Runner Interference

[findit99]

Bases loaded no outs. Ground ball to F4, but R1 cuts in front of him and ball hits R1 on the foot and bounces into the outfield, two runs score and R1 makes it to third base.

So we had the bases loaded - I let R3's run count, I put R2 back on third, R1 out on the interference, and the batter back to 1st base.

Is the ball immediately dead after hitting the runner? How should the runners be placed?

[mstaylor]

The ball is dead as soon as it hits him. BR goes to first, all other runners return. So you have bases loaded and 1 out.

[ricka56]

yes...R1 is out, AND the ball is dead.

How do you award R3 home on interference/dead ball?

[widac]

I agree that the ball is dead as soon as it hits the runner, R1 is out and BR is on first. These statements are clearly listed in Fed 8-4-2k and OBR 7.08(f) and 7.09(k)

I also agree that all runners go back to their original bases at time of pitch but I am having trouble finding that statement in the rules. Can someone point me to that statement?.

[ricka56]

finish reading 7.08(f)

Any runner is out when_ (f) He is touched by a fair ball in fair territory before the ball has touched or passed an infielder. The ball is dead and no runner may score, nor runners advance, except runners forced to advance.

[widac]

well OK then, thanks

[findit99]

finish reading 7.08(f)

Any runner is out when_ (f) He is touched by a fair ball in fair territory before the ball has touched or passed an infielder. The ball is dead and no runner may score, nor runners advance, except runners forced to advance.

This would mean everyone forced gets one base - so then R3 would be awarded home?

[carolinablue]

Since R1 is out the force is removed on R2 and R3. R3 remains at 3B, R2 remains at 2B and batter/runner is on 1B.

[widac]

carolinablue wrote:
Since R1 is out the force is removed on R2 and R3. R3 remains at 3B, R2 remains at 2B and batter/runner is on 1B.
************************************************** **********************
I think the above is misleading although it leads to the same result. I think if you cement in your mind that "The ball is dead and no runner may score, nor runners advance, except runners forced to advance." on interference you'll be doing yourself a BIG favor. The force being removed from R2 and R3 when R1 was called out for Interference had nothing to do with why they had to return to their previous base.

[carolinablue]

understood, but the poster seemed to be thinking that the runner was forced therefore must score. I agree with what you said though.

[GoodCallBlue]

A different situation.....

R2, outs don't matter.

Groundball hit to F6. R2, advancing to 3B, gets hit by the ball. F6 stays with the play and throws in time to get BR at 1B.

In this case, would you reward BR 1B, or allow the double play to stand?

[widac]

The ball is DEAD when it hits the runner.

I think if you cement in your mind that "The ball is dead and no runner may score, nor runners advance, except runners forced to advance." on interference you'll be doing yourself a BIG favor.

BR gets first.

[BrianC14]

[quote="GoodCallBlue"]A different situation.....

R2, outs don't matter.

Groundball hit to F6. R2, advancing to 3B, gets hit by the ball. F6 stays with the play and throws in time to get BR at 1B.

In this case, would you reward BR 1B, or allow the double play to stand?


:roll:

[GoodCallBlue]

Whatever, Brian. Roll your eyes all you want.

[BrianC14]

[quote="GoodCallBlue"]Whatever, Brian. Roll your eyes all you want.


Yes, I will roll my eyes, and with good reason.

Have you even bothered to read the (educated and experienced) responses on this thread?

Have you even bothered to read the rules that have been cited?

If you'd had, then you wouldn't have asked such a silly question.

[PeteBooth]

finish reading 7.08(f)

Any runner is out when_ (f) He is touched by a fair ball in fair territory before the ball has touched or passed an infielder. The ball is dead and no runner may score, nor runners advance, except runners forced to advance.

This would mean everyone forced gets one base - so then R3 would be awarded home?

Whenever one trys to learn and understand the rules think of both the history of the rule and why it exists.

On a ball hitting the runner. If the run from third base was allowed to score, then runners would purposely get hit with ball especially in a close game that's why the ball is dead immediately and runners return to their TOP bases.

Pete Booth

[BrianC14]

[quote=ricka56]finish reading 7.08(f)

Any runner is out when_ (f) He is touched by a fair ball in fair territory before the ball has touched or passed an infielder. The ball is dead and no runner may score, nor runners advance, except runners forced to advance.

This would mean everyone forced gets one base - so then R3 would be awarded home?

Whenever one trys to learn and understand the rules think of both the history of the rule and why it exists.

On a ball hitting the runner. If the run from third base was allowed to score, then runners would purposely get hit with ball especially in a close game that's why the ball is dead immediately and runners return to their TOP bases.

Pete Booth

Good summation, Pete! GoodCallBlue - please read and try to understand what Pete has said here and apply it to your "different" situation. (Which isn't "different" at all).

[GoodCallBlue]

No, it was a legitimate question that I felt needed to be asked. Why award the BR with 1B if the defense can continue on with the play?

In most cases with runner interference, the ball will be deflected away from the defense player. In the case I was describing, the ball was deflected right to the defense player, who made the throw to 1B in time to get the BR.

I took the time to read the rules and interpretations and still thought that this situation may be a little different. A response like widac was appropriate. A sarcastic response like yours is childish and not needed.

[BrianC14]

[quote="GoodCallBlue"]No, it was a legitimate question that I felt needed to be asked. Why award the BR with 1B if the defense can continue on with the play?

In most cases with runner interference, the ball will be deflected away from the defense player. In the case I was describing, the ball was deflected right to the defense player, who made the throw to 1B in time to get the BR.

I took the time to read the rules and interpretations and still thought that this situation may be a little different. A response like widac was appropriate. A sarcastic response like yours is childish and not needed.

No, your situation isn't different. What part of the "the ball is dead" did you not understand? Please show in the rules you've alleged to have read which allows for your "different" situation?

[TarheelUmp]

You may be confusing this with a delayed dead ball type situation.

As umpires we generally like delayed dead balls because it gives us the opportunity to get more outs or atleast let the play resolve itself.

As Pete said, its good to think of it as to why the rule exists. In your case being hit helped the defense, but you can't be sure that would happen in the future.

This is one of the (rare? :) ) situations where the rule is well spelled out and there is not much room for interpretation.

[GoodCallBlue]

Thank you, Pete and Tarheel, for your explanations and appropriate responses.

[PeteBooth]

No, it was a legitimate question that I felt needed to be asked. Why award the BR with 1B if the defense can continue on with the play?

In most cases with runner interference, the ball will be deflected away from the defense player. In the case I was describing, the ball was deflected right to the defense player, who made the throw to 1B in time to get the BR.

I took the time to read the rules and interpretations and still thought that this situation may be a little different. A response like widac was appropriate. A sarcastic response like yours is childish and not needed.

Do not complicate matters not only for yourself but for new umpires who are learning the rules for the first time.

For the most part whenever we have interference (There are exceptions like F2 interference or F2 OBS in FED) the call is

1. TIME
2. Somebody is out

In the case of deliberate interference we could also have 2 on the play.

Also, except on rare occassions whenever a runner is hit by a batterd ball they are out.

Interference is an IMMEDIATE dead ball and runners return to their TOP bases (Except FED where we place the runners at TOI except on a FPSR violation)

We do not "wait and see" when we judge interference. Whatever happens after the interference is irrelevant except as I noted on those rare occassions when we have F2 interefence or umpire interference but F2 throws out the runner anyway.

Do not complicate your life.

Pete Booth

[robbyrudd45]

GoodCallBlue,

If you are working a FED game, with the type of interference you posted in your play, you can award a double play (R2 and BR are out) if in your judgment a double play was possible.

OBR requires intent to bang the DP.

In both cases, the ball is dead immediately.

[BrianC14]

[quote="robbyrudd45"]GoodCallBlue,

If you are working a FED game, with the type of interference you posted in your play, you can award a double play (R2 and BR are out) if in your judgment a double play was possible.

OBR requires intent to bang the DP.

In both cases, the ball is dead immediately.

Robby, please cite the FED rule for this.

[robbyrudd45]

Brian,


8-4-2g

"If, in the judgment of the umpire, a runner including the batter-runner interferes in any way and prevents a double play anywhere, two shall be declared out (the runner who interfered and the other runner involved)."

There are also multiple references in the case book as well

[BrianC14]

[quote="robbyrudd45"]Brian,


8-4-2g

"If, in the judgment of the umpire, a runner including the batter-runner interferes in any way and prevents a double play anywhere, two shall be declared out (the runner who interfered and the other runner involved)."

There are also multiple references in the case book as well

Robby,

I disagree. It seems to me that you've cherry-picked a portion of subparagraph (g) which deals with interference on a throw or thrown ball.

If a runner is hit by a batted ball as described previously, the ball is dead immediately. There is no 'wait and see if a play can be made' provision that would allow for a double play to be awarded by the umpire.

[mazzamouth]

.

I took the time to read the rules and interpretations and still thought that this situation may be a little different. A response like widac was appropriate. A sarcastic response like yours is childish and not needed.


goodcallblue..... Brian14 is really a nice guy and he isnt talking liket that at you... He is one of the truly nice guys on this board.

[GoodCallBlue]

I respect his opinion. I've read a lot of his replies and see that he is very knowledgeable and can communicate his point clearly. Why waste time making a post with an emoticon rolling his eyes? What point does that make? That added nothing to the discussion and was not needed.

[BigUmp56]

Calm down guys. I understand what you're saying, GCBlue. I think that for clarification sake it would be best if you made clear that you're trying to debate what you feel the rule should be, not what the rule is as written. For now the rule is what it is, and that is that a batted ball that hits a runner is an immediate dead ball with limited exceptions. Those exceptions would include a ball that has passed immediately by an infielder, or that has been deflected by an infielder. It couldn't be more cut and dry......


Tim.

[robbyrudd45]

Brian,


Look at casebook play 8.2.6B which describes our situation exactly.

[BrianC14]

[quote="robbyrudd45"]Brian,


Look at casebook play 8.2.6B which describes our situation exactly.

Casebook work is all well and good, Robby, but I wouldn't rule that based on the situation as given. You'd have to be SURE that F-whatever was about to perform a textbook DP.

As written, the rule states that ball will become dead IMMEDIATELY. Your sitch provides for a play that continues after the ball is dead. Based on the rule as written, NO way I'm calling that a DP.

As I said, the casebook is all well and good, but when have you ever seen/heard of a DP on this play?

Casebook: Maybe.
Reality: Never.

And you're going to explain (to an irate OC) that "well coach, in the casebook, it says..."

Good luck with that.

[DaveReed]

Guys,
The argument has reached the point that, based on Brian's last post, I can't tell for sure with whom he is arguing. So, with apologies to Pete Booth, who has already posted most of this earlier in this thread:
1. On any interference by a runner, the ball is immediately dead. Any further action by the fielders is irrelevant.
2. The interfering runner is out.
3. If the interference, even though unintentional, hinders a double play, a second out is declared, usually the B/R. Note that 8-4-1h mentions an obvious double play, while 8-4-2g phrases it as preventing a double play. Note also that OBR has a similar rule, but intent is required.
4. If the interference is a violation of FPSR, two outs are automatic, regardless of the umpires opinion of the possibility of a DP. (8-4-2b penalty)

Now, in the second situation 8.4.2g, with R1 and R2, and a ground ball to F6, this most certainly is a textbook DP situation, and unless the hit and run was on or it was a very slow roller, if R2 is struck by the ball, you should declare two outs.

[robbyrudd45]

Brian,

I'm with you 100% from the beginning. I would also never rule this a DP!

I thought you were just refuting the rule, but as you see it does exist in FED play. I was originally just stating a difference between FED and OBR.

[mazzamouth]

I dont understand why there is 3 pages on this.....THE BALL HIT THE RUNNER.... ITS A DEAD BALL NOBODY......NOBODY... ..CAN ADVANCE.. Im sorry but I cant see why there is some many pages on this. this is a easy rule.

[mazzamouth]

Guys,


Now, in the second situation 8.4.2g, with R1 and R2, and a ground ball to F6, this most certainly is a textbook DP situation, and unless the hit and run was on or it was a very slow roller, if R2 is struck by the ball, you should declare two outs.


you cant assume a DP.... no way not ever..... try to sell that one to a coach..." Hey Coach i thought it might have been a DP"

[BrianC14]

Guys,


Now, in the second situation 8.4.2g, with R1 and R2, and a ground ball to F6, this most certainly is a textbook DP situation, and unless the hit and run was on or it was a very slow roller, if R2 is struck by the ball, you should declare two outs.


you cant assume a DP.... no way not ever..... try to sell that one to a coach..." Hey Coach i thought it might have been a DP"

....................................

Which takes me back to my "Eye roll" post.

This time, I'll just :wink:

[mazzamouth]

Guys,


Now, in the second situation 8.4.2g, with R1 and R2, and a ground ball to F6, this most certainly is a textbook DP situation, and unless the hit and run was on or it was a very slow roller, if R2 is struck by the ball, you should declare two outs.


you cant assume a DP.... no way not ever..... try to sell that one to a coach..." Hey Coach i thought it might have been a DP"

....................................

Which takes me back to my "Eye roll" post.

This time, I'll just :wink:


.............................................

I know Brian... I know....

[Richard_Siegel]

I dont understand why there is 3 pages on this.....THE BALL HIT THE RUNNER.... ITS A DEAD BALL NOBODY......NOBODY... ..CAN ADVANCE.. Im sorry but I cant see why there is some many pages on this. this is a easy rule.

Well...actually.... .....SOMEBODY.....SOMEBODY.....SOMEBODY CAN ADVANCE......

Suppose you have R1 and R2. R2 is hit bat the batted ball and declared out for interference. At the end of the play the BR is placed on 1B and R1 is placed on 2B. Didn't R1 advance?

[mstaylor]

If you had said nobody but nobody could score then you would have been correct. As Richard pointed out it is possible to advance if forced.