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Ty
07-10-2008, 04:31 PM
AmLg, OBR, RHP, leaning in taking signs. R1. Pitcher simply lifted his pivot foot up (kinda like a dog taking a leak), and spins on the heel of his free foot and throws to first. There was not a discernible step back with the pivot foot. Balk? No Balk? WTH was that? I did not call anything, caught me off guard. thanks ty

bobjenkins
07-10-2008, 04:37 PM
AmLg, OBR, RHP, leaning in taking signs. R1. Pitcher simply lifted his pivot foot up (kinda like a dog taking a leak), and spins on the heel of his free foot and throws to first. There was not a discernible step back with the pivot foot. Balk? No Balk? WTH was that? I did not call anything, caught me off guard. thanks ty

Balk. Right out of the book.

Dano
07-10-2008, 04:44 PM
AmLg, OBR, RHP, leaning in taking signs. R1. Pitcher simply lifted his pivot foot up (kinda like a dog taking a leak), and spins on the heel of his free foot and throws to first. There was not a discernible step back with the pivot foot. Balk? No Balk? WTH was that? I did not call anything, caught me off guard. thanks ty


Hmmm...

So his pivot foot was still in the air when he threw it?

Richard_Siegel
07-10-2008, 04:48 PM
AmLg, OBR, RHP, leaning in taking signs. R1. Pitcher simply lifted his pivot foot up (kinda like a dog taking a leak), and spins on the heel of his free foot and throws to first. There was not a discernible step back with the pivot foot. Balk? No Balk? WTH was that? I did not call anything, caught me off guard. thanks ty

This is a balk for several reason. I will leave it to the other posters to tell you why.

You were caught off guard because the move was so unusual you have to process it it for a moment. When you finally decided it was a balk you felt that too much time had passed (even if it was 3 or 4 seconds) to call the balk. You felt it would have looked odd for you to call a balk in such a delayed fashision. Some coaches would come out and argue a call that was so delayed. So rather than look odd you let it go.

I have been there.

This goes for balks, interferences, obstruction, etc.... My suggestion to anyone who finds yourself in such a "freeze" only to realize that the call should have been made is to MAKE THE CALL anyway. It will look odd, yes that is true. And some coaches will harp on it. But it is much worse to let a violation go by unpenalized, then to call it a little late.

"Hey coach, I know I waited a few extra seconds to make the call. I had to think about it for a second to be sure. But it is the RIGHT call. It was a balk. Just because I didn't call it immediately does not mean we have to ignore it."

Once you get over the "freeze" on a situation you see for the first time, you will be able to call it in a more timely way the next time you see it. I know this works. I have "frozen" too. But I forced myself to make the call anyway, even thought it was a late call. It caused a little heat a few times but it made me better at recognizing the violation and calling it quicker the next time.

Ty
07-10-2008, 04:50 PM
Thanks. My poor rationale of why i spaced this one out.
Last night's double header was a loonnngggg sumbit**. first game got started 45 minutes late. Team traveling from 3 hours away. Then the home team manager decides that yes we are going to play another full 7 inning game, (game 2) The visitors had to return home (another 3 hour drive), so they were pretty tired by inning 5 of game 2. I'd had spent 6 hours on my roof shingling, prior to my 90 minute drive over to the games, so i was whipped, plus i ended up with both plates (partner bailed on me), so at the end of 7 innings in game 2, score is tied, it is 10:45 pm, and I called it finished. Game ends in a tie. Got home at 12:30, got up this am at 5:30 to finish the roof. It is now nap time. : ) ty

Ozzy
07-10-2008, 04:52 PM
AmLg, OBR, RHP, leaning in taking signs. R1. Pitcher simply lifted his pivot foot up (kinda like a dog taking a leak), and spins on the heel of his free foot and throws to first. There was not a discernible step back with the pivot foot. Balk? No Balk? WTH was that? I did not call anything, caught me off guard. thanks ty
In order to properly step off the rubber, the pivot foot must come to rest behind the rubber - that means some part of his foot has to be on the ground. If F1 is throwing from the rubber, the pivot foot must remain in contact with the rubber except for the last part of the 3rd to 1st move and the jump turn. In both cases, contact with the rubber is broken (permanent in the 3rd to 1st move and momentarily with the jump spin).

Richard_Siegel
07-10-2008, 04:57 PM
Thanks. My poor rationale of why i spaced this one out.
Last night's double header was a loonnngggg sumbit**. first game got started 45 minutes late. Team traveling from 3 hours away. Then the home team manager decides that yes we are going to play another full 7 inning game, (game 2) The visitors had to return home (another 3 hour drive), so they were pretty tired by inning 5 of game 2. I'd had spent 6 hours on my roof shingling, prior to my 90 minute drive over to the games, so i was whipped, plus i ended up with both plates (partner bailed on me), so at the end of 7 innings in game 2, score is tied, it is 10:45 pm, and I called it finished. Game ends in a tie. Got home at 12:30, got up this am at 5:30 to finish the roof. It is now nap time. : ) ty

A perfect storm...

Fritz
07-10-2008, 09:46 PM
In order to properly step off the rubber, the pivot foot must come to rest behind the rubber - that means some part of his foot has to be on the ground. If F1 is throwing from the rubber, the pivot foot must remain in contact with the rubber except for the last part of the 3rd to 1st move and the jump turn. In both cases, contact with the rubber is broken (permanent in the 3rd to 1st move and momentarily with the jump spin).

Oz - interesting that you make the comment about coming to rest behind the rubber because I had a sitch in a 12U game last week that my partner and I may have kicked based upon that rule.

RHP, R3 & R1; I am BU and we have 12U playing on a high school field with shortened bases and pitching rubber - such that when I am in B, the rubber is so far in front of the HS mound, I can't see the rubber unless I am almost to the cutout or else practically standing next to the mound. In any case, the pitcher comes set, looks at R3 then apparently steps backwards with his pivot foot (toward 1st) to disengage the rubber, turns and fakes a throw over there. OC wanted a balk because the pitcher didn't step behind the rubber when disengaging.

I conferred with PU since I couldn't tell exactly what he did with his foot other than to see him pick it up and then pivot back. PU described the backwards (toward 1B) move but then said it was legal because when a 3rd to 1st move and fake is made, the pitcher doesn't step behind the rubber on that either. I bought it and so we ruled no balk.

Did we get it right or not? Would it make a difference if he had gone ahead and thrown to 1B?

Dano
07-10-2008, 10:23 PM
In order to properly step off the rubber, the pivot foot must come to rest behind the rubber - that means some part of his foot has to be on the ground. If F1 is throwing from the rubber, the pivot foot must remain in contact with the rubber except for the last part of the 3rd to 1st move and the jump turn. In both cases, contact with the rubber is broken (permanent in the 3rd to 1st move and momentarily with the jump spin).

Oz - interesting that you make the comment about coming to rest behind the rubber because I had a sitch in a 12U game last week that my partner and I may have kicked based upon that rule.

RHP, R3 & R1; I am BU and we have 12U playing on a high school field with shortened bases and pitching rubber - such that when I am in B, the rubber is so far in front of the HS mound, I can't see the rubber unless I am almost to the cutout or else practically standing next to the mound. In any case, the pitcher comes set, looks at R3 then apparently steps backwards with his pivot foot (toward 1st) to disengage the rubber, turns and fakes a throw over there. OC wanted a balk because the pitcher didn't step behind the rubber when disengaging.

I conferred with PU since I couldn't tell exactly what he did with his foot other than to see him pick it up and then pivot back. PU described the backwards (toward 1B) move but then said it was legal because when a 3rd to 1st move and fake is made, the pitcher doesn't step behind the rubber on that either. I bought it and so we ruled no balk.

Did we get it right or not? Would it make a difference if he had gone ahead and thrown to 1B?

The pitcher can FAKE to any base but first from the rubber.

Dano
07-10-2008, 10:23 PM
In order to properly step off the rubber, the pivot foot must come to rest behind the rubber - that means some part of his foot has to be on the ground. If F1 is throwing from the rubber, the pivot foot must remain in contact with the rubber except for the last part of the 3rd to 1st move and the jump turn. In both cases, contact with the rubber is broken (permanent in the 3rd to 1st move and momentarily with the jump spin).

Oz - interesting that you make the comment about coming to rest behind the rubber because I had a sitch in a 12U game last week that my partner and I may have kicked based upon that rule.

RHP, R3 & R1; I am BU and we have 12U playing on a high school field with shortened bases and pitching rubber - such that when I am in B, the rubber is so far in front of the HS mound, I can't see the rubber unless I am almost to the cutout or else practically standing next to the mound. In any case, the pitcher comes set, looks at R3 then apparently steps backwards with his pivot foot (toward 1st) to disengage the rubber, turns and fakes a throw over there. OC wanted a balk because the pitcher didn't step behind the rubber when disengaging.

I conferred with PU since I couldn't tell exactly what he did with his foot other than to see him pick it up and then pivot back. PU described the backwards (toward 1B) move but then said it was legal because when a 3rd to 1st move and fake is made, the pitcher doesn't step behind the rubber on that either. I bought it and so we ruled no balk.

Did we get it right or not? Would it make a difference if he had gone ahead and thrown to 1B?

The pitcher can FAKE to any base but first from the rubber.

bobjenkins
07-11-2008, 01:42 PM
I conferred with PU since I couldn't tell exactly what he did with his foot other than to see him pick it up and then pivot back. PU described the backwards (toward 1B) move but then said it was legal because when a 3rd to 1st move and fake is made, the pitcher doesn't step behind the rubber on that either. I bought it and so we ruled no balk.

Did we get it right or not? Would it make a difference if he had gone ahead and thrown to 1B?

PU was wrong. The pivot foot moving toward first is not a legal disengagmenet.

Ozzy
07-11-2008, 01:43 PM
In order to properly step off the rubber, the pivot foot must come to rest behind the rubber - that means some part of his foot has to be on the ground. If F1 is throwing from the rubber, the pivot foot must remain in contact with the rubber except for the last part of the 3rd to 1st move and the jump turn. In both cases, contact with the rubber is broken (permanent in the 3rd to 1st move and momentarily with the jump spin).

Oz - interesting that you make the comment about coming to rest behind the rubber because I had a sitch in a 12U game last week that my partner and I may have kicked based upon that rule.

RHP, R3 & R1; I am BU and we have 12U playing on a high school field with shortened bases and pitching rubber - such that when I am in B, the rubber is so far in front of the HS mound, I can't see the rubber unless I am almost to the cutout or else practically standing next to the mound. In any case, the pitcher comes set, looks at R3 then apparently steps backwards with his pivot foot (toward 1st) to disengage the rubber, turns and fakes a throw over there. OC wanted a balk because the pitcher didn't step behind the rubber when disengaging.

I conferred with PU since I couldn't tell exactly what he did with his foot other than to see him pick it up and then pivot back. PU described the backwards (toward 1B) move but then said it was legal because when a 3rd to 1st move and fake is made, the pitcher doesn't step behind the rubber on that either. I bought it and so we ruled no balk.

Did we get it right or not? Would it make a difference if he had gone ahead and thrown to 1B?
The explanation using the 3rd to 1st move is a moot point as this is the only move where F1 essentially is stepping of the front of the rubber to disengage. The rules are specific in that they use the words "backwards" and "back" when referring to stepping off the rubber to become an infielder. In your case, if you cannot see the rubber properly (?) you have to deal with the field's situation as best you can. Also, as stated by others, F1 cannot fake to 1st base from the rubber! So somehow, you are going to have to get a good look at F1's pivot foot on this move.

bigblu2u2
07-11-2008, 01:55 PM
Bid F1 gain ground on his move to 1st?

bigblu2u2
07-11-2008, 01:57 PM
Sorry. DID F1 gain ground on his move to 1st? If yes, was the pivot heel lifting and the spin simultaneous?

Fritz
07-11-2008, 02:08 PM
Sorry. DID F1 gain ground on his move to 1st? If yes, was the pivot heel lifting and the spin simultaneous?

The way the PU explained it to me is the RHP lifted his pivot foot, breaking contact with the rubber, stepped backward (toward first) about a 12 inches or so, completely clearing any part of the rubber, then whirled and faked a throw to first.

Ozzy
07-11-2008, 02:23 PM
Sorry. DID F1 gain ground on his move to 1st? If yes, was the pivot heel lifting and the spin simultaneous?

The way the PU explained it to me is the RHP lifted his pivot foot, breaking contact with the rubber, stepped backward (toward first) about a 12 inches or so, completely clearing any part of the rubber, then whirled and faked a throw to first.
Wait a minute! Am I reading this right?????? You are in "B", RHP in the set (because it is improbable a RHP in the wind-up can put the pivot foot toward 1st) and he steps backward toward 1st base? That means he never stepped off legally!

bigblu2u2
07-11-2008, 02:49 PM
His 1st step was with the pivot foot, back, clearing the rubber, but toward 1st base. His next move was a feint to 1st. If his 1st move was a lateral move with his pivot foot, then this would be a balk. If, however, he was stepping back and clearing the rubber, I don't think I have a balk. I would have to see the move.

Ty
07-11-2008, 03:23 PM
Definitely have to see this one to determine balk or not. But from the description, i have nothing. The only requirement for legal disengagement is the pitcher stepping off with his pivot foot, behind the rubber. It doesn't really specify that this step must be a "sidestep" if you will. (toe and heel of the pivot foot staying inline with the toe/heel of the free foot) Whereas here, after the disengagement, we have the toe of the pivot foot inline with the heel of the free foot. Now if the pitcher were to take a step back and long toward first i would probably call a balk.
You know there are a great many things we let "slide" as far as pitching regulations/mechanics and the rule book. How many of us stay strict on the "entire pivot foot in contact with the rubber" or from WU, "1 step backward and 1 step forward" When i see kids taking 1 step sideways (ala LL) or even a short step forward, turn into the rubber and then extending the free foot toward the plate (that's 2 steps forward folks)
Hope this made sense. ty

Scuzzyfeller
07-11-2008, 03:41 PM
His 1st step was with the pivot foot, back, clearing the rubber, but toward 1st base. His next move was a feint to 1st. If his 1st move was a lateral move with his pivot foot, then this would be a balk.

I was asked about THIS exact thing just yesterday in an email from a coach....and with BU in B...that's EXACTLY what he told me....pivot foot, disengaged toward first...then the spin move to first...a FAKE or FEINT...and the umpire BALKED it!

Right call!

If, however, he was stepping back and clearing the rubber, I don't think I have a balk. I would have to see the move.

Pivot foot steps OFF and touches dirt BEHIND the rubber...everything is legal from there!

Scuzz

Fritz
07-11-2008, 11:27 PM
His 1st step was with the pivot foot, back, clearing the rubber, but toward 1st base. His next move was a feint to 1st. If his 1st move was a lateral move with his pivot foot, then this would be a balk. If, however, he was stepping back and clearing the rubber, I don't think I have a balk. I would have to see the move.

It may be one of those you have to see to understand, but no, his pivot never went BEHIND (toward 2nd) the rubber. He was facing 3B, picked up his right foot, stepped backwards toward 1B and planted the foot outside of the rubber (so no longer in contact and again, towards 1B), then picked up his left foot and wheeled toward first to fake the throw. He never went behind the rubber, which is why the first instinct was "that's a balk!" But when the DC argued that it wasn't any different than a regular 3rd to 1st move - in which the right foot never goes behind the rubber either - we bought off on it.

Hence my post; if it is allowed in a 3rd to 1st move (fake or actual throw), why wouldn't it be allowed in a straight move to 1st (fake or actual throw) if he disengages the rubber in the same manner - a lateral move instead of back towards 2B?

Brotherhood_of_Blue
07-12-2008, 05:26 AM
Just change your perspective for a minute. The rule is very specific about stepping off the back of the rubber in order to properly disengage. It's not his backthat matters but the proper direction of the rubber itself. When he's set up he's in the front of the rubber.
1st base is the ONLY base that can't have a feinted throw to if it's being done while in contact with the rubber. The Third to First move is a legal disengagement from the rubber, when he stepped toward an occupied 3rd base, and then feinted a throw to first, but he was already disengaged from the rubber so there is nothing to go there. The only thing that lies behind him, is the Balk that should be called.

Fritz
07-12-2008, 12:48 PM
Just change your perspective for a minute. The rule is very specific about stepping off the back of the rubber in order to properly disengage. It's not his backthat matters but the proper direction of the rubber itself. When he's set up he's in the front of the rubber.
1st base is the ONLY base that can't have a feinted throw to if it's being done while in contact with the rubber. The Third to First move is a legal disengagement from the rubber, when he stepped toward an occupied 3rd base, and then feinted a throw to first, but he was already disengaged from the rubber so there is nothing to go there. The only thing that lies behind him, is the Balk that should be called.

I agree on what the rule says, but at no time during a 3rd to 1st double move does the pitcher disengage the rubber by stepping BEHIND it, right? RHP typically steps toward 3rd with his free/left foot, pulling his pivot/right foot off the rubber toward 3rd, then wheels and fakes or throws to 1st. At what point during that move does his right foot go BEHIND the rubber? Yet that is considered a legal move.

bobjenkins
07-13-2008, 04:04 AM
Just change your perspective for a minute. The rule is very specific about stepping off the back of the rubber in order to properly disengage. It's not his backthat matters but the proper direction of the rubber itself. When he's set up he's in the front of the rubber.
1st base is the ONLY base that can't have a feinted throw to if it's being done while in contact with the rubber. The Third to First move is a legal disengagement from the rubber, when he stepped toward an occupied 3rd base, and then feinted a throw to first, but he was already disengaged from the rubber so there is nothing to go there. The only thing that lies behind him, is the Balk that should be called.

I agree on what the rule says, but at no time during a 3rd to 1st double move does the pitcher disengage the rubber by stepping BEHIND it, right? RHP typically steps toward 3rd with his free/left foot, pulling his pivot/right foot off the rubber toward 3rd, then wheels and fakes or throws to 1st. At what point during that move does his right foot go BEHIND the rubber? Yet that is considered a legal move.

Of course it is. Because a feint to a base is allowed and then "everything starts over." For "everything to start over", F1 must be off the rubber. That's why uit's a balk (underOBR) if F1 *DOESN"T* disengage on the 3-1 move.

A better (perhaps) wording of the rule would be"A pitcher can: (1) pitch; (2) throw to a base;(3) disengage by stepping backwards; (4) break contact by feiting toward second or third."

Fritz
07-13-2008, 12:47 PM
A better (perhaps) wording of the rule would be"A pitcher can: (1) pitch; (2) throw to a base;(3) disengage by stepping backwards; (4) break contact by feiting toward second or third."

Ah yes, and there's the rub. Where in the rule book does it say that you don't have to disengage by stepping backwards if you fake or throw to 2nd or 3rd - but you DO have to step backwards to legally fake to 1st? All I see is "a pitcher must disengage by stepping backwards off the rubber." I like your rule Bob!