest I'm consulting my partner.

But to deny the request for help, allow an argument or discussion to drag on, only to finally agree to the request, is going to do nothing but encourage dissent on close calls from there on.

chuck1

03-11-2009, 07:25 AM

So what does the umpire in B or C do if he does not see a tag of the base by the runner and the runner clearly touches the base?

heyblue26

03-11-2009, 09:29 AM

I will ask the same question that MrUmpire asked. If what you say is true, then why does a PU trail the BR to first?

GREM: The answer to your question if you have the manual Maximizing The Two-Umpire System you can find the explaination on page 53 (4.19)

Richard_Siegel

03-11-2009, 11:32 AM

So the PU is looking at you like he has some information to add...and according to your summation it could be that he saw a tag, or that he didn't see a tag (of the base in this case.) How are you to determine which is the info he has for you??? Don't like it, and not buying it.

Tom,
Read the post again. If the PU is looking at you it is not an ambiguous message. It only means ONE thing: In the case of a swipe tag it means he saw the tag, In the case of pulled foot it means he saw the full was pulled.

If the PU is on the line but NOT looking at you it means he has nothing to tell you, IOW, he saw there was "no tag," or he saw there was no pulled foot (F3 held the bag).

When I say the PU is NOT looking at you it really means he is still looking up the line at the play. i.e. he is looking at the BR and F3 down at 1B, or he might already be turning away to go back to HP.

When I say he IS looking at you it really means he is standing still and staring right at you to make eye contact.

When you get to know a partner these are very easy thing to pick up on.

mr umpire

03-11-2009, 11:49 AM

[QUOTE=Pete_Booth;81713]

which is why i am aboslutely against asking for help before making a call. make the call, let them come and ask you to ask for help, then ask if you fell you need to. asking first is horseshit.

I completely agree. Make the call as BU. Whatever that call may be. Try to sell your call and make them think you got it right. If they question it and it is a situation where the PU can help, ask ONLY if the BU has any doubt he missed the call. Not just because they want help. Otherwise, stick with the call and take the heat or ejection if necessary.

Don't just point to the PU to see what he has.

gregm

03-11-2009, 01:51 PM

If a coach/manager asks you to get help don’t go right away just b/c he asks you to. You need to have a spine and stick by your call. At first tell him that you saw it just fine and don't need help. Make it clear you were in the proper position and saw everything you needed to. Sometimes this will work. If he persists that you go to your partner then fine, but don't go ask for help right away b/c you were asked to. Also, before you get help, make it clear that once you do and it’s not changed that you’re not going to listen to anymore about this play.

IMHO, if an umpire tells a coach that he was in proper position, saw it just fine and everything he needed to, and don't need help; then goes for help and his partner did see something that he didn't, one of two things are going to happen. One - he has already stuck his neck out by what he told the coach and is going to lose credibility with him by changing the call, or Two - he is going to leave the call as he called it and know that it is wrong just to save face.
I do agree that when I do go to my partner for help, then when I turn and either confirm or change my call, the discussion is over and it is time to play ball.

I was taught to never, ever just point at your partner for help with the exception of a check swing. I was also taught to always make the call and go for help if asked and you thought you might have missed something. That when you call a player out on a tag, that means that you actually saw the contact on the tag and are not just guessing that the tag was made. Same deal on a pulled foot, missed base tag, etc.

Westy

03-12-2009, 12:39 AM

[QUOTE=TomClarke;81715]

AMEN! Make the call, then get help (if necessary).

FWIW, Evans teaches to get help before a call is made.

TomClarke

03-12-2009, 02:23 AM

FWIW, Evans teaches to get help before a call is made.

Not in any of the 5 week pro schools (3 years) or at the clinic (this year's in NJ) I've taught at.

BrianC14

03-12-2009, 02:37 AM

Not in any of the 5 week pro schools (3 years) or at the clinic (this year's in NJ) I've taught at.

Re: Getting help before the call is made.

Had this happen just today.

I'm on the dish.
Partner makes a call at first of "safe" (F3 pulled foot).
DC doesn't like it, calls for and gets "Time", and jogs out to visit with my partner.
I stroll out to listen.
Partner comes to me, "Brian, did you have the first baseman off the base?"
Says I: "Yep, I've got the same thing you called."
He relays that to DC.
DC says, "Really? Oh, OK."
And on we go.
It took maybe 20 seconds out of a 10 inning game that was 2 hours 40 minutes in length.

CoachJM

03-12-2009, 03:57 AM

Not in any of the 5 week pro schools (3 years) or at the clinic (this year's in NJ) I've taught at.

Westy was a classmate of mine at the Desert Classic in October 2006, and what he suggests (i.e. if you didn't see what you needed to in order to make the call, then "get help" BEFORE making the call) is exactly what was taught.

It is also what the current PBUC "red book" in print at the time emphatically stated. (I understand the red book has been republished with changes since then.)

On the other hand...

I was helping teach 2-man mechanics at my association's spring clinic a couple of weeks ago and I was partnered with a colleague who attended the Evans 5-week school in January of 2007. He was quite emphatic that the BU make the call first and then, were a manager to question the call, the BU should consult with his partner if he thought he might not have seen everything he needed to.

Perhaps the thinking on the question has changed. Maybe it "changed" between October of 2006 and January of 2007.

JM

TomClarke

03-12-2009, 04:29 AM

Westy was a classmate of mine at the Desert Classic in October 2006, and what he suggests (i.e. if you didn't see what you needed to in order to make the call, then "get help" BEFORE making the call) is exactly what was taught.

It is also what the current PBUC "red book" in print at the time emphatically stated. (I understand the red book has been republished with changes since then.)

On the other hand...

I was helping teach 2-man mechanics at my association's spring clinic a couple of weeks ago and I was partnered with a colleague who attended the Evans 5-week school in January of 2007. He was quite emphatic that the BU make the call first and then, were a manager to question the call, the BU should consult with his partner if he thought he might not have seen everything he needed to.

Perhaps the thinking on the question has changed. Maybe it "changed" between October of 2006 and January of 2007.

JM

The red book still has this in there. It says to get help "immediately and before a confrontation with a player or manager occurs." I suppose you can read that as meaning to get help before you make your call, but that is not specifically what it says. It also says that "this technique is rarely used..." What I do know is that going before making a call is not how the instructors do it when they're on the field.

mr umpire

03-12-2009, 12:28 PM

Pete_Booth

03-12-2009, 02:20 PM

[QUOTE=robbyrudd455;81727]

FWIW, Evans teaches to get help before a call is made.

Do you have any facts?

Our HS umpire association recently held a mandatory all day meeting because the Evans instructors (who teach at the NJ facility) were present.

These guys spent a good amount of time on this subject matter.

As Tom points out THEY did not instruct any of us to ask for help first.

In fact they were on the opposite side meaning DO NOT ask for help PERIOD. EXCEPT on the RAREST amd I MEAN RAREST of occassions.

Pete Booth

chuktownblue

03-12-2009, 02:53 PM

Re: Getting help before the call is made.

Had this happen just today.

I'm on the dish.
Partner makes a call at first of "safe" (F3 pulled foot).
DC doesn't like it, calls for and gets "Time", and jogs out to visit with my partner.
I stroll out to listen.
Partner comes to me, "Brian, did you have the first baseman off the base?"
Says I: "Yep, I've got the same thing you called."
He relays that to DC.
DC says, "Really? Oh, OK."
And on we go.
It took maybe 20 seconds out of a 10 inning game that was 2 hours 40 minutes in length.

If someone makes an "Off the bag" call as BU, they should not be going for help. That's a positive call, meaning the BU saw his foot was off the bag. If my BU would have come to me with that, my jaw probably would have hit the ground. That's not placating the coach. That's an umpire saying they saw something, then saying they're not sure.

A bad angle might make one think F3 was on the bag when he wasn't, but a bad angle isn't going to make one see a space that isn't there.

BrianC14

03-12-2009, 03:22 PM

If someone makes an "Off the bag" call as BU, they should not be going for help. That's a positive call, meaning the BU saw his foot was off the bag. If my BU would have come to me with that, my jaw probably would have hit the ground. That's not placating the coach. That's an umpire saying they saw something, then saying they're not sure.

A bad angle might make one think F3 was on the bag when he wasn't, but a bad angle isn't going to make one see a space that isn't there.

I don't disagree that he shouldn't have come to me, because he didn't need help, he had it right. Had I been on the bases, I'd have simply told DC that it was my call, and I saw it clearly, end of story, let's play. He did tell DC that it was his call, but DC reiterates his request to get help.

But once he did come to me, I simply stated (to him alone) that I had what he had. Short, to the point. Saying anything else, and I'd have been throwing him under the proverbial RTD. We get rid of the coach in a hurry, and there's no real delay.

Westy

03-12-2009, 04:51 PM

[QUOTE]

Do you have any facts?

Our HS umpire association recently held a mandatory all day meeting because the Evans instructors (who teach at the NJ facility) were present.

These guys spent a good amount of time on this subject matter.

As Tom points out THEY did not instruct any of us to ask for help first.

In fact they were on the opposite side meaning DO NOT ask for help PERIOD. EXCEPT on the RAREST amd I MEAN RAREST of occassions.

Pete Booth

Maximizing the two-Umpire System, Chapter 2, section 18, pages 31-32.
As JM said this was also included in on of Jim's lectures, although he did not explain exactly how it should be accomplished. Perhaps Tom or Jason could ask him to explain further. You are correct, Jim says if should be done on the rarest of occasions, but none the less, "If help is solicited, it should be done before the call is made."

ump34

03-14-2009, 02:50 AM

I agree with Richard, We've done that in our high school assocication for years was taught that by a older umpire when I started. You just glance at your partner and if he is looking at you like Richard said you know for certain, but that's only if you have doubt if not make and sell the call. But college and pro levels that I have been associated with and their camps says that is your call and you make it and it is yours to eat. But most high school associations want you to get help if asked by the head coach and the way Richard says is a way to do that and know you have it right when in doubt andmake the call then if the coach comes out and asks you to get help on the call, sure coach but I'm sure I got it right. And you don't have these high school coaches getting all fired up when you change the call.