Is a balk to 2nd base possible?

[Dano]

2 situations I have personally witnessed

Runner on 2nd base in both of them


#1. LHP working from the set. Pitcher comes to set at the belt. Without moving either foot, LHP torques body and throws to 2nd base.

BALK


#2. RHP with the "old-school" wind-up, i.e., taking the plant foot behind the rubber, then going over the head with both glove and pitching hand.

Pitcher thinking he could fool runner, goes into wind-up. Takes the plant foot behind the rubber, hands go over head, stops, turns, and throws.

BALK

[Matt13]

2 situations I have personally witnessed

Runner on 2nd base in both of them


#1. LHP working from the set. Pitcher comes to set at the belt. Without moving either foot, LHP torques body and throws to 2nd base.

BALK


#2. RHP with the "old-school" wind-up, i.e., taking the plant foot behind the rubber, then going over the head with both glove and pitching hand.

Pitcher thinking he could fool runner, goes into wind-up. Takes the plant foot behind the rubber, hands go over head, stops, turns, and throws.

BALK

#2 is not a balk to second base. It's a balk for interrupting his motion after committing to pitch.

[BlueSkies]

2 situations I have personally witnessed:
#1. LHP working from the set. Pitcher comes to set at the belt. Without moving either foot, LHP torques body and throws to 2nd base.
#2. RHP with the "old-school" wind-up, i.e., taking the plant foot behind the rubber, then going over the head with both glove and pitching hand.Another situation that has been discussed before is pitcher stepping toward 2B and throwing to 3B when R2 is not stealing.

[Tim_C]

#1 is not a balk TO second. It is a balk for failing to deliver the pitch. Once he breaks his hands he has not made a pitch.

#2 is already answered.

The last example of "stepping to second and throwing to third with a base runner not advancing" is not a balk as F1 does not have to throw to anyone therefore he can throw to anyone. If that makes sense.

IIITBT(an occupied)SB.

Thanks for playing.

[Dano]

#1 is not a balk TO second. It is a balk for failing to deliver the pitch. Once he breaks his hands he has not made a pitch.




Incorrect Tim.

Since he didn't step directly toward the base to throw, it is a balk, TO 2ND BASE based upon the fact that he is THROWING to SECOND BASE without STEPPING TO SECOND BASE from the set position.



8.05c
(c) The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base;



In a similar circumstance:

LHP while touching the pitching plate, and NOT coming set, throws directly to second base without stepping toward it.

This also is a balk TO SECOND BASE.

[cbfoulds]

#1 is not a balk TO second. It is a balk for failing to deliver the pitch. Once he breaks his hands he has not made a pitch.




Incorrect Tim.

Since he didn't step directly toward the base to throw, it is a balk, TO 2ND BASE based upon the fact that he is THROWING to SECOND BASE without STEPPING TO SECOND BASE from the set position.
~sigh~ [to quote Tim]
Dano -
The only reason for you to persist is 'cause you want an argument.. maybe Tim will play, maybe not.
Read carefully:
It IS a balk...
the REASON for the balk is that, having stepped [or perhaps failing to step anywhere except] "home", he failed to pitch after breaking his hands ...
it would be the SAME balk, for the same reason, if he threw to 1st, 3d, RF, or not at all; the throw to 2d is surplus and irrelevent ... thus
IIITBT[o]SB.

[cbfoulds]

2 situations I have personally witnessed:
#1. LHP working from the set. Pitcher comes to set at the belt. Without moving either foot, LHP torques body and throws to 2nd base.
#2. RHP with the "old-school" wind-up, i.e., taking the plant foot behind the rubber, then going over the head with both glove and pitching hand.Another situation that has been discussed before is pitcher stepping toward 2B and throwing to 3B when R2 is not stealing.
You DO understand that, even according to the thinking of the IIITBTSB-deniers, THIS is not a "balk to 2d base", don't you [F1 throwing, after all, to 3d] ?

[Tim_C]

I will retire from the thread at this time.

Your examples are the same ones that have been dicussed many, many times on this and other sites.

Neither of the sample plays are balks TO second base.

I retire now as I don't want top argue with the wind.

Regards,

[Dano]

First of all to cbfoulds, thank you for your thinking you know why I am posting. I really apprecaite such astute judgment on your part, particularly when you really don't know.

Secondly, to Tim.
I have not seen those incidents raised on this site or other sites. For the record I did look and did google before I posted them.

In the particular instance where the pitcher came set, I understand the argument of the "breaking of the hands" and the techincal issue that the must come to the plate, i.e., that is the reason for the balk.

Understood and I will certainly allow that one to go by the wayside by way of technicality.


On the third one I posted, that technical issue is removed.

LHP
Foot on the pitcher plate.
Hands are not together.
Pitcher has not come set but is working from the set (stretch) position.
Pitcher turns and throws WITHOUT stepping directly to that base.

As per 8.05C, the way it is worded, indicates that it is a balk TO THAT BASE.


Oh and for the record Tim.

I stalk you and Richard on this board. I look specifically for your posts when you discuss rules, situations, etc. because of your knowledge.

I also know Tim, that you hate it when posters post questions, are told they are wrong, yet continue to post.

In all reality, whether or not it is possible or impossible is mere semantics if you ask me.

A BALK IS A BALK IS A BALK.

But you did "challenge", and I wanted to give it a shot.

[HoosierBlue]

Everyone who claims IIITBT2B is directly stating that Jim Evans is wrong.

That takes gonads and/or a load of stupidity.

I'm in the camp who feels it is semantics ... FYI.

[bobjenkins]

Everyone who claims IIITBT2B is directly stating that Jim Evans is wrong.

That takes gonads and/or a load of stupidity.

I'm in the camp who feels it is semantics ... FYI.

I seem to recall that Evans admitted to one of the "respected" posters on one of the boards that the phrasing was technically correct.

[Tim_C]

"I'm in the camp who feels it is semantics . . . "

Finally!

It IS semantics. That is what the entire statement is ALL ABOUT.

As I have tried to explain before. I use the term (IIITBTSB) when training as I want to eliminate from umpires heads the thought that balks (as determined by FANS) seldom happen when second base is occupied . . . to the base.

Jim Evans told me it was dangerous to use the term as new umpires may interpret the comment to mean "a pitcher cannot balk when second base is occupied". We know a pitcher CAN balk but all of those balks are normally associated with a "pitch".

Regards,

[Dano]

"I'm in the camp who feels it is semantics . . . "

Finally!

It IS semantics. That is what the entire statement is ALL ABOUT.



That's what I said.. SEMANTICS.

[mike_l]

The last example of "stepping to second and throwing to third with a base runner not advancing" is not a balk as F1 does not have to throw to anyone therefore he can throw to anyone. If that makes sense.

IIITBT(an occupied)SB.

Thanks for playing.
F1 steps "in contact" towards 2B but throws to 3B, and your not going to call it a balk ?:confused:
if F1 wants to throw to 3B, he has to step towards 3B, or am i missing something completely ? 8-)

[MCLEOD36]

Mike,
what they are looking at is the balk, in not pitching, that is seperating the hands and not going to the plate vs. stepping towards the base and either throwing to an occupied one or an unoccupied one. Meaning, if you are seperating your hands, you have to go home, thus the balk there. Not stepping towards the base.

[mike_l]

so just to make sure, the 2nd/3rd move IS a balk ?

Mike

[MCLEOD36]

if runner is going yes.....

[Tim_C]

OK, I will type real slowly:

Since many are new here I will explain "It Is Impossible To Balk To (an occupied) Second Base":

We all know the following:

1) At no time does F1 need to disengage when throwing to second. As he does not have to throw at all this eliminates many, many balks.

2) F1 does not need to throw "to the base" . . . that is only a rule at first base. F1 can turn and throw to F6 even if he has ranged far towards third base. This eliminates many, many balks.

3) F1 "gains direction" the instant his non-pivot foot lands behind (on the second base side) of the pitcher's plate.

4) Someone will make a conveluted move in an attempt to prove IIITBT(ao)SB. That is fine. Pitcher's are weird enough that your "exception" simply proves the rule.

Let's make it clear:

I have sat in the cafeteria @ Wilsonville High School (Wilsonville, OR) and discussed this exact statement with Jim Evans. We spoke directly of his comment in his balk video . . . as I stated earlier Jim is mostly concerned when people use an all encompassing term (IIITBTSB) is that some will take the thought literally. Evans and I (wow, there's two vastly different guys in terms of reputation) agree to disagree on the statement but agree in "general" about the thought.

Disclaimer:

As I read the last play in this thread "if" F1 stepped towards second and r2 attempted an advance F1 could thro to F6 but not F5 or it would certainly be a balk . . . it would be a balk for separationg the hands on not completing the pitch.

Again . . . I will now drop out of the thread.

TC

[BT_Blue]

OK, I will type real slowly:

Since many are new here I will explain "It Is Impossible To Balk To (an occupied) Second Base":

We all know the following:

1) At no time does F1 need to disengage when throwing to second. As he does not have to throw at all this eliminates many, many balks.

2) F1 does not need to throw "to the base" . . . that is only a rule at first base. F1 can turn and throw to F6 even if he has ranged far towards third base. This eliminates many, many balks.

3) F1 "gains direction" the instant his non-pivot foot lands behind (on the second base side) of the pitcher's plate.

4) Someone will make a conveluted move in an attempt to prove IIITBT(ao)SB. That is fine. Pitcher's are weird enough that your "exception" simply proves the rule.

Let's make it clear:

I have sat in the cafeteria @ Wilsonville High School (Wilsonville, OR) and discussed this exact statement with Jim Evans. We spoke directly of his comment in his balk video . . . as I stated earlier Jim is mostly concerned when people use an all encompassing term (IIITBTSB) is that some will take the thought literally. Evans and I (wow, there's two vastly different guys in terms of reputation) agree to disagree on the statement but agree in "general" about the thought.

Disclaimer:

As I read the last play in this thread "if" F1 stepped towards second and r2 attempted an advance F1 could thro to F6 but not F5 or it would certainly be a balk . . . it would be a balk for separationg the hands on not completing the pitch.

Again . . . I will now drop out of the thread.

TC

Sooner or later Tim everyone will understand and the thought of questions about balking to second base will be a thing of the past.

We can all hope.

[mstaylor]

As the kid from "Angels in the Outfield" said, "It could happen." :p

[mike_l]

if runner is going yes.....
so, if we have runners on 2nd and 3rd (and nobody is going anywhere) it would be a balk, because he steps towards 2ndbase and throws towards 3rdbase ?
tough to picture this situation ;)

i don't care about IIITBTSB, i just want to know this type of a balk (stepping towards a base, throwing towards a different base)

[bobjenkins]

so, if we have runners on 2nd and 3rd (and nobody is going anywhere) it would be a balk, because he steps towards 2ndbase and throws towards 3rdbase ?
tough to picture this situation ;)

i don't care about IIITBTSB, i just want to know this type of a balk (stepping towards a base, throwing towards a different base)

Yes, it's a balk.

Note that "IIITBTSB" is NOT the same as "it's impossible to balk while making a move toward second base"

[mike_l]

thanks a lot bob !

i guess the rules for a pick off situation with a runner on 2nd only apply to a runner on 3rd only as well (should be, but i wanna be 100% sure).

but what about that 3rd world play :
R3, F1 steps towards 3rdbase, but throws the ball over the plate ? may the batter swing at that ball ?

--> pic <-- (http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7696/picbe4.jpg)

[mike_l]

just found the following example from the Wendelstedt manual, which contradicts the previous posts.

P15: R2, one out, 2-1 count. The pitcher steps to second base, but throws the ball to the shortstop at his position.
Ruling:This move is legal. The pitcher has fulfilled his requirements when he stepped to second base. As long as he does not step to second and throw to another base, he may throw the ball to any fielder at their position.

strage !

[MCLEOD36]

To much eggnog. If the runner is not going, sorry about that Mike, I didnt mean to short change you on that. If runner is not going, you can either throw or feint to 2nd base. If you threw to 3rd base, ie unoccupied base it would be a balk. Sorry for the confusion

[bobjenkins]

but what about that 3rd world play :
R3, F1 steps towards 3rdbase, but throws the ball over the plate ? may the batter swing at that ball ?

It's still a pitch, so if the batter swings and hits it, the ball is in play and the balk might be ignored.

(note that under FED the ball is immediately dead on a balk,so the above does not apply)

[mike_l]

It's still a pitch, so if the batter swings and hits it, the ball is in play and the balk might be ignored.
sounds good !:p

i still don't get the step/throw to a different base not yet. :confused:
infielders play their regular position.
F1 steps to 2nd and throws to F4/F6 = no balk !
F1 steps to 2nd and throws to F5/F3 = balk !
F1 steps to 3rd and throws to F6 = balk !

but there is something, that TIM_C said
"The last example of "stepping to second and throwing to third with a base runner not advancing" is not a balk as F1 does not have to throw to anyone therefore he can throw to anyone. If that makes sense."

is anyone ANYONE, or is anyone = F6/F4 ?

[mstaylor]

F1 steps to 2nd and throws to F4/F6 = no balk !
F1 steps to 2nd and throws to F5/F3 = balk !

You're good on these two.

F1 steps to 3rd and throws to F6 = balk !

This one is tricky because if F6 is closer to third than second then it isn't a balk.
I'm going to let Tim C clarify what he was saying. I think I could but I don't want to put words in his mouth.

[BT_Blue]

I'm going to let Tim C clarify what he was saying. I think I could but I don't want to put words in his mouth.

Not only that but from past experience on here doing that could get dangerous.

[Tim_C]

"F1 steps to 3rd and throws to F6 = balk !"

Not so fast my friend:

F5 playing "in" . . .

F5 charges towards the plate (maybe a bunt or something) . . .

F6 is breaking towards third base (kind of a wheel play) and . . .

F1 throws to F6 . . . perfectly legal no matter his location.

Please remember when a pitcher is not required to throw to a base during a pickoff attempt it gets more and more difficult to balk to "that" base.

Regards,

[MCLEOD36]

All I can say is....YOU guys are pretty good.....

It is nice clarifying that for all, ie when a new guy has enough gumption to ask a question, in effort to get it right, I COMMEND HIM TOO.

[Ozzy]

It seems that many either did not read (or just didn't understand) Tim's previous post. The second item in the post is the key.......

F1 does not need to throw "to the base" . . . that is only a rule at first base. F1 can turn and throw to F6 even if he has ranged far towards third base. This eliminates many, many balks.
People get hung up on the "has to throw to the base" and do not understand that this (as Tim states) is only, only in effect when throwing to 1st base! If you can get this through your head (and it takes a lot for some people), you will understand the whole situation. Of course, you will never be able to explain this to a coach as they have this mental block that keeps saying, "He has to throw to the base!", "He has to throw to the base!".

[mstaylor]

You're right Ozzy, many do get hung up on that part. However, I was just clarifying the part when the ball was thrown. I guess I have been doing it long enough that sometimes I forget how much I didn't know. :oops: I try to keep that in mind but it occasionally escapes.:mrgreen:

[mike_l]

thanks TIM_C and the rest of you,
i know that the throw does not have to be to the base at 2nd or 3rd. but what i dont get is, WHO could take the throw, when F1 steps toward 2ndbase ? F6, yes of course, he's the SS on the team. TIM_C always gives us different ex. with F6.
I guess if F5 took the throw in TIM_C's last ex., it would be a balk, right ?
Could you get me an ex. where F5 takes a throw with a step to 2ndbase ? maybe that sheds some light on it.

regards
Mike

[Tim_C]

The post above is EXACTLY why my association does not allow "what ifs". This thread was done two pages ago.

I will now retire from the thread for real.

Regards

[JohnnyD]

If Tim C threatens to drop out of a thread, then re-enters, is that a balk to the 2nd (time) or an illegal re-entry?

X X
O
\___/
U

Happy New Year! JD

[cbfoulds]

thanks TIM_C and the rest of you,
i know that the throw does not have to be to the base at 2nd or 3rd. but what i dont get is, WHO could take the throw, when F1 steps toward 2ndbase ? F6, yes of course, he's the SS on the team. TIM_C always gives us different ex. with F6.
I guess if F5 took the throw in TIM_C's last ex., it would be a balk, right ?
Could you get me an ex. where F5 takes a throw with a step to 2ndbase ? maybe that sheds some light on it.

regards
Mike
I see what Tim means about outlawing "what-ifs", but in an effort to answer the question:
when F1 "steps toward 2d base" ANY FIELDER can "take the throw" if said fielder is in a position to make a play on a runner who either (A) started @ 2d or (B) is headed toward 2d. IOW, it doesn't matter WHO "takes the throw" [catches the ball], it is what the fielder could [at least attempt to] do once he "took the throw".

[mike_l]

I see what Tim means about outlawing "what-ifs", but in an effort to answer the question:
when F1 "steps toward 2d base" ANY FIELDER can "take the throw" if said fielder is in a position to make a play on a runner who either (A) started @ 2d or (B) is headed toward 2d. IOW, it doesn't matter WHO "takes the throw" [catches the ball], it is what the fielder could [at least attempt to] do once he "took the throw".
nice !
this helped me a lot. :D
so even F5 could catch the ball while he is stationary at his position (10 ft. away from the bag), but would be able to make a play on R2. i like that play :-)

great guys !!!
thanks
Mike

[DP]

Long time poster to this web site and well known writer about umpiring baseball Carl Childress, said it is written in stone, no balks to 2nd base. After endless discussion on this forum we still go over this point. There may be other reasons for a balk when a guy is on second but you can't balk to second base.