Wood Bats

[mfs914]

I had a discussion with someone today, in the rule book it states A bat shall not weight numerically more than 3 ounces less then the length.

It does not mention non-wood bats, so i would say that it applies to both wood and non-wood. My argument was, and i know that most wood bats weight more then the length, but nowhere on a wood bat does it mention the weight. So how can we be absolutly sure that they are "regulation"

I'm just play devils advocate, and wondering how we can really check equipment prior to a game, when wood bats do not have the weight listed on them. And the reason i bring this up, is because one of our high school leagues, is a wood bat league.

Any thoughts,
Mike

[Rash3UC]

I had a discussion with someone today, in the rule book it states A bat shall not weight numerically more than 3 ounces less then the length.

It does not mention non-wood bats, so i would say that it applies to both wood and non-wood. My argument was, and i know that most wood bats weight more then the length, but nowhere on a wood bat does it mention the weight. So how can we be absolutly sure that they are "regulation"

I'm just play devils advocate, and wondering how we can really check equipment prior to a game, when wood bats do not have the weight listed on them. And the reason i bring this up, is because one of our high school leagues, is a wood bat league.

Any thoughts,
Mike


Nowadays, most wood bats are somewhere between a -2 to -3 depending on company and wood used to make the bat. I have two Mash Bats that are cupped carrying a -2 length to weight ratio

[Richard_Siegel]

The purpose of the -3 requirement on a metal bat is to get the metal bet to behave like a wooden bat. If a player prefers to use a wooden bat I wouldn't bother to worry about the weight.

[mfs914]

I agree Richard, I'm just saying the rule book does not differentiate between wood and nonwood bats for the -3 requirment.

I guess it's just another one of those cases of a rule that isnt clearly written!

[JohnnyD]

I don't think it's possible for solid ash or maple (or any other wood that's durable enough to be a bat) to be that much less weight than its length, numerically. A bat made of a lighter and more durable substance can be much lighter than it's length, numerically.

JD

[Majordave]

I don't think the weight of a pure wood bat is for our determination. The rule is written poorly. If they want to swing wood by all means let them. If they swing metal, ceramic, composite then it must at least partially act like wood or at least not be so superior to the properties of wood that it gives an unfair advantage. The real advantage to non-breakable bat materials is the most noticeable on balls that hit the handle. I have seen great inside fastballs get smashed over the wall by a strong hitter when he was using aluminum and it hit on the handle. (just watch College World Series highlights) I have not seen a ball go over a wall off the handle of a wood bat. Now, mind you, I think it could happen but I have not seen it. I have seen wood get sawed off in a hitter's hands and heard a lot of cursing and hand shaking but no HR's, yet.

[BrianC14]

A bit of a sidebar to this topic, but interesting nonetheless:

http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/bats-new/alumwood.html

If it were my decision, all levels of basball would be using wood bats.

And another article re: bat weight, swing speed and bat velocity:

http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/bats-new/batw8.html
(Pity they've kept the bit about McGwire and Bonds, given what we've seen come to light).

[Rash3UC]

If it were my decision, all levels of basball would be using wood bats.


Due to money, it's never going to happen

[BrianC14]

If it were my decision, all levels of basball would be using wood bats.


Due to money, it's never going to happen

There's more money in wood bats, if that's what you mean.

[dash_riprock]

We're getting there. Long Island Catholic schools have been wood bat only for at least 2 years. Last spring, NYC Council banned metal bats from HS play, overriding Mayor Mike Bloomberg's veto.

Let's play the game the way Mr. Doubleday intended it to be played. If a pitcher saws off a bat, he should get an out out of it.

[Rash3UC]

If it were my decision, all levels of basball would be using wood bats.


Due to money, it's never going to happen

There's more money in wood bats, if that's what you mean.

Actually, there's not. A bat is anywhere from 50 to 100 dollars. When I was playing, I went through 2 a season tops and sometimes was able to use 1 for the entire season then also for part of the next for fall ball. With Aluminum bats the technology changes so much every two years that you just "have" to go get a new bat at least every other year if not every year. Cost of those bats are now pushing 400 dollars.


As for the decision makers, we all know in the NCAA it is the coaches who make the decisions nationally. Here is their take into it. Monetarily, their endorsements are higher because they are using Aluminum. Secondly, fairness of play... There are not enough trees in this world to assure that a D1 Level school such as Oregon St. would get the same level of bats as say Murray St. of Kentucky. Most likely Oregon St. is going to be getting the better bats. Aluminum bats aren't going to have such a fluxuation in how they perform therefore Murray St. is able to have the same quality bats as Oregon St.

[BrianC14]

If it were my decision, all levels of basball would be using wood bats.


Due to money, it's never going to happen

There's more money in wood bats, if that's what you mean.

Actually, there's not. A bat is anywhere from 50 to 100 dollars. When I was playing, I went through 2 a season tops and sometimes was able to use 1 for the entire season then also for part of the next for fall ball. With Aluminum bats the technology changes so much every two years that you just "have" to go get a new bat at least every other year if not every year. Cost of those bats are now pushing 400 dollars.


As for the decision makers, we all know in the NCAA it is the coaches who make the decisions nationally. Here is their take into it. Monetarily, their endorsements are higher because they are using Aluminum. Secondly, fairness of play... There are not enough trees in this world to assure that a D1 Level school such as Oregon St. would get the same level of bats as say Murray St. of Kentucky. Most likely Oregon St. is going to be getting the better bats. Aluminum bats aren't going to have such a fluxuation in how they perform therefore Murray St. is able to have the same quality bats as Oregon St.

Sounds more like excuses made by coaches that get money from bat companies.

[Cal Blue]

If it were my decision, all levels of basball would be using wood bats.


I work a lot of wood bat leagues, and my son has been privately using wood since age 12 when he's doing his side work. He also played in wood bat scout leagues the last two years. Let me tell you, the danger from broken wood bats is significant. If the youth leagues and high schools turn away from metal, they should go to bamboo, which is much more durable, and when it breaks, it just splits apart a little lengthwise, and doesn't fly at anyone in pieces.

Ash trees in North American forests are being decimated by a voracious beetle that is quickly depleting supplies of ash for the ensuing decades. Maple is harder on the surface, but is very costly and disintegrates dangerously when it shatters. Mahogany and hickory are also used in some bats. I have a couple of mahogany Mizunos that were given to me by a former player who finished his career in Japan. They are very hard and dense and difficult to break. My son's been trying to break it for years.

Bamboo is the answer. It's cheaper ($25-to-$45.00 per bat), harder, more durable, more plentiful and safer than wood, but performs in a way that is similar to wood. It gets a wood sound and because of its hardness, its exit speeds are higher than those off maple, but not as high as the exit speeds off metal or metal composite.

Bamboo completely blows both the cost and safety arguments out of the water. My son uses up a premier quality Easton composite in a year. It costs nearly $400.00 to replace it each time. It's become his annual birthday present. If I bought him $400.00 worth of bamboo bats (a dozen), he would take eight years or more to wear them out. I gave one to a minor league slugger. He's going on two years of batting practice and the thing is still working fine. My son's two bamboos are constanly being loaned out and borrowed, so they see a ton of use. They're both still fine after two years, also.

If I had a league, it would be using bamboo bats. Just like wood, but safer and cheaper.

[Ozzy]

Well, I never liked metal bats from day one! I have always been a wood bat advocate so much so that I convinced my son to use wood bats when he was still in LL! He kept a metal bat in the bag along with 3 Louisville Sluggers and would alternate from time to time to mess with the defense. I remember an American Legion coach refusing to put him in the line up because he was using wood, even though he had 15 HR's and batting .398! Some people are just fools, I guess. Hell, I am so against the use of metal, I still use Persimmon woods (20 years old) for golf!

[Keefj200]

Well, I never liked metal bats from day one! I have always been a wood bat advocate so much so that I convinced my son to use wood bats when he was still in LL! He kept a metal bat in the bag along with 3 Louisville Sluggers and would alternate from time to time to mess with the defense. I remember an American Legion coach refusing to put him in the line up because he was using wood, even though he had 15 HR's and batting .398! Some people are just fools, I guess. Hell, I am so against the use of metal, I still use Persimmon woods (20 years old) for golf!

Do you feel your son’s performance was hampered in any way by his exclusive use of a wood bat? Yes, his statistics were wonderful, but I would always wonder how much they would have improved with a superior bat.

[Cal Blue]

In competition, a kid should use whatever technology is available to give him the edge. I also feel very strongly--as I stated earlier--that the intrinsic dangers of wood bat debris place young, developing players in greater danger than the increased exit speeds of balls coming off of aluminum bats.

I trained my son with minus-3 wood bats in BP, while he was competing in a minus-8 PONY league. He started using a minus-3 aluminum in PONY at 13. He got that around great and dominated with it, soit didn't hurt that he was using a heavier bat than allowed. But we would never hurt any team we're on by using wood in a league or tournament that allows metal. In fact, when he got to high school, the marketing guy at Easton was an alum of his school, and gave the school's players Easton Stealths that were approved, but not yet for sale. So we even used technology that was as new as possible if it gave him a competitive edge.

In Southern California, a lot of the big league teams have scout teams. They use wood bats in that league, so that the pitchers and hitters can be accurately evaluated by the pro scouts running the clubs and visiting the games. My son's a slugger and a ground ball pitcher. He is helped as a pitcher by facing hitters using wood, and he was not as badly hurt as a hitter, because he had been squaring balls with a small sweet spot since he was 12.

I agree that established players should use wood just for the purity of the game and to make the playing field more realistic.

But, developing athletes should not be subjected to the dangers of flying wood debris, nor should they be placed at a disadvantage as hitters ... pitchers already dominate enough at the younger levels. Cost is no longer a relevant factor, because a case of wood bats cost the same as a premier composite bat like the Stealth and would probably last longer. Safety and effectiveness of play are the factors, and availability of ash is becoming a factor.

Romance and the safe, proper development of hitters should be separated when it comes to which bat you want to see your kids use.

[Keefj200]

The truth of the matter is only a statistical sliver of the kids playing youth baseball will ever play professional ball, thus negating the advantage they might gain from participating in wood bad leagues. The kids might as well use the best available bat within the legal limits. Tiger Woods uses the latest and greatest technologically advanced clubs on the market. The same goes for tennis. As great as Tiger is, he would be at a competitive disadvantage if he used the best clubs of 30 years ago. You cannot take a fork to a gun fight and expect to win.

[Cal Blue]

Well put!

... I believe the reason that the pitchers that make it far enough to get scouted and even drafted or recruited, is because for almost 10 years, they had to overcome the challenge of facing batters with huge sweet spots.

[Ozzy]

Well, I never liked metal bats from day one! I have always been a wood bat advocate so much so that I convinced my son to use wood bats when he was still in LL! He kept a metal bat in the bag along with 3 Louisville Sluggers and would alternate from time to time to mess with the defense. I remember an American Legion coach refusing to put him in the line up because he was using wood, even though he had 15 HR's and batting .398! Some people are just fools, I guess. Hell, I am so against the use of metal, I still use Persimmon woods (20 years old) for golf!

Do you feel your son’s performance was hampered in any way by his exclusive use of a wood bat? Yes, his statistics were wonderful, but I would always wonder how much they would have improved with a superior bat.
His use of wood allowed him to be a much more reliable hitter in the fact that he was able to place the ball pretty much where he wanted or the coaches wanted. He would bring out the metal now and then to fool the defense with distance. But only 3 HR's were from the metal. I was also able to teach him the importance of moving runners as opposed to "going yard" all the time as others were trying to do. It is what made him a better asset to his teams. Too bad he doesn't play anymore; he has no time for College ball with his studies.

[Cal Blue]

We did all of that same stuff--real batting--by practicing with wood and still going high-tech in the games. My son is the best two-strike batter and the best opposite field slugger among his teammates and peers due to his having to learn how to square up a ball properly by using wood on the side. He also hits more liners than the rest. And he uses gravity better.

It is just not the same here, I guess. There would never be a kid using wood at the tournament or high school level and making that competitive concession. Never. I am leading edge among the instructors around here, as far as emphasizing practicing with wood as early as possible. We have a rotation of several dozen wood bats of several brands and models--many of which are from major league issues that we acquired. But I would never let my guy go to the plate in a competitive setting with wood, unless it's the wood bat league.

And General Doubleday had virtually nothing to do with the invention of, or even the playing of a single game of baseball. :wink:

[finnerty]

There's more money in wood bats, if that's what you mean.
My son wears out a high-tech Easton composite in less than a year. With tax, they're now around $400.00 each. A case of pro stock wood bats is a little more than that. There is no way that you can break a case of pro stock wood bats in a year if you tried. It is not about economics, and has not been since metal bats hit $300.00.

[BrianC14]

My son wears out a high-tech Easton composite in less than a year. With tax, they're now around $400.00 each. A case of pro stock wood bats is a little more than that. There is no way that you can break a case of pro stock wood bats in a year if you tried. It is not about economics, and has not been since metal bats hit $300.00.

Agreed.

Long ago I should have corrected that statement to read "there's more money in metalbats".

I remember seeing a kid split (length wise) an Easton bat (the orange and blue one) that ran about $300. I handed it off to him as he returned to the dugout - he was nearly in tears; it was the first game he'd used it and his Dad had just bought it.

I'd seen another one - same model - that was sawn off right at the top of the tape. It look pretty new as well.

[okump96]

i had 2 TPX (the green one) explode and split from end to end in the same game. temps were mid 30s. watched a summer hs game and they had 3 bats give up because of heat temps were 95+

[torquer]

Well, I never liked metal bats from day one! I have always been a wood bat advocate so much so that I convinced my son to use wood bats when he was still in LL! He kept a metal bat in the bag along with 3 Louisville Sluggers and would alternate from time to time to mess with the defense. I remember an American Legion coach refusing to put him in the line up because he was using wood, even though he had 15 HR's and batting .398! Some people are just fools, I guess. Hell, I am so against the use of metal, I still use Persimmon woods (20 years old) for golf!

I hope that we get wood here in De. for HS. Its a whole lot more fun and safer whichever way you look at it. There's no doubt it changes the long ball game. I've only had one metal bat break in a game over at the junoir college. It was about 45 and shattered, sending one part to the second baseman. We have quite a few wood bat tournies at SATB and the bats usually just break in half or crack. I prefer the nice sound of the ball on a wood bat also.
Jess

[finnerty]

Agreed.

Long ago I should have corrected that statement to read "there's more money in metalbats".

I remember seeing a kid split (length wise) an Easton bat (the orange and blue one) that ran about $300. I handed it off to him as he returned to the dugout - he was nearly in tears; it was the first game he'd used it and his Dad had just bought it.

I'd seen another one - same model - that was sawn off right at the top of the tape. It look pretty new as well.
Any time those babies break or crack or even dent within a year, you return it and they lay a brand new one on you, almost no questions asked. We have the peculiarity of having Easton a few miles from here by the Van Nuys Airport. You just go to the factory and switch 'em out. Or, there are guys from Easton that I got to know that I see at tournaments and high school games through the years. You can walk up and hand a Easton guy a bat and he'll bring you a new one. One time a guy brought us a new one from his van. It's why we changed from Louisville to Easton. Louisville had to send it out, which takes over a week.

[BT_Blue]

I didnt know easton was based here in LA! Man I should take a trip next time Im up your way and see if they have any of there umpire stuff.

[finnerty]

I didnt know easton was based here in LA! Man I should take a trip next time Im up your way and see if they have any of there umpire stuff.
It's right off the 405 in the same neighborhood as the Budweiser Brewery.

[BT_Blue]

man, that sucks. I used to live not far from there.

[swmoump]

I organize and umpire seven wood bat tournaments a year. Four of those tournaments are geared for HS and involve about 8 games over two days. Summer tournaments have 14 games over three days and are geared for the 16-19 ages. We use Brett Bros composite wood. In four years of tournaments, we have broken TWO bats. These bats are great. The game is great with wood. Sure there is technology out there that will allow a kid to hit a ball 350 feet, but wood provides for a more enjoyable game.

[DP]

If I were to venture a guess, I bet its alot more difficult to make a wood bat that has a consistent weight to length ratio because of all the variables with wood, a natural substance. The amount of moisture in the wood, the closeness of the grain is different stands of timber, all are variables that must be hard to control. The idea is that the metal bat or composite bat have a performance parameter that is completely unlike wood. With the current ratio the bats perform more similar to wood(not exactly)but, I believe the advantage is, as someone mentioned, that you can get the ole "aluminum bat hit" when you get sawed off.

As an aside, I work an adult wooden bat league during the summer and I'll tell you, they go thru the bats. Some cost $35 to $75 and I have seen nights when they go thru 5 or 6 between the two teams. I believe I notice that some of these players don't follow the rule I was taught, label up(or down) aligns the grain properly and helps keep the bat from breaking. They don't seem to know or care.

PS-The game is better with wood.