Jumping Over a Tag

[findit99]

Can someone please point me to the rule that applies if a runner jumps over a fielder's glove to avoid a tag? There's been a debate between a few of us over the last few weeks if that is allowed or it is a violation and the runner is out.

Thanks.

[dash_riprock]

Can someone please point me to the rule that applies if a runner jumps over a fielder's glove to avoid a tag? There's been a debate between a few of us over the last few weeks if that is allowed or it is a violation and the runner is out.

Thanks.
It's a FED rule (8-4-2-b-2) ...Jumping, hurdling and leaping are all legal attempts to avoid a fielder as long as the fielder is lying on the ground. Diving over a fielder is illegal.

[findit99]

Alright - let me be more specific. R1 stealing second and F4 is holding the ball in front of second base to apply the tag. The runner jumps over the glove and touches second base without being tagged. Safe or out? Give me OBR and Fed. Thanks.

[dash_riprock]

Out in FED (assuming F4 is not lying on the ground), safe in OBR.

[BrianC14]

Dash,

Why would he be out (in FED) if he JUMPED over?
As I read the rule, it's specific about diving....

[dash_riprock]

It's also specific about jumping. It's legal only if the fielder is lying on the ground - otherwise, its INT.

[BrianC14]

It's also specific about jumping. It's legal only if the fielder is lying on the ground - otherwise, its INT.


Ding, ding! I skipped right over that in the updated situation.

Though I'd still would like to see a HS R1 'jump' over a fielder who's not lying down.... :)

"Wow! A 35 inch vertical leap! Nice job! Oh, by the way, you're out." :)

[Richard_Siegel]

Can someone please point me to the rule that applies if a runner jumps over a fielder's glove to avoid a tag? There's been a debate between a few of us over the last few weeks if that is allowed or it is a violation and the runner is out.

Thanks.

Unless it is a FED game it is legal.

[71ump]

I work mostly Fed rule games. I am some what confused about why he would be out. The OP says that he jumped over the fielders glove not the fielder. Am I missing something. Thanks.

[Rich_Ives]

I work mostly Fed rule games. I am some what confused about why he would be out. The OP says that he jumped over the fielders glove not the fielder. Am I missing something. Thanks.

I guess the fielder's hand wasn't in the glove then - right?

[bobjenkins]

I guess the fielder's hand wasn't in the glove then - right?


Doesn't matter. There's a specific FED case play on this. It's legal to jump over the hand / glove of the fielder (or over the fielder's body if the fielder is lying on the ground).

It's only illegal to jump over the fielder's body while the fielder is not lying on the ground.

(And it's always illegal to dive).

[71ump]

Thanks Bob. Sorry Rich but awful nice try. Yes I understand the hand is in the glove but the rule does say fielder. Since the post I did look under fed & it is ONLY the fielder & not the glove.

[Rich_Ives]

Thanks Bob. Sorry Rich but awful nice try. Yes I understand the hand is in the glove but the rule does say fielder. Since the post I did look under fed & it is ONLY the fielder & not the glove.


;) Well, if the hand isn't part of the fielder it must be part of the bat.

[mazzamouth]

The only reason your allowed to jump over a fielder lying on the ground, is to avoid a causing a injury... i do believe the intrep of the rule is so you can jump over a fielder while he is lying on the ground fielding a ball.

[71ump]

Originally Posted by 71ump
Thanks Bob. Sorry Rich but awful nice try. Yes I understand the hand is in the glove but the rule does say fielder. Since the post I did look under fed & it is ONLY the fielder & not the glove.


Rich you posted this response: Well, if the hand isn't part of the fielder it must be part of the bat.

If your answer, Rich, is still saying the hand qualifies him to being put out for jumping over the hand which is in the glove. A fielder who has the ball in his glove placed in front of the bag, & no access to the bag by the runner would then be ruled obstruction. Thereby you would allow the runner to advance to the bag he was attempting to get too.
All I was saying in my original post was the glove with the ball is not the same as a fielder being jumped over. If it is the same, then obstruction SHOULD be called when the fielder has the ball awaiting an oncoming runner.

[robbyrudd45]

Originally Posted by 71ump
Thanks Bob. Sorry Rich but awful nice try. Yes I understand the hand is in the glove but the rule does say fielder. Since the post I did look under fed & it is ONLY the fielder & not the glove.


Rich you posted this response: Well, if the hand isn't part of the fielder it must be part of the bat.

If your answer, Rich, is still saying the hand qualifies him to being put out for jumping over the hand which is in the glove. A fielder who has the ball in his glove placed in front of the bag, & no access to the bag by the runner would then be ruled obstruction. Thereby you would allow the runner to advance to the bag he was attempting to get too.
All I was saying in my original post was the glove with the ball is not the same as a fielder being jumped over. If it is the same, then obstruction SHOULD be called when the fielder has the ball awaiting an oncoming runner.

...you might want to bring your sarcasm detector into the shop for a tune-up :)

[71ump]

Was his, Rich you posted this response: Well, if the hand isn't part of the fielder it must be part of the bat, sarcastic as well? If so touche' if not I apologize for my comments. But it does make sense to ask the question. Maybe not so much in the way it was asked though.

[Rich_Ives]

Was his, Rich you posted this response: Well, if the hand isn't part of the fielder it must be part of the bat, sarcastic as well? If so touche' if not I apologize for my comments. But it does make sense to ask the question. Maybe not so much in the way it was asked though.

That's why I put the wink icon there.

[71ump]

understand the wink icon. dont understand no answer for calling man out for jumping over glove in order to avoid tag. if its hand is in glove is part of person. calling this runner out is going to result in coach ejection.

[Ozzy]

understand the wink icon. dont understand no answer for calling man out for jumping over glove in order to avoid tag. if its hand is in glove is part of person. calling this runner out is going to result in coach ejection.
In FED, you need to refer to the Case Book to understand some of the rules. Here is the 2008 FED Case Book on this:8.4.2 SITUATION T: On a play at the plate, F2 is on his knees. R1 decides to hurdle F2 or jump over him feet first. RULING: The runner is out immediately and unless he makes contact or alters the play of F2, the ball remains live. A runner js required to legally slide or legally attempt to avoid a fielder. Going over the top "of the fielder who is not lying on the ground, such as hurdling, jumping feet first
and diving is dangerous and, therefore, is illegal. The act of obstruction does not negate the runner's responsibility to avoid a fielder legally.

The next 2008 FED Case Book play tells us how to deal with a player that doesn't have the ball:8.4.2 SITUATION U: F4 is in the baseline without the ball (a) on both knees or (b) bending over. R1 hurdles, jumps, leaps or dives over F4. RULING: In (a) and (b), obstruction is ignored. If the runner hurdles, jumps or dives over the fielder, he shall be declared out. These illegal acts supersede obstruction.
You see, there is no getting around the rule in a FED game - it is considered dangerous and therefore illegal. In OBR, it is okay and that is the explanation, cut and dry.

The problem is, we do not make the rules, we have to enforce them as written. If you are new to FED I suggest that you heed the advice the I always give - "You cannot look at FED rules through OBR eyes". If you truly disagree with FED rules, then don't do the games.

And as far as a coach's ejection, hey - they (FED coaches) are the ones who make the rules, every year - we get no input! So if a coach doesn't like a rule, tough $hit! He gets dealt with like any other situation! He either accepts your explanation or he takes a walk. But you need to accept the rules from the FED or just don't do those games.

Enjoy

[71ump]

Thanks Ozzy for the case book scenarios. I still disagree with calling the runner out for jumping over a fielders glove. The very act of a FED runner running to second base who jumps over a glove, laying on the ground awaiting his slide, to be called out for jumping over the glove NOT the fielder makes no sense. I still contend that if this is to be enfoced because the hand in the glove is part of the fielder and therefore gives you just cause to call him out, you must award bases for the same fielder obstructing the base when a runner is sliding into the bag with no access to the bag.

[Ozzy]

Thanks Ozzy for the case book scenarios. I still disagree with calling the runner out for jumping over a fielders glove. The very act of a FED runner running to second base who jumps over a glove, laying on the ground awaiting his slide, to be called out for jumping over the glove NOT the fielder makes no sense. I still contend that if this is to be enfoced because the hand in the glove is part of the fielder and therefore gives you just cause to call him out, you must award bases for the same fielder obstructing the base when a runner is sliding into the bag with no access to the bag.
Well I did neglect to add one detail to your OP. I have never called a runner jumping over a fielders glove out because in all my years, every defensive player was in a prone position when he laid his glove in front of the base! This made the "jump/leap" acceptable by rule.

As far as your agreement or disagreement, again, we do not make the rules but we must enforce them as written.

[DaveReed]

Ozzy,
The following quote, extracted from 8.2.1.D, seems to imply that jumping over the glove would be legal, even if the fielder is not prone.

" RULING: Hurdling the outstretched arms of a fielder is legal. Hurdling or jumping over a fielder who is not lying on the ground is illegal."

[Ozzy]

Ozzy,
The following quote, extracted from 8.2.1.D, seems to imply that jumping over the glove would be legal, even if the fielder is not prone.

" RULING: Hurdling the outstretched arms of a fielder is legal. Hurdling or jumping over a fielder who is not lying on the ground is illegal."
Thanks Dave, that may be a help to our friend.

[KenGibes]

Ozzy,
The following quote, extracted from 8.2.1.D, seems to imply that jumping over the glove would be legal, even if the fielder is not prone.

" RULING: Hurdling the outstretched arms of a fielder is legal. Hurdling or jumping over a fielder who is not lying on the ground is illegal."

Thanks, Dave. I've been following this thread and kept thinking about a stolen base sitch where F6 has fielded a throw from F2 and is knelt down on the home-plate side of 2B and has extended his arm out to put down a tag when the baserunner pops up early from his slide in front of the glove and hops over it onto the bag. In this case, the runner hurdled the glove, but not the actual defender. Your post cleared it up.

[PeteBooth]

Ozzy,
The following quote, extracted from 8.2.1.D, seems to imply that jumping over the glove would be legal, even if the fielder is not prone.

" RULING: Hurdling the outstretched arms of a fielder is legal. Hurdling or jumping over a fielder who is not lying on the ground is illegal."

Dave good info but IMO, the ruling you quoted was put in for cases in which fielders were diving to try and field a batted ball.

In other words, say F4 is diving for the ball and R1 seeing this jumps over the outstretched arms of the fielder. In that case then the danger element is not as great and also R1 is supposed to avoid a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball. If he couldn't jump over the outstretched arms then he would have to alter his route to the next base meaning slow down etc.

However, that's the NOT the case in the OP.

In the OP in a game played by FED rules, the runner would be declared out.

Pete Booth

[71ump]

Pete wrote:
In other words, say F4 is diving for the ball and R1 seeing this jumps over the outstretched arms of the fielder. In that case then the danger element is not as great and also R1 is supposed to avoid a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball. If he couldn't jump over the outstretched arms then he would have to alter his route to the next base meaning slow down etc.

However, that's the NOT the case in the OP.

In the OP in a game played by FED rules, the runner would be declared out.

In the OP he is jumping over the glove. In OBR the runner has the responsibility to avoid the fielder making a play on the ball. So in your response he would be slowing down at most any level, altering his running path & slowing down. So jumping/hurdling a glove is NOT the same as a player.

[BrianC14]

Pete wrote:
In other words, say F4 is diving for the ball and R1 seeing this jumps over the outstretched arms of the fielder. In that case then the danger element is not as great and also R1 is supposed to avoid a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball. If he couldn't jump over the outstretched arms then he would have to alter his route to the next base meaning slow down etc.

However, that's the NOT the case in the OP.

In the OP in a game played by FED rules, the runner would be declared out.

In the OP he is jumping over the glove. In OBR the runner has the responsibility to avoid the fielder making a play on the ball. So in your response he would be slowing down at most any level, altering his running path & slowing down. So jumping/hurdling a glove is NOT the same as a player.

I didn't see in the OP where the fielder was attempting to field the ball.

[PeteBooth]

In the OP he is jumping over the glove. In OBR the runner has the responsibility to avoid the fielder making a play on the ball. So in your response he would be slowing down at most any level, altering his running path & slowing down. So jumping/hurdling a glove is NOT the same as a player.[/QUOTE]

Do not know what you are getting at other than to get a 'rise' out of everyone.

The addendum that Dave gave us for the most part references fielders in the act of fielding batted balls when they dive for it and have their outstretched arms prone to the ground. In that case the fielder may jump over the prone arm and continue on.

The OP is not dealing with a fielder fielding a batted ball but applying a TAG.

FED EXPLICITLY states this and Ozzy quoted you the FED Case plays which deal with this SAME type of issue.

You worry about a coach complaing. The one you should be worrying about is the Coach who KNOWS the FED rule.

It's obvious you are either new to FED rules or simply want to get a rise out of everyone.

Pete Booth

[DaveReed]

The addendum that Dave gave us for the most part references fielders in the act of fielding batted balls when they dive for it and have their outstretched arms prone to the ground. In that case the fielder may jump over the prone arm and continue on.
Fielding a batted ball? I guess I should have posted the entire caseplay the first time:

"8.2.1 SITUATION D: R1 is on third with no outs. R1 attempts to score on a fly ball to F8. F8’s throw to F2 is near perfect. R1 sees that the play is going to be close. As F2 stretches for the ball to tag R1, R1 attempts to hurdle F2’s outstretched arms as the ball bounces in front of the plate and skips into dead-ball territory. As R1 is in the air, F2’s glove catches R1’s foot and both lose their balance and tumble to the ground. (a) R1 gets up and proceeds to the dugout or (b) R1 crawls back and touches the plate. RULING: Hurdling the outstretched arms of a fielder is legal. Hurdling or jumping over a fielder who is not lying on the ground is illegal. In (a), the umpire shall call R1 out for missing the plate upon a proper defensive appeal. In (b), R1’s run would count."

Seem to me that this caseplay shows that the runner was acting legally in the OP.

[bobjenkins]

Seem to me that this caseplay shows that the runner was acting legally in the OP.


I agree with this and disagree with Pete's assertion in this thread.

[PeteBooth]

Hurdling or jumping over a fielder who is not lying on the ground is illegal.

Seem to me that this caseplay shows that the runner was acting legally in the OP.[/QUOTE]

From the OP

Can someone please point me to the rule that applies if a runner jumps over a fielder's glove to avoid a tag?


The aforementioned statement in and by itself was answered with case plays provided by Ozzy.

You say Seem to me that this caseplay shows that the runner was acting legally in the OP

My answer : Your statement is valid IF the fielder was prone. No-where does the OP say "Please point me to the rule that applies if a runner jumps over a fielder's glove if the fielder is in a prone position or lying on the ground".

The aforementioned is something that you and another poster are "reading into"

Put it another way.

Suppose the STRICT wording of the OP was a test question on a FED exam In other words the question said It is legal for a runner to hurdle or jump over a fielder's glove on a tag attempt.

The answer would be false UNLESS a caveat was added namely Fielder in prone position.

Pete Booth

[DaveReed]

Pete,
Did you notice this sentence in caseplay 8.2.1D: "As R1 is in the air, F2’s glove catches R1’s foot and both lose their balance and tumble to the ground."?

SInce F2 ends up "tumbling to the ground", he clearly can't be prone when R1 hurdles. The caseplay illustrates a fielder who isn't fielding a batted ball, and who isn't prone.

According to this caseplay, hurdling the glove is legal.

[PeteBooth]

Pete,
Did you notice this sentence in caseplay 8.2.1D: "As R1 is in the air, F2’s glove catches R1’s foot and both lose their balance and tumble to the ground."?

SInce F2 ends up "tumbling to the ground", he clearly can't be prone when R1 hurdles. The caseplay illustrates a fielder who isn't fielding a batted ball, and who isn't prone.

According to this caseplay, hurdling the glove is legal.

I read the Case-Play and if I am wrong I am wrong however, the Case-Play some-what contradicts FED's stance on safety.

Why does FED not allow a runner to hurdle / Jump over a fielder who is not prone?

Re: - Safety

Then why would FED then allow a runner to jump / hurdle a fielder's glove who is not prone?

Example using F2. I have seen and so have many of you some rather large and big F2's at the HS varsity level.

I had one F2 who stood 6ft. 5" If he is standing upright and uses his glove to tag a runner, the outstretched glove is some 6 ft. high. Why would FED being as safety concious as they are then allow a runner to hurdle / jump over the glove when in the same breath they cannot hurdle / jump over the fielder who is not prone?

I know we cannot take all the risk out of sports but when you have one rule that says you cannot jump / hurdle over a fielder who is not prone but then say it's ok to jump / hurdle a glove from a fielder who is not prone is somewhat contradictory.

Not all of FED Case Play's are "crystal clear" as evidenced by the Case Play on the new OBS rule which is unclear at best.

Until something like this happens in a HS State final etc. it will most likely not be cause of concern.

Pete Booth

[BigUmp56]

I'll never understand why the words "I was wrong" are so hard to say sometimes.


Tim.

[Matt13]

I read the Case-Play and if I am wrong I am wrong however, the Case-Play some-what contradicts FED's stance on safety.

Why does FED not allow a runner to hurdle / Jump over a fielder who is not prone?

Re: - Safety

More specifically, to protect the head and neck of the fielder.

Then why would FED then allow a runner to jump / hurdle a fielder's glove who is not prone?

There are very few humans who have a head or neck at the distal end of the arm.

Example using F2. I have seen and so have many of you some rather large and big F2's at the HS varsity level.

I had one F2 who stood 6ft. 5" If he is standing upright and uses his glove to tag a runner, the outstretched glove is some 6 ft. high. Why would FED being as safety concious as they are then allow a runner to hurdle / jump over the glove when in the same breath they cannot hurdle / jump over the fielder who is not prone?

I know we cannot take all the risk out of sports but when you have one rule that says you cannot jump / hurdle over a fielder who is not prone but then say it's ok to jump / hurdle a glove from a fielder who is not prone is somewhat contradictory.

Not all of FED Case Play's are "crystal clear" as evidenced by the Case Play on the new OBS rule which is unclear at best.

Until something like this happens in a HS State final etc. it will most likely not be cause of concern.

Pete Booth

What Tim said.

[71ump]

Alright - let me be more specific. R1 stealing second and F4 is holding the ball in front of second base to apply the tag. The runner jumps over the glove and touches second base without being tagged. Safe or out? Give me OBR and Fed. Thanks.

Pete you indicated in your last post that if a fielder, six feet or taller, was standing up & the runner jumped his out stretched glove that would be reason for the out call due to fed rule of safety. I might agree. However, based on the post if the fielder jumped over the glove of a six foot or taller player he would miss the bag. The post says the glove is in front of the bag so were probably looking at a jump of 12-18 inches, maybe?

[heyblue26]

Wow!! If he can jump that high he must be a pole vaulter. I have only seen a player jump over a second baseman in NFHS baseball and that was when I was playing ball in portland oregon in 1963. Of course that's probably long before they changed the rules as they are today. And I agree that it is a safety issue.

If it is illegal and the player does it Sorry "He's OUT"

[Ozzy]

You know what, this thread needs to die now!

[CoachJM]

Alright - let me be more specific. R1 stealing second and F4 is holding the ball in front of second base to apply the tag. The runner jumps over the glove and touches second base without being tagged. Safe or out? Give me OBR and Fed. Thanks.

...

71ump,

In the sitch you pose, whether in a FED or OBR-based game, the runner is safe.

In OBR there is no rule prohibiting jumping/hurdling/diving over a fielder.

In FED, the 8.1.2d Case play language, "...Hurdling the outstretched arms of a fielder is legal. ..." explicitly relieves the runner from liability to be called out in this sitch. This assertion is further reinforced by the BRD treatment of the subject (#284, for those following along at home): "A runner may legally hurdle an outstretched arm."

Since both the case play and the authoritative opinion say it is legal, an umpire who called the runner out in this sitch would be "making up rules".

JM

[mazzamouth]

Does anyone have the Rules by topic book?.... well I do and it has a great play of this in that book..

2008 issue. pg.158.

R1 is on third with no outs. R1 attempts to score on a fly ball to f8. F8's throw to F2 is near perfect. R1 sees that the play is going to be close. As F2 stretches for the ball to tag R1, R1 attempts to hurdle F2's outstretched arms as the ball bounces in front of the plate and skips into dead ball territory. As R1 is in the air, F2's glove catches R1's foot and both lose their balance and tumble to the ground (a) R1gets up and proceeds to the dugout or ( b) R1 crawls back and touches homeplate. Ruling Hurdling the outstretched arms of a fielder is legal. hurdling or jumping over a fielder who is not lying on the ground is illegal . In (a), the umpire shall call R1 out out for missing the plate upon a proper defensive appeal. In (b), R1's run would count.


I hope this helps.

[heyblue26]

Yes I sure do have that same book and I just took it off the shelf and read what you had posted from it and that should help clear this up. Thanks