What do you think?

[MAump74]

The following situation happened to my partner and I while doing a 15year old travel league game:

Two man mechanics: R2 and R3, 0 outs. Runners moving on the pitch, BR squares and lays down a good bunt up the 1BL, as U1, I watch play develop and follow F1's throw to 1B to retire BR. F3 fails to notice as R2 slides into the plate safely. DC instantly has his pitcher appeal to 3B that R2 missed the bag, to which my partner bangs him out.

Between innings my partner tells me R2 cut in about 10 feet from the base. As the OC walks by us, he said usually the plate guy misses that because hes watching the the plate the whole time and the base guy is watching the BR. My partner gives him a sarcastic "I have peripheral vision you know."

The sad fact is that it obviously has worked for him in past games. Any suggestions on what to do with a coach who deliberately devises plays to exploit weaknesses in the two man system?

Thanks,

MAump74

[LouDore]

Any suggestions on what to do with a coach who deliberately devises plays to exploit weaknesses in the two man system?

eject him and his player for making a mockery of the game.

he deliberately cheated and then told you/your partner about his ruse? gone.

[Richard_Siegel]

The following situation happened to my partner and I while doing a 15year old travel league game:

Two man mechanics: R2 and R3, 0 outs. Runners moving on the pitch, BR squares and lays down a good bunt up the 1BL, as U1, I watch play develop and follow F1's throw to 1B to retire BR. F3 fails to notice as R2 slides into the plate safely. DC instantly has his pitcher appeal to 3B that R2 missed the bag, to which my partner bangs him out.

Between innings my partner tells me R2 cut in about 10 feet from the base. As the OC walks by us, he said usually the plate guy misses that because hes watching the the plate the whole time and the base guy is watching the BR. My partner gives him a sarcastic "I have peripheral vision you know."

The sad fact is that it obviously has worked for him in past games. Any suggestions on what to do with a coach who deliberately devises plays to exploit weaknesses in the two man system?

Thanks,

MAump74

What was done in your game to penalize the offense, declaring R2 out upon proper appeal, was all that should have been done. Nothing more. No warnings, no lectures, no advice. When a rule contains a penalty for violating it, enforce that penalty. We do not have the authority nor the right to invent additional penalties.

The objective of the game is to win. Part of the strategy to win is to exploit mistakes and weaknesses of the other team. I don't think they deliberately devise plays to exploit weaknesses in the two man system. Rather, this play expoits the inattention of the defense to notice a runner missing a base.

In your game there was NO weakness in the two man system, you guys nailed it! Granted, not every 2 man crew will be a good as you two guys, but it is still the defense who has to notice the missed base and appeal it. I am willing to bet that most defenses never notice this and the umpires do! It's just that the umpires can't say anything about it unles the defense appeals it. If there in no appeal, then it is never mentioned. The coach can not know who really missed it.

Deliberately missing base is not unsportmanlike behavior. It is a runner taking a gamble that he will not get caught. Just like everyone in NJ who talks on his cell phone while driving. Here, doing that is illegal and a $250 fine! The judge can't double the fine, nor revoke your license. He has to follow the penal code in the law.

As umpires we all have a sense of "fair play" and want to see both teams play within the rules. However, the authors of the rules knew that teams will sometimes try to cheat so they stipulated what penalty the cheaters will pay. If the rule was writtren like this: "When a proper appeal is made on a runner who has missed a base he shall be delcared out, and the umpire may tack on any other penalties he feels like at the time." Then I would say do want you want. Otherwise, keep to the rules.

[StLouBlue]

The following situation happened to my partner and I while doing a 15year old travel league game:

Two man mechanics: R2 and R3, 0 outs. Runners moving on the pitch, BR squares and lays down a good bunt up the 1BL, as U1, I watch play develop and follow F1's throw to 1B to retire BR. F3 fails to notice as R2 slides into the plate safely. DC instantly has his pitcher appeal to 3B that R2 missed the bag, to which my partner bangs him out.



I have a stupid question, but it really is a legitimate one! When you say you were "U1" in a 2 man system, what does that mean? PU or BU? I've seen people use UIC for PU and U1 for BU, and others use U1 and U2.

Thanks!

[MAump74]

StLouBlue,

Being new to this forum I too am unsure of what the accepted abbreviations are. Personally I always use PU for the plate guy and then U1, U2, and U3 to define the base umpires. I'm slowly beginning to figure out the "code" but there are obviously several variations to it. Always remember, a stupid question is one that goes unasked--at least that's what teachers always say 8)

Thanks everyone for the input in this situation, I too felt that there was nothing else necessary to do in this case, after all the rule doesn't specify between a runner missing a base by 3 inches or 3 feet so why penalize differently.

[mfs914]

I actually saw this done once when i was playing in my HS days. The umpires nailed it then to.

Also, agree with the group in saying that there should be no additional action taken. It is part of the game, just like stealin signs. It is frowned upon however there is no penalty for it.

As for the abbrev. PU and BU are usually used when refering to the 2 man system. I beileve we use U1, U2, and U3 when there are more then one base umpire.

[dileonardoja]

Any suggestions on what to do with a coach who deliberately devises plays to exploit weaknesses in the two man system?

eject him and his player for making a mockery of the game.

he deliberately cheated and then told you/your partner about his ruse? gone.

Totally disagree. Richard has it right on. I will pose a question to you Lou. F8 makes a diving catch but as he rolls over the balls comes loose for a second but he quickly puts it back in his glove, then raises the glove for all to see that he maintained control. You, the astute, correctly position umpire, notice the lose of control and declare it a safely hit ball. Do you eject the F8 for cheating since he is trying to sell the catch even though he knows he did not control the ball?

[Ozzy]

Any suggestions on what to do with a coach who deliberately devises plays to exploit weaknesses in the two man system?

eject him and his player for making a mockery of the game.

he deliberately cheated and then told you/your partner about his ruse? gone.
Why eject? They took a shot and the defense caught them in the act. Even in the 2 man system, we have to watch the action as best we can - that is our job. Intentionally missing a base is legal as long as you are not caught by the defense! By the way, the comment from the umpire "I have peripheral vision you know." was not necessary. Actually, no comment to the coach was needed as he knew that he got caught.

[LouDore]

Any suggestions on what to do with a coach who deliberately devises plays to exploit weaknesses in the two man system?

eject him and his player for making a mockery of the game.

he deliberately cheated and then told you/your partner about his ruse? gone.

Totally disagree. Richard has it right on. I will pose a question to you Lou. F8 makes a diving catch but as he rolls over the balls comes loose for a second but he quickly puts it back in his glove, then raises the glove for all to see that he maintained control. You, the astute, correctly position umpire, notice the lose of control and declare it a safely hit ball. Do you eject the F8 for cheating since he is trying to sell the catch even though he knows he did not control the ball?

the obvious (and correct) answer to this new question is no -- but I do think there's a major difference between this and intentionally missing a base by 10 feet. However, I'm convinced now (after re-reading http://www.umpire.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=6618 also) that simply calling the out on appeal is the only necessary penalty.
thanks.

[MAump74]

Any suggestions on what to do with a coach who deliberately devises plays to exploit weaknesses in the two man system?

eject him and his player for making a mockery of the game.

he deliberately cheated and then told you/your partner about his ruse? gone.
Why eject? They took a shot and the defense caught them in the act. Even in the 2 man system, we have to watch the action as best we can - that is our job. Intentionally missing a base is legal as long as you are not caught by the defense! By the way, the comment from the umpire "I have peripheral vision you know." was not necessary. Actually, no comment to the coach was needed as he knew that he got caught.

Ozzy I agree completely. I work with the same partner frequently and I even mentioned that to him while talking post game.

[mn_ump]

I was told of a similar circumstance earlier this summer, but at first base instead of third.

A local umpire association who has a poor reputation put an absolute rookie (first game ever) on a VFW game (16 yo) in the middle of the season. In the first inning, R2, he missed an obstruction call at first because he was watching the ball in RF. Coach realized he was a rookie, and every time they had R2 and a base hit, the BR cut first base short by about 10 feet, making a relatively easy double.

PU was watching the touch at 3B, so wasn't watching the action at 1B and the rookie was watching the outfielders.

The coach was proud of himself when he told me about it. I let him know that I was disappointed in him and that I would spread the word about his actions.

[Matt13]

I was told of a similar circumstance earlier this summer, but at first base instead of third.

A local umpire association who has a poor reputation put an absolute rookie (first game ever) on a VFW game (16 yo) in the middle of the season. In the first inning, R2, he missed an obstruction call at first because he was watching the ball in RF. Coach realized he was a rookie, and every time they had R2 and a base hit, the BR cut first base short by about 10 feet, making a relatively easy double.

PU was watching the touch at 3B, so wasn't watching the action at 1B and the rookie was watching the outfielders.

The coach was proud of himself when he told me about it. I let him know that I was disappointed in him and that I would spread the word about his actions.

Got a PM for you.