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HittingZone
10-26-2008, 07:50 PM
Last night, Gm 3 of the WS, there was an incident where an unearned run was later changed to an earned run. My problem is, I can't find the rule which supports this.

My understanding is that, in certain cases, an unearned run should be changed to an earned run by virtue of the sequence of events that follows the error, INT or OBS call that initially caused the run to be ruled as unearned.

EX) R3; Passed Ball; R3 scores (unearned). Next batter singles to right. The unearned run is now changed to earned with the logic that without the passed ball, R3 would have scored on the base hit. (However, it seems to me that you should therefore credit the batter with an RBI).

Last night's example was not quite so cut and dried:

With no outs in the 8th, Upton stole 3rd, then scored on the throwing error by the catcher (Ruiz). Initially, the run was scored as unearned. Next, Peña struck out. Next, Longoria grounded out 4-3. Then, the run was changed to earned.

This seems odd to me. Had Longoria singled, then clearly, I follow the logic of changing the run to earned. However, on a ground out, who knows what would have happened? The Phillies would likely have pulled the infield in, and Upton may have been thrown out at the plate or he may have simply held at 3rd.

Another scenario that I wouldn't know how to score is similar. Assume R3; no outs; passed ball; R3 scored (unearned). Next, batter flies out to the warning track. Shouldn't this change the prior run to earned? BUT ... what if he flew out to the middle outfield? What if he lined out to an outfielder running straight toward home who may have been able to gun down R3 trying to tag and score? Does changing the unearned run to earned become a scorer's judgment call?

Can anyone shed light on this? I find none of it in the OBR book.

scorekeep
05-28-2010, 09:51 PM
Hope you’re still out there HZ.

Last night, Gm 3 of the WS, there was an incident where an unearned run was later changed to an earned run. My problem is, I can't find the rule which supports this.

My understanding is that, in certain cases, an unearned run should be changed to an earned run by virtue of the sequence of events that follows the error, INT or OBS call that initially caused the run to be ruled as unearned.

EX) R3; Passed Ball; R3 scores (unearned). Next batter singles to right. The unearned run is now changed to earned with the logic that without the passed ball, R3 would have scored on the base hit. (However, it seems to me that you should therefore credit the batter with an RBI).

Problem is, you’re assuming something that isn’t true, and its caused a problem.

Using OBR as a reference, here’s a quote from 10.16;

An earned run is a run for which a pitcher is held accountable. In determining earned runs, the official scorer shall reconstruct the inning without the errors (which exclude catcher’s interference) and passed balls, giving the benefit of the doubt always to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by runners had there been errorless play.

The only way that run would have been unearned is if the game ended when it scored. Other than that, no run where one of those things occurs is technically either earned or unearned.

Last night's example was not quite so cut and dried:

With no outs in the 8th, Upton stole 3rd, then scored on the throwing error by the catcher (Ruiz). Initially, the run was scored as unearned. Next, Peña struck out. Next, Longoria grounded out 4-3. Then, the run was changed to earned.

This seems odd to me. Had Longoria singled, then clearly, I follow the logic of changing the run to earned. However, on a ground out, who knows what would have happened? The Phillies would likely have pulled the infield in, and Upton may have been thrown out at the plate or he may have simply held at 3rd.

To get the answer, look at the bold blue above.

I’m going to assume Upton reached 2nd on errorless play. When he stole 3rd, it too was with errorless play. The K made it 1 down, and next came a 4-3 groundout.

Now we get to something I don’t believe is dealt with specifically, but there are places in the rules that give a scorer guidelines he can extrapolate. In 10.08(d)(2) it talks about how an RBI on a sac fly can be scored even if there was an error. It says an RBI can be scored if a ball in flight is dropped, and a runner scores, if in the scorer’s judgment the runner could have scored after the catch had the fly been caught.

Also in 10.04(a)(3) it says and RBI shall be credited when, before two are out, an error is made on a play on which a runner from third base ordinarily would score.

From that, it can be assumed that the scorer is given the ability to exercise his/her judgment about how whether or not a run would have taken scored. Going from there, it can be assumed the scorer also has the ability to judge whether or not a run would have ordinarily scored on a ball put into play, especially a ground ball to 2nd in the given situation.




Another scenario that I wouldn't know how to score is similar. Assume R3; no outs; passed ball; R3 scored (unearned). Next, batter flies out to the warning track. Shouldn't this change the prior run to earned? BUT ... what if he flew out to the middle outfield? What if he lined out to an outfielder running straight toward home who may have been able to gun down R3 trying to tag and score? Does changing the unearned run to earned become a scorer's judgment call?

Can anyone shed light on this? I find none of it in the OBR book.

Hope that helped.

Ironhead17
06-06-2010, 06:23 PM
Sckp

good discussion. Interesting topic. Last night I scored a KE2 (strike out dropped and batter reached safely) for a passed ball but the official scorer didn't record it as an error.

Why aren't wild pitches and passed balls recored as errors when they contribute to unearned runs?

Iron

Rich_Ives
06-06-2010, 07:50 PM
Sckp

good discussion. Interesting topic. Last night I scored a KE2 (strike out dropped and batter reached safely) for a passed ball but the official scorer didn't record it as an error.

Why aren't wild pitches and passed balls recored as errors when they contribute to unearned runs?

Iron

An uncauhgt third strike where the batter reaches safely can be scored a WP, PB or E depending on how it played out. It isn't automatically anything.

Generally it's either a WP or PB as it usually happens when the pitch ends up at the backstop. But if the catcher ppicks it up in time, or has it already but caught it on a bounce and then throws it away or the fielder drops the throw you can score an error.

WP's and PB's are not scored as errors - ever. HOWEVER, their effect on scoring and earned vs. unearned runs IS covered in the rules so it doesn't matter.

If a runner scores on a WP it is ALWAYS and earned run as it it solely the pitcher's fault.

scorekeep
06-06-2010, 08:07 PM
good discussion. Interesting topic. Last night I scored a KE2 (strike out dropped and batter reached safely) for a passed ball but the official scorer didn't record it as an error.

Why aren't wild pitches and passed balls recored as errors when they contribute to unearned runs?

Actually, that one’s pretty easy for a scorer because its one of the “Commandments”. ;)

Sorry to quote so many different rules, but hopefully you’ll see the answer to your question is, he can’t score it an error because the rules say it isn’t one.

10.12(e)The official scorer shall not charge an error when the batter is awarded first base on four called balls, when the batter is awarded first base when touched by a pitched ball, or when the batter reaches first base as the result of a wild pitch or passed ball.

10.12(f) The official scorer shall not charge an error when a runner or runners advance as the result of a passed ball, a wild pitch or a balk.
(1) When the fourth called ball is a wild pitch or a passed ball and as a result
(i) the batter-runner advances to a base beyond first base;
(ii) any runner forced to advance by the base on balls advances more than one base; or
(iii) any runner, not forced to advance, advances one or more bases,
the official scorer shall score the base on balls and also the wild pitch or passed ball, as the case may be. …

10.16… In determining earned runs, the official scorer shall reconstruct the inning without the errors (which exclude catcher’s interference) and passed balls, giving the benefit of the doubt always to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by runners had there been errorless play.

10.16(a) The official scorer shall charge an earned run against a pitcher every time a runner reaches home base by the aid of safe hits, sacrifice bunts, a sacrifice fly, stolen bases, putouts, fielder’s choices, bases on balls, hit batters, balks or wild pitches (including a wild pitch on third strike that permits a batter to reach first base) before fielding chances have been offered to put out the offensive team. For the purpose of this rule, a defensive interference penalty shall be construed as a fielding chance. A wild pitch is solely the pitcher’s fault and shall contribute to an earned run just as a base on balls or a balk.

10.16(d)No run shall be earned when the scoring runner’s advance has been aided by an error, a passed ball or defensive interference or obstruction, if in the official scorer’s judgment the run would not have scored without the aid of such misplay.

estimated
06-20-2011, 07:28 PM
Quick question on same wavelength.

Two outs with runner on second

Runner on second reaches third on a pass ball.

Batter walks.

Runners advance on a balk - scoring a run.

Next batter grounds out to end inning.

Is the run earned or unearned, since the player would not have been at third without the pass ball