Pop up slide

[Viv]

NCAA rules.

Last night a coach asked me if a runner can pop up after sliding into a base. I told him it depends.

He told me a runner was called out the night before after popping up into 2d. This was a tailor made 6-4-3 - the fielder had cleared the bag and fired to 1st long before the pop up occurred. In other words - the pop up happened behind the throw. No contact, no interference. The runner was called out for a pop up slide.

Does this make sense to anyone?

From his description, I would not have called the runner out. What would you do?

[BigUmp56]

A pop up slide is only illegal and then ruled interference if it alters the course of the play. I sure don't see that here.


Tim.

[HoosierBlue]

Viv ... you stated NCAA rules.
What type of game was this ... summer collegiate ball?

[dash_riprock]

A pop up slide is only illegal and then ruled interference if it alters the course of the play. I sure don't see that here.


Tim.
Under NCAA rules, a legal pop up slide that alters the course of play is not interference.

[cbfoulds]

NCAA rules.

Last night a coach asked me if a runner can pop up after sliding into a base. I told him it depends.

He told me a runner was called out the night before after popping up into 2d. This was a tailor made 6-4-3 - the fielder had cleared the bag and fired to 1st long before the pop up occurred. In other words - the pop up happened behind the throw. No contact, no interference. The runner was called out for a pop up slide.

Does this make sense to anyone?

From his description, I would not have called the runner out. What would you do?
From YOUR description, I cannot tell who was called out for the "illegal" slide: BR or R1?
Your description: the fielder had cleared the bag and fired to 1st sounds like the fielder already recorded an out on R1; on the other hand: The runner was called out for a pop up slide - which sounds like R1 is getting sanctioned.

Also: not clear in your OP, but did the throw retire BR?

SOOoo...

* I WOULD NOT have sanctioned R1 if his action did not have an effect on the play, and I COULD NOT sanction him if he was already out.
* I WOULD NOT [based upon what you have described] call BR out as a result of a FPSR/ "pop-up" slide by R1 that had no effect on the play.

[BigUmp56]

A pop up slide is only illegal and then ruled interference if it alters the course of the play. I sure don't see that here.


Tim.
Under NCAA rules, a legal pop up slide that alters the course of play is not interference.

I'm not sure what you're saying, Dash. There is no such animal as a legal pop up slide that alters the course of the play.

From NCAA:

c. Actions by a runner are illegal and interference shall be called if:

(2) The runner uses a rolling, cross-body or pop-up slide and either
makes contact with or alters the play of a fielder;


Tim.

[Viv]

Viv ... you stated NCAA rules.
What type of game was this ... summer collegiate ball?

The call did not happen in my game. I didn't ask, but I think it happened in the Central Illinois Collegiate league.

[Viv]

From YOUR description, I cannot tell who was called out for the "illegal" slide: BR or R1?
Your description: the fielder had cleared the bag and fired to 1st sounds like the fielder already recorded an out on R1; on the other hand: The runner was called out for a pop up slide - which sounds like R1 is getting sanctioned.

Also: not clear in your OP, but did the throw retire BR?

SOOoo...

* I WOULD NOT have sanctioned R1 if his action did not have an effect on the play, and I COULD NOT sanction him if he was already out.
* I WOULD NOT [based upon what you have described] call BR out as a result of a FPSR/ "pop-up" slide by R1 that had no effect on the play.

You are right. Good answers too.

Let me clarify what I think happened (again - I was not there) is that the umpire called R1 out for the pop up slide into 2d base - not for the fielder making a play! Who knows...maybe the fielder couldn't get into the neighborhood! As for the BR...while a part of the play...is not part of the question. But in answer to your question - I have no idea what happened to the BR.

The coach asked me if a runner can pop up after sliding into a base. I told him it depends...yes...so long as he is going direct into the base and he does not interfere with the fielder. Then I asked why. He said "last nights umpire called my guy out for popping up into 2d."

"did he make contact with the fielder?" I asked

"No. He said he called him out because pop-up slides are illegal"

"Something does not sound right" I replied, "I'd really need to see what happened and talk to the umpire to understand the situation, really."

Soooo - I am just trying to verify what I already know - pop up slides are legal under NCAA rules. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. Perhaps I just should have simply asked the following:

Are pop up slides legal under NCAA rules?

[BigUmp56]

Are pop up slides legal under NCAA rules?

Again, yes they are as long as the play is not altered.


Tim.

[mazzamouth]

From NCAA:

c. Actions by a runner are illegal and interference shall be called if:

(2) The runner uses a rolling, cross-body or pop-up slide and either
makes contact with or alters the play of a fielder;
Tim.[/quote]


here is the NCAA Force play slide rule..

Rule 8 Sec4
b.Contact with a fielder is legal and interference shall not be called if the runner makes a legal slide directly to the base and in the baseline extended..A.R. If contact occurs on top of the bag as a result of the "pop-up" Slide, this contact is legal.

[dash_riprock]

A pop up slide is only illegal and then ruled interference if it alters the course of the play. I sure don't see that here.


Tim.
Under NCAA rules, a legal pop up slide that alters the course of play is not interference.

I'm not sure what you're saying, Dash. There is no such animal as a legal pop up slide that alters the course of the play.

From NCAA:

c. Actions by a runner are illegal and interference shall be called if:

(2) The runner uses a rolling, cross-body or pop-up slide and either
makes contact with or alters the play of a fielder;


Tim.
Tim, you have an old rulebook. A pop-up slide is no longer an illegal action.

[DaveReed]

NCAA Baseball Rules are available for download in PDF format at:
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/ncaa?ContentID=364

Or, if the link doesn't work, go to NCAA.org, select spring sports/baseball

[Viv]

NCAA Baseball Rules are available for download in PDF format at:
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/ncaa?ContentID=364

Or, if the link doesn't work, go to NCAA.org, select spring sports/baseball

Thanks Dave. I appreciate the link. I have the paperback...nothing in it to make a pop-up illegal, just like these responses!

Thanks all-

[dash_riprock]

Are pop up slides legal under NCAA rules?

Again, yes they are as long as the play is not altered.


Tim.
Altering the play (or contact) is not interference as long as the pop-up slide is executed legally. 8.4.b. A.R.

[mazzamouth]

Are pop up slides legal under NCAA rules?

Again, yes they are as long as the play is not altered.


Tim.
Altering the play (or contact) is not interference as long as the pop-up slide is executed legally. 8.4.b. A.R.

dip I think you might have read that wrong... a runner can use a pop slide but if he alters the play he should be called out.

c. Actions by a runner are illegal and interference shall be called if:

(2) The runner uses a rolling, cross-body or pop-up slide and either
makes contact with or alters the play of a fielder;

[HoosierBlue]

I'm going with Tim's interp for $40, Alex ...

The way I read it ... mere contact on a pop-up slide is not going to get you an "illegal slide" call. Contact that alters the play should.

[dash_riprock]

Are pop up slides legal under NCAA rules?

Again, yes they are as long as the play is not altered.


Tim.
Altering the play (or contact) is not interference as long as the pop-up slide is executed legally. 8.4.b. A.R.

dip I think you might have read that wrong... a runner can use a pop slide but if he alters the play he should be called out.

c. Actions by a runner are illegal and interference shall be called if:

(2) The runner uses a rolling, cross-body or pop-up slide and either
makes contact with or alters the play of a fielder;


Another outdated rulebook.

[mazzamouth]

Are pop up slides legal under NCAA rules?

Again, yes they are as long as the play is not altered.


Tim.
Altering the play (or contact) is not interference as long as the pop-up slide is executed legally. 8.4.b. A.R.

dip I think you might have read that wrong... a runner can use a pop slide but if he alters the play he should be called out.

c. Actions by a runner are illegal and interference shall be called if:

(2) The runner uses a rolling, cross-body or pop-up slide and either
makes contact with or alters the play of a fielder;


Another outdated rulebook.

I just got this from the 2008 NCAA Rule book... its online...

http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/2008/2008_baseball_rules.pdf

there is the copy of the rule book...

[mazzamouth]

I'm going with Tim's interp for $40, Alex ...

The way I read it ... mere contact on a pop-up slide is not going to get you an "illegal slide" call. Contact that alters the play should.\\Of course this will all come down to 1 mere thing,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,



UMPIRE JUDGEMENT.....LOL

[BigUmp56]

Under NCAA rules, a legal pop up slide that alters the course of play is not interference.

Dash,

This is simply not true. First, as I said before, there is no such thing as a legal pop up slide that alters the course of the play. What the new AR is attempting to clarify is that a pop up slide directly on top of the bag where contact occurs is not in and of itself to be ruled as interference. However, if that contact alters the course of the play, it is to be ruled as an illegal act and ruled as interference.


Tim.

[dash_riprock]

Under NCAA rules, a legal pop up slide that alters the course of play is not interference.

Dash,

This is simply not true. First, as I said before, there is no such thing as a legal pop up slide that alters the course of the play. What the new AR is attempting to clarify is that a pop up slide directly on top of the bag where contact occurs is not in and of itself to be ruled as interference. However, if that contact alters the course of the play, it is to be ruled as an illegal act and ruled as interference.

Tim, legal slides do not result in interference whether or not they alter the course of play or involve contact. An illegal slide (rolling, cross-body but NOT pop-up) is interference ONLY if it alters the course of play or involves contact.

Think of it this way. R1 slides legally and takes out the legs of F4 who is standing on the base, causing F4 to drop the ball. Did the slide alter the course of play? It sure did, and it involved contact as well. However, it is NOT interference because the slide was legal. A pop-up slide is now in this category. If altering the course of play was the only criterion used to define interference, there would be no need to define a legal slide. It wouldn't matter if the slide was legal or illegal, because the interference would be defined by something else (altering the play/contact).

The NCAA changed the status of a pop-up slide from illegal (where it would be INT if and only if it altered the course of play or involved contact), to legal, where altering the play or contact can legally result from the slide.

[dash_riprock]

Are pop up slides legal under NCAA rules?

Again, yes they are as long as the play is not altered.


Tim.
Altering the play (or contact) is not interference as long as the pop-up slide is executed legally. 8.4.b. A.R.

dip I think you might have read that wrong... a runner can use a pop slide but if he alters the play he should be called out.

c. Actions by a runner are illegal and interference shall be called if:

(2) The runner uses a rolling, cross-body or pop-up slide and either
makes contact with or alters the play of a fielder;


Another outdated rulebook.

I just got this from the 2008 NCAA Rule book... its online...

http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/2008/2008_baseball_rules.pdf

there is the copy of the rule book...
Check again (your link is good). "Pop-up" has been removed from 8.4.c.(2).

[bobjenkins]

In general, I agree with Dash on this. The rule was changed a couple of years ago (for the 2007 year, iirc). It's entirely possible that not all the references got correctly changed. (I don't have the books handy, so I can't check all the references given here.)

[mazzamouth]

Dash you are correct, the rule did change and the pop was removed... after last night I burried my nose in th book... pg. 92 Rule 8 sec 4 b a.r. If contact occurs on topof the bag as a result of a "pop up" Slide, this contact is legal.

So I posted a link to the new rule book, but read the post of the old rule....LOL

[Viv]

So, in simple terms, pop-up slides are LEGAL. Interference...on the other hand....is not. The two are exclusive.

Do not call a runner out for a pop-up slide interference. Call him out for interference that alters the course of a play.

This sort of explanation leaves the type of slide out of it - when someone asks if a pop-up slide is illegal the answer is a simply just 'no'.

"I thought it was?"

"No."

"Are you sure?"

"Yes."

"Really?"

"Play ball!"

[bobjenkins]

So, in simple terms, pop-up slides are LEGAL. Interference...on the other hand....is not. The two are exclusive.

Do not call a runner out for a pop-up slide interference. Call him out for interference that alters the course of a play.


I'm not sure I understand you distinction. A pop-up slide (on the base), even one that alters the course of play, is not interference (absent any other action).

[Viv]

So, in simple terms, pop-up slides are LEGAL. Interference...on the other hand....is not. The two are exclusive.

Do not call a runner out for a pop-up slide interference. Call him out for interference that alters the course of a play.


I'm not sure I understand you distinction. A pop-up slide (on the base), even one that alters the course of play, is not interference (absent any other action).

That is exactly what I am trying to say. The pop up slide is not interference. Still, a runner who deliberately pop-up in the pivot mans face (judgment here) could be...if the umpire judges the intent to be interference. It is based on the actions of the runner - not the slide. Make sense? Clear as mud?

[dash_riprock]

First, I think it's fair to say that all pop-up slides are deliberate. Executing a pop-up slide on top of the base and into a fielder is intentional altering of the play, and perfectly legal (except in FED). Sliding legally into a fielder is the same thing. Of course the runner is attempting to alter the play - he's trying to take the fielder's legs out. But if the slide is legal, altering the play and/or contact is also legal.

Altering the play is INT only if it results from an illegal slide or some other form of interference, like grabbing the fielder.

[Viv]

First, I think it's fair to say that all pop-up slides are deliberate. Executing a pop-up slide on top of the base and into a fielder is intentional altering of the play, and perfectly legal (except in FED). Sliding legally into a fielder is the same thing. Of course the runner is attempting to alter the play - he's trying to take the fielder's legs out. But if the slide is legal, altering the play and/or contact is also legal.

Altering the play is INT only if it results from an illegal slide or some other form of interference, like grabbing the fielder.


Right. "based on the actions of the runner" it could be interference. Merely popping up into the face of the fielder does not make it so.

[bobjenkins]

Still, a runner who deliberately pop-up in the pivot mans face (judgment here) could be...if the umpire judges the intent to be interference.

Disagree. This is NOT interference (in NCAA) no matter what the intent is.

[PeteBooth]

[quote="dash_riprock"]First, I think it's fair to say that all pop-up slides are deliberate.

Not totally true.

Example:

Ground ball to F6 who trys to complete the old fashion 6-4-3 DP. however, F6's throw sails into RF. If the runner executes a pop-up slide he can proceed directly to third base without losing "much momentum" vs. a head first slide in which the runners momentum virtually comes to a halt and he cannot advance to the next base.

The pop-up slide allows a runner to quickly advance to the next base without losing too much momentum should the ball be thrown away.

Therefore, to say that all pop-up slides are deliberate is not entirely true.

Pete Booth

[Dano]

[quote=dash_riprock]First, I think it's fair to say that all pop-up slides are deliberate.

Not totally true.

Example:

Ground ball to F6 who trys to complete the old fashion 6-4-3 DP. however, F6's throw sails into RF. If the runner executes a pop-up slide he can proceed directly to third base without losing "much momentum" vs. a head first slide in which the runners momentum virtually comes to a halt and he cannot advance to the next base.

The pop-up slide allows a runner to quickly advance to the next base without losing too much momentum should the ball be thrown away.

Therefore, to say that all pop-up slides are deliberate is not entirely true.

Pete Booth


Ummmmmmmmmmmm.... your scenario proves that it is DELIBERATE.

[Viv]

Still, a runner who deliberately pop-up in the pivot mans face (judgment here) could be...if the umpire judges the intent to be interference.

Disagree. This is NOT interference (in NCAA) no matter what the intent is.

Did you read my last post? Perhaps your disagreement crossed with it...it is not the slide...nor the intent I am ruling interference. It is the "actions of the fielder", i.e. tomahawking the fielders throwing arm as he is attempting to throw, that is ruled interference. The slide has nothing to do with it. How can I be any clearer with this?

[bigblu2u2]

You had an umpire who enforced the fed rule. In fed, pop ups are not legal.