fielder knocks fair ball out of play

[pujols54]

Cards v. Brewers game tonite: In the 3d, Brewers had R1 and R2, with 2 out. A pop-up was hit fair down the 1B line. The pop-up hit the Cards second baseman's glove and he fumbled it toward the stands until it hit the ground and bounced out of play. The batter was awarded 2B and both R1 and R2 scored. What rule, when applied allowed the runner to score from 1B?

[BrianC14]

Cards v. Brewers game tonite: In the 3d, Brewers had R1 and R2, with 2 out. A pop-up was hit fair down the 1B line. The pop-up hit the Cards second baseman's glove and he fumbled it toward the stands until it hit the ground and bounced out of play. The batter was awarded 2B and both R1 and R2 scored. What rule, when applied allowed the runner to score from 1B?

R1 must have reached at least 2B when the ball was booted out of play.

Base award in that situation would be awarded to runners from the base they occupy at time of the play.

this is interesting...I think the umpires may have kicked this call (I have not seen this play but am going on the OP as described)...I am quoting from the PBUC manual and on this I don't believe the MLBUM would be different.

From the PBUC manual 3.8 pg. 27
"If a fair fly ball is deflected by a fielder and goes out of play outside the foul lines, the award is two bases from the time of pitch"
"If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and subsequently deflects or kicks the ball out of play, the award is two bases from the position of the runners at the time the ball was kicked or deflected."

If the play happened as described, it doesn't sound like the infielder had complete possession (you could argue there would have been an out with the exception of voluntary release...but thats another topic) hence the award should have been from time of pitch and R1 should remain at third....

[BrianC14]

this is interesting...I think the umpires may have kicked this call (I have not seen this play but am going on the OP as described)...I am quoting from the PBUC manual and on this I don't believe the MLBUM would be different.

From the PBUC manual 3.8 pg. 27
"If a fair fly ball is deflected by a fielder and goes out of play outside the foul lines, the award is two bases from the time of pitch"
"If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and subsequently deflects or kicks the ball out of play, the award is two bases from the position of the runners at the time the ball was kicked or deflected."

If the play happened as described, it doesn't sound like the infielder had complete possession (you could argue there would have been an out with the exception of voluntary release...but thats another topic) hence the award should have been from time of pitch and R1 should remain at third....

But according to the OP, it hit the ground first....

Cards v. Brewers game tonite: In the 3d, Brewers had R1 and R2, with 2 out. A pop-up was hit fair down the 1B line. The pop-up hit the Cards second baseman's glove and he fumbled it toward the stands until it hit the ground and bounced out of play. The batter was awarded 2B and both R1 and R2 scored. What rule, when applied allowed the runner to score from 1B?

brian,i don't mean to be a jerk but..... where does it say that?...
and , oh yeah, it doesn't matter....
also from pg. 27
"if a fair ball not in flight is deflected by a fielder and then goes out of play, the award is two bases from time of pitch"

[pujols54]

The fly ball hit in the second baseman's glove and popped up and out toward the stands. He followed it and fumbled it, trying to catch it. It finally fell to the ground and bounced out of play. The batter was awarded 2B and the 1B runner was awarded home.

pujols...
i thinked they erred and have outlined why i think so

i hope this works


http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2008_05_12_slnmlb_milmlb_1&mode=wrap

click on 'kennedy's error allows two runs to score'

[BrianC14]

Cards v. Brewers game tonite: In the 3d, Brewers had R1 and R2, with 2 out. A pop-up was hit fair down the 1B line. The pop-up hit the Cards second baseman's glove and he fumbled it toward the stands until it hit the ground and bounced out of play. The batter was awarded 2B and both R1 and R2 scored. What rule, when applied allowed the runner to score from 1B?

brian,i don't mean to be a jerk but..... where does it say that?...
and , oh yeah, it doesn't matter....
also from pg. 27
"if a fair ball not in flight is deflected by a fielder and then goes out of play, the award is two bases from time of pitch"

It's right there - - "he fumbled it toward the stands until it hit the ground and bounced out of play..."

Why wouldn't it matter? I'm using the rule of thumb here, "One from the mound, two from the field" in the base awards.

[BrianC14]

i hope this works


http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2008_05_12_slnmlb_milmlb_1&mode=wrap

click on 'kennedy's error allows two runs to score'

Just like the announcer says, (paraphrased): "he's way beyond second (referring to R1) and he'll get another..."

One of the few times I'll agree with an announcer. The ball was fair when it was first touched... it hits the ground in foul territory, then bounces into the stands. That should be ruled (as they did) a ground rule double.

You're referring to "page 27"... .of what ?? What rule # is that?

wow...brian...READ my post...PBUC manual pg. 27....kind of a respected little publication....secondly...calling a ground rule double doesn't help place R1...reread my post...R1 should've been awarded 2 bases from time of pitch, not time of deflection....WHEN IT HIT THE GROUND IS OF NO CONSEQUENCE...again read the cites ive written....

your citing' the rule of thumb'...im citing from an umpire manual..you wouldn't make a very game manager....if a manager comes out and argues this call are you going to hit him with your "rule of thumb"?

[BrianC14]

wow...brian...READ my post...PBUC manual pg. 27....kind of a respected little publication....secondly...calling a ground rule double doesn't help place R1...reread my post...R1 should've been awarded 2 bases from time of pitch, not time of deflection....WHEN IT HIT THE GROUND IS OF NO CONSEQUENCE...again read the cites ive written....

your citing' the rule of thumb'...im citing from an umpire manual..you wouldn't make a very game manager....if a manager comes out and argues this call are you going to hit him with your "rule of thumb"?

Hey, first off, dial it down a notch, John Wayne, nobody (least of all me) is criticizing you... I asked a simple and straightforward question. If I misread your post, well la-dee-freakin' da. Sue me. In the meantime, take your condescension and stuff it.

So it's in the PBUC manual, Page 27. Great. OK. Now I understand your point about what PBUC says.

Now, as I view the video, the ball bounced from the ground into the stands. If the ball was deflected into the stands (e.g., directly from the glove into the stands, as PBUC P. 27 states) then there might be an issue of awarding bases from TOP.

But in this case, it hit the glove, gets bobbled, then it hits the ground, then into the stands. As I see it, hitting the ground prior to going into the stands might just be why they awarded from the time of the dead ball, and not the time of pitch. Had the ball gone from the glove into the stands, then maybe they'd have ruled it from TOP. Then again, I can't possibly imagine what they were thinking, since I'm nowhere near the level of an MLB umpire.

Are you?

[SocalBlue1]

My understanding is that the umpires took into consideration that the ball was originally touched in fair territory and was NOT deflected directly out of play but rather had it's direction changed by the fielder. Add multiple touches and one could create a case that the fielders subsequent actions caused the ball to go into DBT.

Similar to a wild pitch tracked down by F2 a sliding who then kicks it into DBT.

IMO they made the correct call.

[Ozzy]

My understanding is that the umpires took into consideration that the ball was originally touched in fair territory and was NOT deflected directly out of play but rather had it's direction changed by the fielder. Add multiple touches and one could create a case that the fielders subsequent actions caused the ball to go into DBT.

Similar to a wild pitch tracked down by F2 a sliding who then kicks it into DBT.

IMO they made the correct call.
FINALLY! Someone makes the correct observation and applies the rule correctly! Nice job SocialBlue!

You see Brian, you can read the PBUC and memorize the MLBUM but if you don't see the play correctly, you will just be another poster. The Big Dogs got this 100% correct my friend. You did make a good point, you just didn't see the forest for the trees! We all do that at one time or another.

Peace!

After more discussion on the other forum, and more breaking down of the play, I too, believe they got it right....the wild pitch analogy is spot on ...the problem I have is this is so poorly written in the manuals that a lay umpire, like me, has nothing more to go on than the written word of the manuals as a guide and when you read this manual there is no way they got it right. It directly contradicts it.
But they did....So Ozzy, with regard to your 'forest thru the trees' analogy, I just wish they could cut down some trees...it doesn't seem too difficult to fix

Hey Brian, you are right, i was just frustrated that I had spent time to look it up and you glossed it over it.
For the bi tchy attitude...I apologize

[tcarilli]

After more discussion on the other forum, and more breaking down of the play, I too, believe they got it right....the wild pitch analogy is spot on ...the problem I have is this is so poorly written in the manuals that a lay umpire, like me, has nothing more to go on than the written word of the manuals as a guide and when you read this manual there is no way they got it right. It directly contradicts it.
But they did....So Ozzy, with regard to your 'forest thru the trees' analogy, I just wish they could cut down some trees...it doesn't seem too difficult to fix

Hey Brian, you are right, i was just frustrated that I had spent time to look it up and you glossed it over it.
For the bi tchy attitude...I apologize

Never forget, rule books, interpretation manuals, mechanics manuals, etc. are finite documents meant to deal with an infinite number of situations...sometimes you just have to umpire.

[BrianC14]

After more discussion on the other forum, and more breaking down of the play, I too, believe they got it right....the wild pitch analogy is spot on ...the problem I have is this is so poorly written in the manuals that a lay umpire, like me, has nothing more to go on than the written word of the manuals as a guide and when you read this manual there is no way they got it right. It directly contradicts it.
But they did....So Ozzy, with regard to your 'forest thru the trees' analogy, I just wish they could cut down some trees...it doesn't seem too difficult to fix

Hey Brian, you are right, i was just frustrated that I had spent time to look it up and you glossed it over it.
For the bi tchy attitude...I apologize

Hey, no harm done.

In the words of Red Green:

"Remember, I'm pulling for you. We're all in this together." :wink: