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DJohnBishop
01-11-2009, 11:00 PM
Batter doubles but misses first base. "Time" is called. After the ball is put in play, the pitcher steps back off the rubber preparing to throw to first to make the appeal, R2 takes off for third on a steal. Instead of throwing to first, the pitcher throws to third attempting to retire R2, but R2 beats the throw. Can the defense now properly appeal at first base?
I got this one wrong on an umpire quiz I was taking. I thought if the offence initiated the play then the defense could react to that play without losing the right to appeal. Am I wrong on this? If so then a coach that is paying attention would really kind of mess you up. Per that logic, if a kid missed the plate and everyone in the park knows it. As soon as they start to appeal if you have a runner on any base you could tell him to just start running, so you give up the out on the base runner to keep the run that never touched the plate.

CoachJM
01-11-2009, 11:10 PM
DJohnBishop,

Depends on the rule code.

OBR - the defense has lost its right to appeal because they attempted a "post continuous action" play prior to appealing.

NCAA - the defense has lost its right to appeal because, even though the offense initiated the play, a runner safely advanced. (I think - still pretty new to NCAA rules.)

FED - the defense has not lost its right to appeal because the offense initiated the play.

JM

mstaylor
01-11-2009, 11:20 PM
In Fed or NCAA you would be correct. In any OBR based system, you would be wrong. The way to avoid the runner taking off on you is either throw to second and tag the runner, announcing the appeal as you do. The other is to try and avoid having time called and live ball appeal it as the ball comes in from the outfield.

CoachJM
01-11-2009, 11:59 PM
Michael,

So under NCAA, the "runner advancing" exception in 8-6-b 5(b) doesn't apply because the defense never initiated an appeal? Is that correct?

JM

Willy
01-12-2009, 02:34 AM
Michael,

So under NCAA, the "runner advancing" exception in 8-6-b 5(b) doesn't apply because the defense never initiated an appeal? Is that correct?

JM

In NCAA, the defense does not lose their right to appeal if the offense initiates a play. If the ball goes in DBT, then they lose their right. The runner being safe or out does not matter. If R2 is thrown out at third for out number three, the defense can still appeal his miss of first if it means taking a run or runs off of the board.

robbyrudd455
01-12-2009, 03:47 AM
Michael,

So under NCAA, the "runner advancing" exception in 8-6-b 5(b) doesn't apply because the defense never initiated an appeal? Is that correct?

JM

The ball hast to remain in LBT

HittingZone
01-12-2009, 04:49 AM
In FED, can't the Head Coach simply ask for the appeal under a dead ball with no throw?

Ozzy
01-12-2009, 12:17 PM
In FED, can't the Head Coach simply ask for the appeal under a dead ball with no throw?
Yes, the coach may appeal under dead ball in FED.

KenGibes
01-12-2009, 07:07 PM
In all three rules sets (OBR,FED,NCAA), the appealed runner can be retired by making the proper verbal appeal and then tagging the runner. So when the runner in the OP breaks for third, why does the umpire assume the pitcher is making an play on the baserunner rather than merely throwing the ball to F5 so he can apply the required appeal tag?

I admit that in the heat of the moment, the pitcher's intent is probably to retire the runner trying to advance. But this requires a bit of mind reading, right? So would it be improper to declare the runner out on the appeal? I mean, the verbal part of the appeal has already been made, so why can't I simply determine that the tag is the completion of the appeal?

bobjenkins
01-12-2009, 07:44 PM
In all three rules sets (OBR,FED,NCAA), the appealed runner can be retired by making the proper verbal appeal and then tagging the runner. So when the runner in the OP breaks for third, why does the umpire assume the pitcher is making an play on the baserunner rather than merely throwing the ball to F5 so he can apply the required appeal tag?

I admit that in the heat of the moment, the pitcher's intent is probably to retire the runner trying to advance. But this requires a bit of mind reading, right? So would it be improper to declare the runner out on the appeal? I mean, the verbal part of the appeal has already been made, so why can't I simply determine that the tag is the completion of the appeal?


I don't see in the OP where the "verbal part of the appeal has already been made" (in fact, the OP says just the opposit -- "to retire the runner"). In any event, an appeal must be unmistakeable (or something like that) -- and that's not likely given the scenario presented.

KenGibes
01-12-2009, 08:22 PM
I don't see in the OP where the "verbal part of the appeal has already been made" ...

After re-reading the OP, I agree. It says that the pitcher is preparing to make an appeal. If the appeal hasn't yet been verbalized, my point is moot.

However, if the pitcher had already voiced the verbal part of the appeal, then the runner takes off, I'd have to think a little bit if F5 ends up tagging the runner. Even if there's a run-down between 2nd and 3rd, who's to say the defense isn't attempting to tag the runner as the back-end of the appeal?

mstaylor
01-12-2009, 10:04 PM
If he threw to second and the runner breaks, then to make the appeal valid, he needs to then throw to first. If he throws to third or after the throw to second, they throw to third, then it is a play and the appeal is gone in OBR.

KenGibes
01-13-2009, 01:30 AM
If he threw to second and the runner breaks, then to make the appeal valid, he needs to then throw to first. If he throws to third or after the throw to second, they throw to third, then it is a play and the appeal is gone in OBR.

I can see where it could be considered a "play", Michael, but tagging the player is absolutely valid when making an appeal so I don't think there's any restriction on what base you can or can't throw to. The umpire would have to divine the intent of the defense to make that call. If the verbal appeal has already been made, and the defense has to chase the runner down to tag him, that's part of the appeal, not a play. If the runner bolts when the defense goes to tag him, there's nothing that says that the defense has to abandon the attempt to tag the runner and, instead, tag the base the runner missed, is there?

mr umpire
01-13-2009, 02:21 AM
I can see where it could be considered a "play", Michael, but tagging the player is absolutely valid when making an appeal so I don't think there's any restriction on what base you can or can't throw to. The umpire would have to divine the intent of the defense to make that call. If the verbal appeal has already been made, and the defense has to chase the runner down to tag him, that's part of the appeal, not a play. If the runner bolts when the defense goes to tag him, there's nothing that says that the defense has to abandon the attempt to tag the runner and, instead, tag the base the runner missed, is there?

This exact play is play 4 in the PBUC book under section 3.4. Once they make a play on the runner after the initial throw to 2B, the defense loses its right to appeal. So, they cannot tag him at 3B now as an appeal and they cannot throw to 1B for the appeal after throwing to 3B.

An appeal in not considered an attempted play. So, it appears the throw to 2B to tag him is not to be interpreted as an attempted play. So, if the defense doesn't get the opportunity to tag him as soon as they receive the ball at 2B, then the defense cannot pursue the runner. This will be an attempted play and lose the right to appeal. The only way the defense can retain the right to retire the runner on appeal is to throw the ball directly to 1B immediately following the throw from the pitcher if the defense missed the initial tag attempt. Correct?

In the OP, under OBR, the appeal is removed as soon as the defense throws to 3B based upon the PBUC book. In the above scenario, the appeal is lost as soon as the defense throws or chases the runner.

In other words, the defense cannot throw the ball to 3B or chase after the runner. Otherwise, they lose the right to appeal under OBR.

KenGibes
01-13-2009, 05:14 PM
Thanks, Michael and Mr Ump for helping me out on this one.