Fielder in fair territory?

[lefteh]

Playing under OBR rules, it is quite clear that at the time of the pitch a fielder must be in fair territory:
4.03: When the ball is put in play at the start of, or during a game, all fielders other than
the catcher shall be on fair territory.

During my last game, this question arose: is one foot in fair territory sufficient to deem a player to be in a legal position when the ball is put into play?

The obvious example for this would be F3 holding R1 on while straddling the bag.

[BrianC14]

Playing under OBR rules, it is quite clear that at the time of the pitch a fielder must be in fair territory:
4.03: When the ball is put in play at the start of, or during a game, all fielders other than
the catcher shall be on fair territory.

During my last game, this question arose: is one foot in fair territory sufficient to deem a player to be in a legal position when the ball is put into play?

The obvious example for this would be F3 holding R1 on while straddling the bag.

One foot in fair territory is a legal position.

[lefteh]

Playing under OBR rules, it is quite clear that at the time of the pitch a fielder must be in fair territory:
4.03: When the ball is put in play at the start of, or during a game, all fielders other than
the catcher shall be on fair territory.

During my last game, this question arose: is one foot in fair territory sufficient to deem a player to be in a legal position when the ball is put into play?

The obvious example for this would be F3 holding R1 on while straddling the bag.

One foot in fair territory is a legal position.


As was my ruling. However, the first base coach was damn sure he was correct in demanding the fielder have both feet in fair territory. Perhaps the rule is different under NFHS?

[BrianC14]

Playing under OBR rules, it is quite clear that at the time of the pitch a fielder must be in fair territory:
4.03: When the ball is put in play at the start of, or during a game, all fielders other than
the catcher shall be on fair territory.

During my last game, this question arose: is one foot in fair territory sufficient to deem a player to be in a legal position when the ball is put into play?

The obvious example for this would be F3 holding R1 on while straddling the bag.

One foot in fair territory is a legal position.


As was my ruling. However, the first base coach was damn sure he was correct in demanding the fielder have both feet in fair territory. Perhaps the rule is different under NFHS?

FED Rule 1-1-4: (page 10 in the 2008 rule book)

A fielder is in fair ground when at least one foot is touching fair ground. Penalty: Illegal Pitch (2-18-1).

Note that it doesn't say "one foot completely within fair ground" and it certainly doesn't say that both feet are totally within fair ground.
If the first baseman's toes (of just one foot) are touching the fair/foul line, then it is a legal position for him to take.

You: 1.
Coach: 0.

[lefteh]

Don't know why I didn't see that.
Thanks a bunch.

[BrianC14]

By the way, as this was a 1B coach making an argument, I would caution you about letting them do that.

In the FED world, assistant coaches are non entities - placed strategically to point R1's and B/R's to second base.

[Wharf_Rat]

Under OBR, both feet must be in fair territory. The reason I say this is because at Harry's, a certain MLB instructor stopped a game in which he was the runner (and I was the first base umpire in which 3 man mechanics were being used) and the 1st baseman had one foot completly in and the other 1/2 in 1/2 out. That stayed with even after 12 years!

[lefteh]

Some further digging and Googling told me this:

1. As Brian stated, one toe in fair is enough for NFHS rules.
2. In OBR, both feet must be in fair territory, however this should not be enforced unless a complaint is made by the offensive team. Subsequently, it should be strictly enforced on both teams.

[BrianC14]

Under OBR, both feet must be in fair territory. The reason I say this is because at Harry's, a certain MLB instructor stopped a game in which he was the runner (and I was the first base umpire in which 3 man mechanics were being used) and the 1st baseman had one foot completly in and the other 1/2 in 1/2 out. That stayed with even after 12 years!

Where is it defined for "both feet" in fair territory?

Rule 4.03 doesn't define it for fielders... (except for F2)... is it somewhere else?

[Rich_Ives]

Under OBR, both feet must be in fair territory. The reason I say this is because at Harry's, a certain MLB instructor stopped a game in which he was the runner (and I was the first base umpire in which 3 man mechanics were being used) and the 1st baseman had one foot completly in and the other 1/2 in 1/2 out. That stayed with even after 12 years!

Where is it defined for "both feet" in fair territory?

Rule 4.03 doesn't define it for fielders... (except for F2)... is it somewhere else?


4.03 requires fielders to be on (not "in") fair territory. If one foot isn't, the requirement isn't met.

4.03
When the ball is put in play at the start of, or during a game, all fielders other than the catcher shall be on fair territory.

[BrianC14]

Under OBR, both feet must be in fair territory. The reason I say this is because at Harry's, a certain MLB instructor stopped a game in which he was the runner (and I was the first base umpire in which 3 man mechanics were being used) and the 1st baseman had one foot completly in and the other 1/2 in 1/2 out. That stayed with even after 12 years!

Where is it defined for "both feet" in fair territory?

Rule 4.03 doesn't define it for fielders... (except for F2)... is it somewhere else?


4.03 requires fielders to be on (not "in") fair territory. If one foot isn't, the requirement isn't met.

4.03
When the ball is put in play at the start of, or during a game, all fielders other than the catcher shall be on fair territory.

Yeah, that's what I read as well.

So - where does it say in 4.03 that BOTH FEET constitute being in fair territory?

As we've seen, mere toes of one foot (FED) spells out what constitutes being on fair territory.

OBR.... does not specifically state that - at least not in 4.03.

[Rich_Ives]

Under OBR, both feet must be in fair territory. The reason I say this is because at Harry's, a certain MLB instructor stopped a game in which he was the runner (and I was the first base umpire in which 3 man mechanics were being used) and the 1st baseman had one foot completly in and the other 1/2 in 1/2 out. That stayed with even after 12 years!

Where is it defined for "both feet" in fair territory?

Rule 4.03 doesn't define it for fielders... (except for F2)... is it somewhere else?


4.03 requires fielders to be on (not "in") fair territory. If one foot isn't, the requirement isn't met.

4.03
When the ball is put in play at the start of, or during a game, all fielders other than the catcher shall be on fair territory.

Yeah, that's what I read as well.

So - where does it say in 4.03 that BOTH FEET constitute being in fair territory?

As we've seen, mere toes of one foot (FED) spells out what constitutes being on fair territory.

OBR.... does not specifically state that - at least not in 4.03.


Why does it have to be specific? If he has a foot on foul territory he isn't on fair terrotory is he?

Get a PBUC Manual - it has it covered. If you can get a MLBUM it also has it covered.

[CoachJM]

8)

From the MLBUM:

2.16 FIRST BASEMAN PLAYING IN FOUL TERRITORY

Official Baseball Rule 4.03 provides that when the ball is put in play at the start of or during a game, all fielders other than the catcher shall be on fair territory. In particular, when holding a runner on first base, the first baseman shall position himself with both feet in fair territory. There is no penalty specified for violation other than the first baseman shall be instructed to keep both feet in fair territory if brought to the attention of the umpire, or-if blatant or recurring violation upon immediate direction of the umpire. If a player, after so directed by the umpire, blatantly refuses to comply, the player is subject to ejection.

JM

[BrianC14]

8)

From the MLBUM:

2.16 FIRST BASEMAN PLAYING IN FOUL TERRITORY

Official Baseball Rule 4.03 provides that when the ball is put in play at the start of or during a game, all fielders other than the catcher shall be on fair territory. In particular, when holding a runner on first base, the first baseman shall position himself with both feet in fair territory. There is no penalty specified for violation other than the first baseman shall be instructed to keep both feet in fair territory if brought to the attention of the umpire, or-if blatant or recurring violation upon immediate direction of the umpire. If a player, after so directed by the umpire, blatantly refuses to comply, the player is subject to ejection.

JM

There! My question has been answered. Thanks JM.

Now - to the practical side - has anyone seen this enforced?

[BrianC14]

Under OBR, both feet must be in fair territory. The reason I say this is because at Harry's, a certain MLB instructor stopped a game in which he was the runner (and I was the first base umpire in which 3 man mechanics were being used) and the 1st baseman had one foot completly in and the other 1/2 in 1/2 out. That stayed with even after 12 years!

So, going back to the OP, this answer as provided by Wharf Rat is the correct answer, since it involved OBR.

Both feet. :wink: Thanks Wharf.

[Dragon29]

8)

From the MLBUM:

2.16 FIRST BASEMAN PLAYING IN FOUL TERRITORY

Official Baseball Rule 4.03 provides that when the ball is put in play at the start of or during a game, all fielders other than the catcher shall be on fair territory. In particular, when holding a runner on first base, the first baseman shall position himself with both feet in fair territory. There is no penalty specified for violation other than the first baseman shall be instructed to keep both feet in fair territory if brought to the attention of the umpire, or-if blatant or recurring violation upon immediate direction of the umpire. If a player, after so directed by the umpire, blatantly refuses to comply, the player is subject to ejection.

JM

There! My question has been answered. Thanks JM.

Now - to the practical side - has anyone seen this enforced?

Yes, I have seen it and I wouldn't encourage the practice unless (as lefteh wrote) you get a specific complaint from the offensive team; then enforce it to the letter for both. I was U3 in a game two years ago when the PU enforced it on an F5 holding R3; for the rest of the game, I heard, "Look at his feet, Blue!"; "Where are his feet?" from the dugout and spectators. Easily ignored, but annoying nonetheless.

In my view, enforcing it on your own is looking for trouble and, as we all know, trouble will find you without you having to go look for it.

[SJC_Blue]

This came up on Saturday, 13U, playoffs. R1 & R3. Off coachs wants a balk for this. I try to hide my smile and tell him no, but I'll be glad to take care of it. I tell his first baseman what's up. Total BS though. The coach was just trying to pull a fast one. Typical Rata.

[PNWBlue]

This came up on Saturday, 13U, playoffs. R1 & R3. Off coachs wants a balk for this. I try to hide my smile and tell him no, but I'll be glad to take care of it. I tell his first baseman what's up. Total BS though. The coach was just trying to pull a fast one. Typical Rata.

I had the same thing happen in a tournament recently. When the coach complained, I spoke with F3 and he corrected himself. The coach looked at the other coach and just shrugged.

[Dano]

This came up on Saturday, 13U, playoffs. R1 & R3. Off coachs wants a balk for this. I try to hide my smile and tell him no, but I'll be glad to take care of it. I tell his first baseman what's up. Total BS though. The coach was just trying to pull a fast one. Typical Rata.


The reason many coaches want the balk.. is because when one reads the rule.. it LOOKS like it is a balk.

But you have to read it closely to understand that it isn't.

[BrianC14]

I've been thinking about the OBR rule and the MLBUM in 2.16 for a bit now.

So, permit me to play devil's advocate on this:

Where is "both feet in fair territory" defined for the OBR?

It makes me wonder why FED specifically defines this, and OBR does not.

Yes, it says "both feet" - that's the easy part. But if F3 (for example) has one foot fully within the line, and the other foot has just his toes, or 1/2 his foot within the line, is he legally positioned?

Anyone?
Anyone?
Bueller?.... Bueller? :)

And rest assured, I'm not going to go "picking boogers" (as we call it here) on something like this - - after all, there are outs to be called. But this one does have my curiousity piqued.

[Rich_Ives]

The reason many coaches want the balk.. is because when one reads the rule.. it LOOKS like it is a balk.

But you have to read it closely to understand that it isn't.

WTF?


4.03 does not list a penalty. 8.05 doesn't list the "problem".

[PNWBlue]

The reason many coaches want the balk.. is because when one reads the rule.. it LOOKS like it is a balk.

But you have to read it closely to understand that it isn't.

WTF?


4.03 does not list a penalty. 8.05 doesn't list the "problem".

This is what I have in my copy:


4.03 When the ball is put in play at the start of, or during a game, all fielders other than the catcher shall be on fair territory.
(a) The catcher shall station himself directly back of the plate. He may leave his position at any time to catch a pitch or make a play except that when the batter is being given an intentional base on balls, the catcher must stand with both feet within the lines of the catcher’s box until the ball leaves the pitcher’s hand.
PENALTY: Balk.

[CoachJM]

8)

PNWBlue,

I believe Rich's point is that the "PENALTY" you cite does NOT apply to the "general" statement of 4.03, but only specifically to 4.03(a).

In regard to the explicit wording found in 4.03(a), that penalty is only applied (and even then, rarely) if the catcher leaves his box prior to the pitcher initiating his delivery rather than "...until the ball leaves the pitcher's hand."

Also, you might note that the actual text of the "general" statement of Rule 4.03 only specifies the necessary conditions for putting the ball in play, and has no proscription regarding the fielders' positions once the ball HAS been put in play. However, the proper application is to "enforce upon request" if the fielder is not "in fair territory" as the pitcher prepares to deliver a pitch.

While it is best not to go "looking for boogers", it's also important to recognize a booger when you see one - sometimes.

Baseball rules are funny that way.

JM

[Dano]

SHeesh. THAT'S WHAT I FREAKING SAID.

It looks like it is saying it is a BALK.. and that is how most coaches read it, but it ISN'T.

[PNWBlue]

No, I understand...now....Honestly, I was fortunate to have been right in how I handled the incident without fully being able to cite (in my mind) the actual rules.

In referencing the applicable rules after the game to see whether I'd completely bombed, I spent a lot of time hung up on how this particular section was laid-out and worded, which led me only to ask for help from the vets.

I just wanted to support the idea that someone not completely dedicated to really reading AND understanding the rule thoroughly could come up with the notion that a balk could/should be called.

Of course, it's entirely possible (as raised by the veteran umpired with which I conferred) that the coach actually is completely aware that it's not meant to be addressed via a 'balk' call, but is just trying to get the call in case the umpire himself doesn't get it.

[lefteh]

So, it appears I called this wrong.
Not that it's much of a call.. more that I didn't tell somebody to do something that I should have.
In the future, I guess the best course of action is to not give a crap unless the offensive team complains, and subsequently demand F3 (or any other fielder) to have both feet in fair territory.

[bobjenkins]

So, it appears I called this wrong.
Not that it's much of a call.. more that I didn't tell somebody to do something that I should have.
In the future, I guess the best course of action is to not give a crap unless the offensive team complains, and subsequently demand F3 (or any other fielder) to have both feet in fair territory.

Right. And make sure that the coach that complained is in the proper uniform, and stays exactly in the coaching box, and striclty enforce the on-deck rules (stay in the circle, one bat, etc.), and strictly time the one-minute between innings, ...

[Rich_Ives]

SHeesh. THAT'S WHAT I FREAKING SAID.

It looks like it is saying it is a BALK.. and that is how most coaches read it, but it ISN'T.

I never thought it looked like it was saying it's a balk.

The WHOLE rule reads:

4.03
When the ball is put in play at the start of, or during a game, all fielders other than the catcher shall be on fair territory.

(a) The catcher shall station himself directly back of the plate. He may leave his position at any time to catch a pitch or make a play except that when the batter is being given an intentional base on balls, the catcher must stand with both feet within the lines of the catcher’s box until the ball leaves the pitcher’s hand. PENALTY: Balk.

(b) The pitcher, while in the act of delivering the ball to the batter, shall take his legal position;

(c) Except the pitcher and the catcher, any fielder may station himself anywhere in fair territory;

(d) Except the batter, or a runner attempting to score, no offensive player shall cross the catcher’s lines when the ball is in play.


The balk penalty is only in 4.03(a) - which only applies to catchers and the penalty is on actions taken on intentional walks. Therefore it only applies there.

BTW the same action/penalty IS listed in 8.05 - the balk rule.

[Dano]

SHeesh. THAT'S WHAT I FREAKING SAID.

It looks like it is saying it is a BALK.. and that is how most coaches read it, but it ISN'T.

I never thought it looked like it was saying it's a balk.

The WHOLE rule reads:

4.03
When the ball is put in play at the start of, or during a game, all fielders other than the catcher shall be on fair territory.

(a) The catcher shall station himself directly back of the plate. He may leave his position at any time to catch a pitch or make a play except that when the batter is being given an intentional base on balls, the catcher must stand with both feet within the lines of the catcher’s box until the ball leaves the pitcher’s hand. PENALTY: Balk.

(b) The pitcher, while in the act of delivering the ball to the batter, shall take his legal position;

(c) Except the pitcher and the catcher, any fielder may station himself anywhere in fair territory;

(d) Except the batter, or a runner attempting to score, no offensive player shall cross the catcher’s lines when the ball is in play.


The balk penalty is only in 4.03(a) - which only applies to catchers and the penalty is on actions taken on intentional walks. Therefore it only applies there.

BTW the same action/penalty IS listed in 8.05 - the balk rule.

This is true Rich.

However, when you read it FROM THE BOOK.. there are no double spacings between the original comment, a, b, c, etc.

That is what causes confusion.

[Rich_Ives]

I don't have a real book - what I posted is an copy/paste from last year's rules on line at MLB.com

This year they dropped the (d) section as it was archaic. The on-line version has the spacings.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/foreword.jsp